Engine HP and chipping

[DDJC]

Hi again. We opted for the 150HP Fiat rather than 130. We will be towing my wife's Suzuki Ignis (only 860kg, space for four adult-sized adults and with its own towbar to manoeuvre its own little trailer!!)

My question is to ask what is the physical difference between the 130, 150 & 180 engines? Ours is a Rimor Europeo 87 plus, 3500, 7.25m with tow ball and it will always be close to 3500 weight incl nose weight.

Our dealer says he can chip our 150 to make it close to 180. Is this right and what do folk feel about chipping in general?

Thanks

Dave

 

[Revolvor]

Rather than increase your HP, I think your max weight of 3500 kg is more likely to be a problem. Have you weighed it fully loaded yet?

 

[MikeD]

There have been lots of threads regarding chipping of engines.

https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/search/66574823/?q=chipping&o=date&c[node]=72

But for me I probably would not on a modern engine.

 

[p-c]

Hi
I tow a Golf convertible, on an A frame, behind a 7 metre 3850 kg 2004 motorhome with the 2.8 127 HP engine. I considered chipping and did not bother because of the potential strain on the engine and parts.
I am glad I did not get it chipped, we have been as far as Naples and have not had real power issues. Heavens forbid, I have had to change down a gear, or two, on occasions, but that is what driving is about. Let alone spraying some oil around the engine.
Do not forget if you are towing you have a lower speed limit, you are driving a MH not a racing car, you are on holiday enjoy, not rush.
Have you actually driven this MH? I agree with Revolvor, your problem is going to be with payload not power.
Regards
p-c

 

[Lenny HB]

How old is the vehicle and how many miles has it done?

Basic differences between the engines, 130, has a standard turbo, 150 has a variable vane turbo, I think yet another different turo on the 180 & different pistons.

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[Gaston aires]

Forget chipping and change gear more often. Plenty of power on tap.
Phil

 

[nicholsong]

I do not know what the Dealer is offering to do, because there is a difference between fitting a microchip, which is pre-set to change the ECU control function in certain fixed parameters, and a re-mapping, where the parameters can be changed according to variables in a selected configuration to suit one's requirements.

For, example I have a FIAT Ducato with a 2003 2.8Jtd engine and gearbox which has a very high 5th gear. I had it re-mapped to give more torque to enable 5th to be held longer on inclines, and it works well. I was specific to the re-mapper that I only wanted enough to retain 5th and not to over-torque the engine, a chip does not have the flexibility.

One has to be careful not to put too much strain on the drive train and I achieve this by approaching longer medium hills at higher revs and it sails up with no strain, but on steeper hills or any time I feel the engine struggling I change down. I had it done some 15,000 miles ago and have had no problems.

I had mine done by Alex, trading as Boosters. It might be worth giving him a call with your specifications and requirements, as he seems very knowledgable and in my opinion a guy with an honest opinion. He met us at Peterborough Services, plugged in his box and the job was done in 1/2 hour.

Geoff

 

[DDJC]

Rather than increase your HP, I think your max weight of 3500 kg is more likely to be a problem. Have you weighed it fully loaded yet?

No. We got this model for its >600kg payload. The awning, towbar, ac and auto gearbox took 110kg. Our pax weight is about 230 fully fed. Leaves 260 ish for cargo.
I'm taking it to the weighbridge in Jan.

 

[DDJC]

Do not forget if you are towing you have a lower speed limit, you are driving a MH not a racing car, you are on holiday enjoy, not rush.
p-c

Oh god yeah! Totally agree. It isnt about pace. We like to get to the Adriatic in the summer and there are some big hills in the way!! I want to know it has the oomph to make it up and down the Alps towing.

 

[MikeD]

Try to get the weight on both axles.

The nose weight of the trailer might be somewhere approaching 100kg of your cargo load and that will sit on the back axle.

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[DDJC]

How old is the vehicle and how many miles has it done?

Basic differences between the engines, 130, has a standard turbo, 150 has a variable vane turbo, I think yet another different turo on the 180 & different pistons.

Cheers Lenny that was exactly what i wanted to know. So there is a mechanical difference. I don't think i will be chipping.

 

[DDJC]

Try to get the weight on both axles.

The nose weight of the trailer might be somewhere approaching 100kg of your cargo load and that will sit on the back axle.

Cheers Mike, during my caravanning years i always balanced weight over the axle. Our little trailer is the shortest two axle trailer on the market and with the car and a half tank of gas will weigh less than 1300kg.

 

[DDJC]

I do not know what the Dealer is offering to do, because there is a difference between fitting a microchip, which is pre-set to change the ECU control function in certain fixed parameters, and a re-mapping, where the parameters can be changed according to variables in a selected configuration to suit one's requirements.

For, example I have a FIAT Ducato with a 2003 2.8Jtd engine and gearbox which has a very high 5th gear. I had it re-mapped to give more torque to enable 5th to be held longer on inclines, and it works well. I was specific to the re-mapper that I only wanted enough to retain 5th and not to over-torque the engine, a chip does not have the flexibility.

One has to be careful not to put too much strain on the drive train and I achieve this by approaching longer medium hills at higher revs and it sails up with no strain, but on steeper hills or any time I feel the engine struggling I change down. I had it done some 15,000 miles ago and have had no problems.

I had mine done by Alex, trading as Boosters. It might be worth giving him a call with your specifications and requirements, as he seems very knowledgable and in my opinion a guy with an honest opinion. He met us at Peterborough Services, plugged in his box and the job was done in 1/2 hour.

Geoff

Very good advice Geoff. Thanks. I'm convinced. I've got the 150 engine so i wont chip up to 180.
Thanks all.

 

[DDJC]

How old is the vehicle and how many miles has it done?.

Six days and delivery mileage only!!

 

[Lenny HB]

Six days and delivery mileage only!!

You won't know for a while then, Euro 6 engine is very tight at first starts to loosen up at 4000 miles gets better at 7000 and runs well at 10,000 miles. Ours is 18 months old a bit of a dog at first but gradually got better fine by the time we reached 10,000 not noticed any more improvements between 10,000 and 14,000 which is current mileage.

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[Two on Tour]

Torque figures are the ones that you want to consider the most as that's the power that pulls you along not horse power.

 

[Trikeman]

Hi, our AutoSleeper PVC has the 150hp and I agree with the previous that ours is fantastic on hills with plenty of torque, just keeps pulling.
OK, it’s no box of fireworks ‘off the mark’ or 0-60 but that’s not what’s it’s about for us - we find the 150hp more than enough even when we’re loaded up and is a comfortable driving experience, yes ours got better as the mileage increased from 3.500 up to just over 7000 miles where it is now.
I’m happy without trying to increase anything.
Hope it helps.

Trikeman.

 

[Lenny HB]

I find the Euro 6 worse on hills than our previous Euro 5+, doesn't want to change down or keeps hunting between gears often end up flipping into manual mode.

 

[p-c]

I want to know it has the oomph to make it up and down the Alps towing

Hi
Nothing to do with chipping, but, it is the coming down that is hardest. there are not always convenient places to stop and let the bakes and clutch cool down.

our little trailer is the shortest two axle trailer on the market and with the car and a half tank of gas will weigh less than 1300kg.

This will effect the gross train weight. It will be the weight on the tow ball that will effect axle weights.
As you have not tried it yet, wait, then you can decide on chipping, rather than increasing the dealers profits now.
Regards
p-c

 

[robnchris]

We had our 130 Autotrail Apache remapped at 10.000 miles, before it was a bloody pain to drive, any hills and it was up and down the gearbox hard work plus fuel consumption was a dire 21-23 mpg.
After the re-map it's soars up hills, talking about the A38 through Cornwall no problems now and the mpg has increased to avg 27-29mpg.
Definitely recommended.

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[pappajohn]

While not directly disputing these claims regarding extra power and MPG it does seem a little odd that the manufacturers should turn out vans which may struggle to climb hills when fully loaded and at the same time only return low 20s MPG when with a retune they sail up the same hills and return high 20s MPG.
Surely it would be in the manufacturers own interest to provide them in that state of tune being far more (almost 40% more) economical which would be a guaranteed buying point for any fleet manager.
The initial inbuilt cost of a slightly heavier clutch would soon be offset by the enormous fleet fuel savings.
But no, the manufacturer insists on producing thirsty, underpowered vans......
I wonder why that should be ?

 

[MikeD]

I agree @pappajohn

You can't get something for nothing. Nothing in the engine changes so more power equals more fuel.

If it was so easy to get 50% extra mileage the makers would be doing it.

 

[Jake Royd]

Just to be clear.
Torque is the amount of turning effort the engine provides.(the amount of work done)
Power is the rate of doing work , so with more power you can do the same amount of work (the motorhome) but at a faster rate.

So a Honda 50 engine could be geared (ignoring friction) to move a motorhome but it could only do so very slowly because it does not produce much power.

 

[pappajohn]

Just to be clear.
Torque is the amount of turning effort the engine provides.(the amount of work done)
Power is the rate of doing work , so with more power you can do the same amount of work (the motorhome) but at a faster rate.

So a Honda 50 engine could be geared (ignoring friction) to move a motorhome but it could only do so very slowly because it does not produce much power.

Agreed, but to a man who works in a bank and knows nowt about vehicles except how to drive one, a porche is more powerful than a mondeo just because its faster... Not because it produces more torque and bhp.

 

[Cheshirecat57]

When we used to race cars:
BHP was how fast you hit the barrier!
Torque was how hard you hit the barrier!

Nonsense of course but always raised a wry smile

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[Downtontraveller]

If you are buying new chips do not forget the salt and vinegar

 

[138go]

I find the Euro 6 worse on hills than our previous Euro 5+, doesn't want to change down or keeps hunting between gears often end up flipping into manual mode.

I use the small button in front of the Auto select lever and put it in Hill Mode. It works very well and the engine Euro 5+ stays in lower gear longer. We have a friend who tows a Smart Car on a trailer and he leaves it in Hill Mode all the time while towing.

 

[Lenny HB]

I use the small button in front of the Auto select lever and put it in Hill Mode. It works very well and the engine Euro 5+ stays in lower gear longer. We have a friend who tows a Smart Car on a trailer and he leaves it in Hill Mode all the time while towing.

It helps but really just holds the gear longer, doesn't make it change down sooner on long gentle gradiants. It's better since it has done over 10k now at 14k no further improvements.

 

[tonyidle]

While not directly disputing these claims regarding extra power and MPG it does seem a little odd that the manufacturers should turn out vans which may struggle to climb hills when fully loaded and at the same time only return low 20s MPG when with a retune they sail up the same hills and return high 20s MPG.
Surely it would be in the manufacturers own interest to provide them in that state of tune being far more (almost 40% more) economical which would be a guaranteed buying point for any fleet manager.
The initial inbuilt cost of a slightly heavier clutch would soon be offset by the enormous fleet fuel savings.
But no, the manufacturer insists on producing thirsty, underpowered vans......
I wonder why that should be ?

The ECU mapping carried out by the manufacturer at the design stage is used without change for every identical vehicle. It's based on the intended use of the vehicle and has to account for the many variations in that use, assume the worst of the driver, and assume it will be used under less than perfect conditions. It will also take no account of minor variations between supposedly identical engine assemblies. Roughly the same can be said of re-chipping where one set of parameters are programmed and the chip is then fitted to any engine, without change, that it was designed for. The best re-mapping is carried out in conjunction with a rolling road, at least when the programme is being designed, and the changes decided upon are written to the engine ECU. It will also include fine tuning the new programme to suit the specific engine to which it is being installed. There is no reason why the manufacturers base (and necessarily generic) programming cannot be improved.

 

[Blackadder]

Tonyidle is correct except that he omitted to point out that the manufacturer also has to conform to all sorts of emissions regulations like Euro 6. This is more important to them than ultimate performance in terms of peak power, torque or fuel economy. It's all a compromise but with regulatory conformance at the top of the list (unless you are Volkswagen who alledgedly found a way of cheating the tests - I am led to believe that "legalised" VW diesels are much less fuel efficient and produce less power). I hope that's answered Papajohn's question.
As for the whole chipping and/or remapping question, I'm surprised no-one has mentioned talking to your insurance company. Most policies have a clause about "modifications", especially those intended to increase performance...