Strange battery problem

[engelside]

Only just got round to asking this question.

We were up in Scotland a couple of weeks ago and had an issue with leisure battery.

Driven from Wiltshire over a couple of days - so around 600-700 miles - 1st night at side of road on layby. On arrival we stayed off site and were planning a paddle the next day so put my hand held VHF on charge. I think I also had my garmin watch on charge and possibly my phone as well.

Evening was spent eating and reading so only really using (LED) lights and (gas) heating (electric fan of course on heating).

In the morning I put heating on and it didn't light. I then noticed that the control panel was indicating no charge in in the battery and the Solar charging wasn't working. Lights were working OK but I guess they will work with very little let in the battery.

I ran the engine for 10 minutes or so and this seemed to charge the battery a little (the Solar indicator then came on). After our paddle we were back in the van for late afternoon, so still daylight, and the Solar LED was on. However this state of affairs only lasted around 10 minutes or so before battery (appeared) drained.

We went onto a site for a couple of days and left on hook up all the time. This seems to have worked as the next night we were off site and no issues with battery!

The battery is about a year old so I wouldn't expect it to have failed, so I am scratching me head about what might have happened. Could the 2/3 items left on charge overnight have caused it maybe?

Any ideas welcome.

Thanks

Martin

 

[Kirsten]

Did you leave the fridge on battery? Our old van didnt work on battery unless the engine was running but the new moho does ...

 

[engelside]

12v fridge only runs when engine running.

 

[SandraL]

Could it be you left home with a poor charge in the battery.
If there was no or little charge from the engine you just used up the available charge in battery.
This time of year, especially up north limited daylight so minimal charge from solar?
Mains hookup then recharged battery.
I would use voltmeter to check leisure battery voltage gets to at least 14v when engine running.
Even then it may not fully charge leisure battery depending on type, agm gel etc.
Wiring on some vans between engine and leisure battery can be somewhat skinny, many people fit a battery to battery charger to improve leisure battery charging when engine running.

 

[engelside]

Could it be you left home with a poor charge in the battery.
If there was no or little charge from the engine you just used up the available charge in battery.
This time of year, especially up north limited daylight so minimal charge from solar?
Mains hookup then recharged battery.
I would use voltmeter to check leisure battery voltage gets to at least 14v when engine running.
Even then it may not fully charge leisure battery depending on type, agm gel etc.
Wiring on some vans between engine and leisure battery can be somewhat skinny, many people fit a battery to battery charger to improve leisure battery charging when engine running.

Well I cant be sure but it had been on the drive for about 5 days since the last time I had driven it. I did put it on hook up for a good few hours before we left though and with the drive I would have expected it to be in pretty good condition.

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[PhilandMena]

Your symptoms are those of a battery that has used up all of its capacity and has had its day. The life of a leisure battery is determined by its capacity and number of cycles (Plus other stuff but I will try and keep it simple) . So, a half decent Lead Acid leisure battery will be something like 200 cycles @50% D.O.D. This means you can discharge it 50% of its total capacity and fully charge again 200 times. So, a 100 AH battery can be discharged to 50AH and you can do this 200m times. if you discharge it below 50% you will not get the 200 cycles, the further you discharge it the quicker you use up its capacity. When the capacity is used up it may give a reading of 12,7 V. or higher but this will be very short lived and may even be coming from a solar panel input.
Fairly certain its goosed and has been subject to misuse/overuse. I might be wrong as I'm making some assumptions on the little information available.

 

[PhilandMena]

Well I cant be sure but it had been on the drive for about 5 days since the last time I had driven it. I did put it on hook up for a good few hours before we left though and with the drive I would have expected it to be in pretty good condition.

No where near long enough ! It could take up to 36 hrs to charge a depleted battery ?

 

[Lyrick]

12v fridge only runs when engine running.

That's what I thought , but mine , a new Pilote , will run on battery when the engines not running. Apparently it's meant to but only for about 30 minutes and is not uncommon on some European makes

Patrick

 

[engelside]

Your symptoms are those of a battery that has used up all of its capacity and has had its day. The life of a leisure battery is determined by its capacity and number of cycles (Plus other stuff but I will try and keep it simple) . So, a half decent Lead Acid leisure battery will be something like 200 cycles @50% D.O.D. This means you can discharge it 50% of its total capacity and fully charge again 200 times. So, a 100 AH battery can be discharged to 50AH and you can do this 200m times. if you discharge it below 50% you will not get the 200 cycles, the further you discharge it the quicker you use up its capacity. When the capacity is used up it may give a reading of 12,7 V. or higher but this will be very short lived and may even be coming from a solar panel input.
Fairly certain its goosed and has been subject to misuse/overuse. I might be wrong as I'm making some assumptions on the little information available.

Hmm. Food for thought there.

How does that work if it is constantly being charged via the solar panel though? Since the battery was replaced in September 2019 we have used the van pretty frequently apart from the few months early in the lockdown (Apr to July).

Apart from 4 longer journeys of a week or more we have used it once a week to go swimming - before lockdown we would park at the lake overnight - but since just to go to the lake.

If it is partially discharged I am assuming that the 200 cycles is increased somewhat - otherwise batteries would need replacing pretty frequently wouldn't they?

What I do want to do is to get a better indication via the control panel as to the state of the battery - a single LED at 12v-13v-14v doesn't really give a reasonable indication of what charge it has does it?

 

[engelside]

Fairly certain its goosed and has been subject to misuse/overuse.

I would be interested if you could expand on that comment. Only had the van just over a year and learning all the time and would appreciate a better understanding of the whole leisure battery issue.

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[Spriddler]

- a single LED at 12v-13v-14v doesn't really give a reasonable indication of what charge it has does it?

No. You cannot assess the amount of usable power (capacity) in the battery with an LED indicator or a meter.
The battery voltage indicator may indicate fully charged but it will drop very quickly when a load is applied to a knackered battery.

 

[PhilandMena]

I would be interested if you could expand on that comment. Only had the van just over a year and learning all the time and would appreciate a better understanding of the whole leisure battery issue.

OK I will attempt to do that! The learning curve your on is something we all are subject to and when you get into Leisure batteries you will understand just how shoddy and misleading the industry can be. There is no national or international standard to define what a leisure battery is and what conditions it must meet and so the industry, IMO takes advantage of this by producing a shed load of crap starter batteries and labelling them as leisure batteries. (In essence, the two behave differently, a starter battery releases a significant currant in a very short time whilst a leisure battery release much lower current over a longer period and requires thicker lead plates ) Some battery manufacturers are better than others and do produce some decent leisure batteries. Varta, Excide, Bosch to name a few. (I'm talking Lead Acid here, not AGM or Gel). I'm not even sure what type of battery you have fitted and how its being used and the fact that its only one year old is meaning less if it has been abused/misused.
You need to establish the AH rating and type of battery you have. I'm assuming its Lead Acid. ( There are different charging profiles for each type and some can safely be discharged lower than others.) From there you can establish how much you can let it discharge before topping it up again. No more than 50% of its total AH and ideally no more than 20%. To achieve this you should understand how much power your appliances are using and there are devices on the market to aid you in this and they may even be in your motorhome's display panel. (I don't know what you have ?). Most seasoned M'homers get Solar Panels fitted, the more solar the better as this will replenish the batteries when there is sunlight. I do not know what draw you have been putting on your battery but it sounds to me from the symptoms your displaying that you have allowed your battery to become significantly discharged. I suspect the heater fan will have quite a bearing on this. On my Webasto Diesel heater the fan itself accounts for around 8-10 Amps when |I have the heating on.
There is an easy way to find out if you battery is goosed. Put it on a charge for at least 24 hrs, let it rest for an hour or so then try running your services when its dark and see how long they last. It the battery is dead within a few hours or less it's almost certainly used up its capacity.

Also, have a read of this, which you may find of interest about then battery marketplace.

http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/campaign-for-battery-change.php

 

[engelside]

OK I will attempt to do that! The learning curve your on is something we all are subject to and when you get into Leisure batteries you will understand just how shoddy and misleading the industry can be. There is no national or international standard to define what a leisure battery is and what conditions it must meet and so the industry, IMO takes advantage of this by producing a shed load of crap starter batteries and labelling them as leisure batteries. (In essence, the two behave differently, a starter battery releases a significant currant in a very short time whilst a leisure battery release much lower current over a longer period and requires thicker lead plates ) Some battery manufacturers are better than others and do produce some decent leisure batteries. Varta, Excide, Bosch to name a few. (I'm talking Lead Acid here, not AGM or Gel). I'm not even sure what type of battery you have fitted and how its being used and the fact that its only one year old is meaning less if it has been abused/misused.
You need to establish the AH rating and type of battery you have. I'm assuming its Lead Acid. ( There are different charging profiles for each type and some can safely be discharged lower than others.) From there you can establish how much you can let it discharge before topping it up again. No more than 50% of its total AH and ideally no more than 20%. To achieve this you should understand how much power your appliances are using and there are devices on the market to aid you in this and they may even be in your motorhome's display panel. (I don't know what you have ?). Most seasoned M'homers get Solar Panels fitted, the more solar the better as this will replenish the batteries when there is sunlight. I do not know what draw you have been putting on your battery but it sounds to me from the symptoms your displaying that you have allowed your battery to become significantly discharged. I suspect the heater fan will have quite a bearing on this. On my Webasto Diesel heater the fan itself accounts for around 8-10 Amps when |I have the heating on.
There is an easy way to find out if you battery is goosed. Put it on a charge for at least 24 hrs, let it rest for an hour or so then try running your services when its dark and see how long they last. It the battery is dead within a few hours or less it's almost certainly used up its capacity.

Also, have a read of this, which you may find of interest about then battery marketplace.

http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/campaign-for-battery-change.php

Thanks for that, I will have a proper reads later.

 

[Richard n Ann]

If you get a good battery monitor you know exactly how your battery is performing. In your case you would use the amp hour counter, after you reset it, it counts the amp hours in or out of the battery so you know the capacity. Also gives % discharge, time left to discharge/charge, starter battery voltage and other useful information

Clipper BM-1 Battery Monitor - Nasa Marine Instruments

Battery monitor 12V

www.nasamarine.com

 

[denisejoe]

What’s the amp/hour rating on the battery

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[engelside]

What’s the amp/hour rating on the battery

Can't remember - will look tomorrow

 

[Lenny HB]

Does sound like the battery, if its an AMG doesn't surprise me it's only lasted a year.

 

[TheBig1]

a pretty common fault is a relay failing leaving the leisure battery connected to the engine battery, or the fridge. If this happens and the fridge relay sticks open it can very quickly flatten a 100 ah battery. Flatten it too low and it will be damaged, some times terminally

At this time of year a 100 watt solar panel may struggle to produce 1amp, so zero chance of recharging that flat battery

The standard alternator on the van is designed to replace the charge used to start the engine fast, but will soon drop down to low single figures of amps it puts out. A few hours driving will put some charge in, but nowhere near enough to recharge the leisure battery. That is why many people have B2B or battery to battery smart chargers fitted. But be warned, running a diesel engine on tickover for hours will damage your engine. It needs to be driven under load to heat up correctly

 

[engelside]

Platinum Leisure plus 100Ah battery.

Their spec says Occasional or weekly use, 50/50 on/off grid. Probably doesn't cover how we wnt to use van. For instance the plan for this year (put off until next year) was to travel up to Lofoten in Norway over a period of 4-6 weeks spending as much time as possible off grid. Doesn't look as if this is the battery or us.

 

[Richard n Ann]

Doesn't look as if this is the battery or us.

You've got 50ah useable then, depends what you want to use from it and how much solar you have. When the sun's out we hardly need a battery, 10ah would probably suffice.

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[TerryL]

Not really being able to tell the overall condition of your battery makes suggestions difficult. If it is indeed "goosed" then whatever you do is going to be irrelevant - you need to replace it and for regular off-grid I would recommend fitting a second battery, buy them as a matched pair and as big as will fit in the space available. If you cannot get a second battery to fit consider placing it somewhere else - I had a new under floor battery box fitted (access from inside the van).

For the use you have/intend I would go for a B2B charger, which means that you can be sure the leisure battery is getting the best charge it can whilst you are driving.

Finally, assuming your van doesn't already have the facility, a battery master which tops up the engine battery when the leisure is fully charged, so that provided the solar is supplying enough power it keeps the engine battery healthy.

We've got all of these and never have a problem with 12v power, not that we are big users of it anyway, regardless of if we are touring, staying put for a while or the van is just in storage.

 

[engelside]

Not really being able to tell the overall condition of your battery makes suggestions difficult. If it is indeed "goosed" then whatever you do is going to be irrelevant - you need to replace it and for regular off-grid I would recommend fitting a second battery, buy them as a matched pair and as big as will fit in the space available. If you cannot get a second battery to fit consider placing it somewhere else - I had a new under floor battery box fitted (access from inside the van).

For the use you have/intend I would go for a B2B charger, which means that you can be sure the leisure battery is getting the best charge it can whilst you are driving.

Finally, assuming your van doesn't already have the facility, a battery master which tops up the engine battery when the leisure is fully charged, so that provided the solar is supplying enough power it keeps the engine battery healthy.

We've got all of these and never have a problem with 12v power, not that we are big users of it anyway, regardless of if we are touring, staying put for a while or the van is just in storage.

Thanks for that. I had been considering if it is possible to fit a 2nd battery but it isn't a straightforward job I think as there isn't any room in battery compartment for a second one.

It's a very steep learning curve re van electrics and there seems to be plenty of contrary views out there to read and assimilate

 

[Neil S]

Platinum Leisure plus 100Ah battery.

Their spec says Occasional or weekly use, 50/50 on/off grid. Probably doesn't cover how we wnt to use van. For instance the plan for this year (put off until next year) was to travel up to Lofoten in Norway over a period of 4-6 weeks spending as much time as possible off grid. Doesn't look as if this is the battery or us.

I have two of the same and managed a night of grid with the Truma heating on low and an hour of TV .
the battery level was down to 12.5volt the next morning with everything switched of

 

[cmcardle75]

If you're planning to off grid for weeks at a time, you will need, at a minimum, a B2B charger. This will put in many times the power of the cheap split charge relays converters put in (if they even bothered) when driving. 10 minutes running the engine at idle with a split charge relay will probably put less than 0.5% of charge into your leisure battery.

On top of that you should have as many solar panels that will fit on the roof. In general, series connection through an MPPT controller will give the best output in the shoulder season and you might even get a little in winter, but unlikely to be enough to cover your usage.

If you are intending to use it in winter, but not travel much, you can't square that circle without some external help. You'll need to plug in occasionally or get a generator of some sort. If you get a generator, you need to set it up so that it is charging your battery at a high rate. You don't want it sitting there making noise and wasting fuel whilst powering a tiny 2A charger. You want something that can dump bulk charge current at the maximum recommended rate for your battery, which depends on its chemistry.

Additionally, 100Ah is not enough for seriously off-gridding. You'll need to at least double it. Ideally, you'd have lithium (LiFePO4) batteries and chargers to suit, but the batteries are extremely expensive. However, you do only need half as much nominal capacity for Lithium, as you can use 100% of it, not just 50% as for flooded lead acids.

 

[PhilandMena]

Amazing how quickly others can advise you to spend your money don't you think !
Lofoten islands are on my bucket list, a fantastic place to visit and even in the height of summer the days I believe can be shortish. Anyway, Looks like your going to purchase one or two new leisure batteries. Assuming you want to stay with lead acid, go with a manufacturer who produces his own batteries and not some far eastern crap. One of the best indicators of how good a Lead Acid batter is, is weight! the more lead the better the performance. The battery you have quoted weighs 22.5 KG is rated as class C by the NCC verified battery scheme (Which is never to be trusted). Class C is a starter battery ?. The battery is rated at 70 Cycles @50% D.O.D
For a leisure battery this is about as much use as a chocolate tea pot IMO.
Consider the Excide ET650 leisure battery 26.5 KG. 360 Cycles @50%D.O.D. or the Varta LFD 90 which is popular with some members on here and rated at 200 Cycles @50% D.O.D.
If you can put two of these batteries together you will double the amount of time you can spend off grid and as you want to do up to 4 weeks in Lofoten islands I would add a shed load of solar power too. A minimum of 250 W more would be even better.
This would then be similar to my set up. I do not bother with a battery to battery charger as my starter and leisure batteries receive a charge from my alternator when the engine is running and also from my solar power regulator when it is not. Hope this helps a little. Your leisure battery is definitely at the bottom end of the market place and probably explains why you didn't get a full year out of it.

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[cmcardle75]

Oh, and many gas heaters can be run with the fan off. That is highly recommended when on battery power.

 

[engelside]

Oh, and many gas heaters can be run with the fan off. That is highly recommended when on battery power.

It's a Truma Combiu, don't think it will run with the fan off. However if you can get the temperature setting right the fan seems to go into a "low blow" state - which I am assuming will use less power.

 

[clanjones]

I was a bit paranoid on battery usage and bought the BM1 battery monitor which uses an app via Bluetooth. Advantage of it is no wiring inbtovthe hab area if the can apart from the shunt which is next to the battery.

<Broken link removed>[/URL]

I think it is a great bit if kit and allows you monitor what appliances are using what current.

 

[engelside]

Amazing how quickly others can advise you to spend your money don't you think !
Lofoten islands are on my bucket list, a fantastic place to visit and even in the height of summer the days I believe can be shortish. Anyway, Looks like your going to purchase one or two new leisure batteries. Assuming you want to stay with lead acid, go with a manufacturer who produces his own batteries and not some far eastern crap. One of the best indicators of how good a Lead Acid batter is, is weight! the more lead the better the performance. The battery you have quoted weighs 22.5 KG is rated as class C by the NCC verified battery scheme (Which is never to be trusted). Class C is a starter battery ?. The battery is rated at 70 Cycles @50% D.O.D
For a leisure battery this is about as much use as a chocolate tea pot IMO.
Consider the Excide ET650 leisure battery 26.5 KG. 360 Cycles @50%D.O.D. or the Varta LFD 90 which is popular with some members on here and rated at 200 Cycles @50% D.O.D.
If you can put two of these batteries together you will double the amount of time you can spend off grid and as you want to do up to 4 weeks in Lofoten islands I would add a shed load of solar power too. A minimum of 250 W more would be even better.
This would then be similar to my set up. I do not bother with a battery to battery charger as my starter and leisure batteries receive a charge from my alternator when the engine is running and also from my solar power regulator when it is not. Hope this helps a little. Your leisure battery is definitely at the bottom end of the market place and probably explains why you didn't get a full year out of it.

Thanks for that response.

Actually Lofoten gets 24 hours of Sun from about end of May until mid-August so that will help.

I am certainly going to take my time before purchasing anything, and as I mentioned above will explore how I get a second battery in.

It does have solar already, not sure what it is rated at but will look at that.

I have read varying reports about the clipper monitor mentioned above re how accurate the battery state report is but it does sound useful to work out how much power I am drawing in varous scenario (and how much is going back in via solar/driving), again I think more research required.

 

[cmcardle75]

It's a Truma Combiu, don't think it will run with the fan off. However if you can get the temperature setting right the fan seems to go into a "low blow" state - which I am assuming will use less power.

Apparently, that model averages around 1.2A of 12V whilst the heater is on. Over 24 hours that would be almost 30Ah, more than half your battery's nominal capacity to 50%, assuming it is as new. With lights, TV etc., I wouldn't expect your battery to last more than a day off grid without some means of recharging.

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