More evidence hydrogen fuelled vans could power future motorhomes? (1 Viewer)

[Gromett]

VW haven't been great at picking the best bets...

None of the majors have.

I am not putting Quantumscape forward because of their VW connection. Quantumscape have an interesting ceramic separator that makes solid lithium anodes possible.
If it pans out which so far looks possible, it will be a real game changer. The financial backing from VW is important from an economic sustainability point of view and for testing and validation.

I followed quantumscape since they came out of hiding and followed them as closely as possible. Although I am sceptical of solid state batteries, these guys are at the stage of pre-production test cells of a size suitable for cars. So much further on than anyone else has been to this point.

 

[Guigsy]

The press release QuantumScape put out only a few weeks ago for their 4 layer cells doesn't sound like it'll be an automotive product for a good few years yet:

QuantumScape starts testing ten-layered solid-state cells | electrive.com

www.electrive.com

 

[Gromett]

The press release QuantumScape put out only a few weeks ago for their 4 layer cells doesn't sound like it'll be an automotive product for a good few years yet:

QuantumScape starts testing ten-layered solid-state cells | electrive.com

www.electrive.com

Did you read the article? They did 10 layer cells in H1 2021. These are in car size cell size of 70x85mm format. Note that other solid state cells are generally in the <10mm x <10mm range.

So much for the preface. In a quarterly report, QuantumScape now makes public that it is making progress with multi-layer cells. Specifically, the developer mentions a ten-layer battery cell in the 70×85 mm format already being tested. The report says: “These commercially relevant format cells are being tested at 1C and C/3 (one and three hour charge and discharge rates) under our standard temperatures (25 °C) and pressure (3.4 physical atmosphere) – conditions that we believe are relevant for automotive applications.”

The roadmap for production is for 2025 which is pretty fast for battery tech.

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[Coolcats]

The press release QuantumScape put out only a few weeks ago for their 4 layer cells doesn't sound like it'll be an automotive product for a good few years yet:

QuantumScape starts testing ten-layered solid-state cells | electrive.com

www.electrive.com

In the mean time Graphene will have started to make further developments as will Hydrogen, it’s exciting times.

 

[Gromett]

In the mean time Graphene will have started to make further developments as will Hydrogen, it’s exciting times.

Graphene now? Still waiting for any major commercial benefits in products that can't be done using other more practical methods.
Graphene still isn't manufactured at commercial scale at a reasonable price.

No doubt niche uses for graphene will be found like the 3M graphene flakes being used in tennis rackets for marketing reasons

One area that does seem very useful for graphene is in certain lubricants. But other than that, I haven't seen any game changers at anything but the microscopic scale.

 

[Coolcats]

Graphene now? Still waiting for any major commercial benefits in products that can't be done using other more practical methods.
Graphene still isn't manufactured at commercial scale at a reasonable price.

No doubt niche uses for graphene will be found like the 3M graphene flakes being used in tennis rackets for marketing reasons

One area that does seem very useful for graphene is in certain lubricants. But other than that, I haven't seen any game changers at anything but the microscopic scale.

Yup Graphene I thought given you like to be ahead of the curve you would be keeping your eye on this one

"In the field of energy storage everyone knows there is a problem with battery storage"

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[Gromett]

Yup Graphene I thought given you like to be ahead of the curve you would be keeping your eye on this one

View attachment 528640

"In the field of energy storage everyone knows there is a problem with battery storage"

You really, really made me laugh with this one.

He had this to say about batteries....

It's difficult to get energy in and out of batteries quickly, so for your initial burst of acceleration, if you had for example an electric Ferrari, then would you get 0-60 in under a second? It's hard to imagine you could get that from a battery. A super capacitor would be the way to get that kick of energy you need to accelerate quickly.

Amazing he could be wrong even at a time when the Model S had already been released. You do know that one of Musk's degrees was in physics and he started doing his thesis on Super capacitors because he believed at the time this was the way forward for electric cars?
Telsa has a battery powered car that costs a fraction of a Ferrari and is faster than any other production car bar one.

The rest of the video was wishful thinking. Sewing graphene into fabrics etc.

The energy density of commercial batteries have increased from 200 to 300Wh/Kg since this video was made in 2014... Graphene is still pretty much only a novelty item in the grand scheme of things still.

 

[Gromett]

Coolcats My primary qualification is in electrical engineering. As part of this I studied capacitors and their design, operation and the underlying physics. Capacitors (both normal or super) have a single characteristic that makes them totally unsuitable for cars in my opinion.
Whilst a batteries voltage is related to it state of charge loosely. A capacitors voltage is directly and proportionately related to it's stage of charge. A capacitor specified for 100V will only have 100V across it's terminals when 100% charged. At 50% charge it will have a voltage of 50V.
This is irrespective of the materials used for the dielectric material, the size of the plates, the distance between the plates or any other parameter.

The formula for this is Q = CV Where Q is the charge in Coulombs, C is the capacitance and V is the voltage. Transpose the formula and you can see that in a fixed capacitor as Q falls, V will fall proportionally.

 

[CazPaul]

I notice the MD of Concorde Reisemobile say at the minute he only sees hydrogen as powering their vehicles in future.

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[Coolcats]

You really, really made me laugh with this one.

He had this to say about batteries....


Amazing he could be wrong even at a time when the Model S had already been released. You do know that one of Musk's degrees was in physics and he started doing his thesis on Super capacitors because he believed at the time this was the way forward for electric cars?

As far as I can see on the internet Musk has undergraduate degrees, a thesis is Doctoral level study, many people start out on the long Doctoral journey a large percentage never finish I assume Musk is in this category so starting on a thesis does not give him the qualification! he still only has two undergrad degrees.

The man is immensely rich but why you keep brining in Tesla and Musk in to every other post is baffling, he did not invent the electric car, he did not invent space travel, he has brought a car company to the market place that was unencumbered by ICE technology.

You should know that the origins of Tesla came from AC propulsions

 

[Coolcats]

Coolcats My primary qualification is in electrical engineering. As part of this I studied capacitors and their design, operation and the underlying physics. Capacitors (both normal or super) have a single characteristic that makes them totally unsuitable for cars in my opinion.
Whilst a batteries voltage is related to it state of charge loosely. A capacitors voltage is directly and proportionately related to it's stage of charge. A capacitor specified for 100V will only have 100V across it's terminals when 100% charged. At 50% charge it will have a voltage of 50V.
This is irrespective of the materials used for the dielectric material, the size of the plates, the distance between the plates or any other parameter.

The formula for this is Q = CV Where Q is the charge in Coulombs, C is the capacitance and V is the voltage. Transpose the formula and you can see that in a fixed capacitor as Q falls, V will fall proportionally.

Good qualification to have, and good to see others researching materials such as Graphene will potentially offer the market place

 

[Gromett]

As far as I can see on the internet Musk has undergraduate degrees, a thesis is Doctoral level study, many people start out on the long Doctoral journey a large percentage never finish I assume Musk is in this category so starting on a thesis does not give him the qualification! he still only has two undergrad degrees.

Yes he quit his degree progress to start zip2 and paypal. He came back to cars quickly after. The reason I mention it is because he had studied super capacitors and discounted them as suitable for cars even with further development. He even bought Maxwell who are the biggest super capacitor company in the world. He bought them for their dry electrode technology. Here is how important super capacitors are though. He recently sold the super capacitor part of the business along with the name Maxwell. Telsa are out of the super capacitor business.

The man is immensely rich but why you keep brining in Tesla and Musk in to every other post is baffling, he did not invent the electric car, he did not invent space travel, he has brought a car company to the market place that was unencumbered by ICE technology.

I don't bring him into every other post, only where his technological lead shows where the market it heading. He is an incredibly intelligent man and when he says something related to the science or engineering it is worth listening to. This is not just my opinion, it is the opinion of the experts who have worked with him. People like Tom Mueller, Martin Eberhard and Marc Tarpennin. None of which work for him anymore but have plenty of good words about him on his engineering chops.

You should know that the origins of Tesla came from AC propulsions

No it didn't. Tesla was a separate company. Tesla tried to use AC propulsions motor and controller but couldn't get it to work reliably and ended up developing their own and dropping AC Propulsions technology.

Martin Eberhard and Marc Tarpenning had both taken test drives in the lithium-ion battery powered revision of the AC Propulsion tzero before founding Tesla Motors. Martin Eberhard encouraged Tom Gage and Alan Cocconi to move their prototype tzero into production. When they declined, in favor of working on their electrified Scion xB called the eBox, Martin Eberhard and Marc Tarpenning incorporated Tesla Motors to pursue the idea of building an electric roadster in the spirit of the tzero. Elon Musk later test drove the tzero as well, and he also encouraged AC Propulsion to commercialize the vehicle. Tom Gage again deferred, but put Elon Musk in contact with Martin Eberhard which led to Musk becoming Tesla Motors' first major investor through Series A funding.

Before Tesla Motors developed its Roadster's proprietary powertrain, the company licensed AC Propulsion's EV Power System design and Reductive Charging patent which covers integration of the charging electronics with the inverter, thus reducing mass, complexity, and cost. Tesla then designed and built its own power electronics, motor, and other drivetrain components that incorporated this licensed technology from AC Propulsion. Given the extensive redevelopment of the vehicle, Tesla Motors no longer licenses any proprietary technology from AC Propulsion.

You may find this an interesting watch.

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[Gromett]

he did not invent the electric car

Without Tesla/Musk there would not be an EV market now. The majors had all but killed them by gutting the californian regulations on air quality relating to the car industry. From then on the car industry just made what is known as compliance cars. The bare minimum needed to pass the regulations. These didn't sell, no one wanted them except for the fruit cakes, environmental nutters and hollywood actors wanting to pronounce their environmental qualitifications.

 

[Coolcats]

Yes he quit his degree progress to start zip2 and paypal. He came back to cars quickly after. The reason I mention it is because he had studied super capacitors and discounted them as suitable for cars even with further development. He even bought Maxwell who are the biggest super capacitor company in the world. He bought them for their dry electrode technology. Here is how important super capacitors are though. He recently sold the super capacitor part of the business along with the name Maxwell. Telsa are out of the super capacitor business.


I don't bring him into every other post, only where his technological lead shows where the market it heading. He is an incredibly intelligent man and when he says something related to the science or engineering it is worth listening to. This is not just my opinion, it is the opinion of the experts who have worked with him. People like Tom Mueller, Martin Eberhard and Marc Tarpennin. None of which work for him anymore but have plenty of good words about him on his engineering chops.


No it didn't. Tesla was a separate company. Tesla tried to use AC propulsions motor and controller but couldn't get it to work reliably and ended up developing their own and dropping AC Propulsions technology.



You may find this an interesting watch.

The point is all development comes out of failure so musk did not invent electric cars he built on what went before (based on technology that is now available) as he is doing with his rockets but given the hero worship he revives you would think he has

 

[Gromett]

The point is all development comes out of failure so musk did not invent electric cars he built on what went before (based on technology that is now available) as he is doing with his rockets but given the hero worship he revives you would think he has

You could say that about anyone. What Musk is doing is pushing things ahead very fast that everyone else said wasn't possible. It is most suitable expressed by Isaac Newton in 1675 when he said "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants."
Would you take away Newtons work just because he built on what had gone before?

The electric car industry had died with the EV1 when the environmental regulations were gutted. None of the ICE manufacturers wanted to do EV's and they fought against them. Back then this was what you got if you bought an EV.
With a 50 Mile range and max speed of 50mph it was the leading EV at the time in the UK. Do you think we would have seen the Taycan, E-tron, iPace or any of the other majors getting into EV's like they are today? Or would they still be pushing back against them like they did back then?

Musk pushed and succeeded because of new inventions and developments in motors, battery, electronics and software. His EV's have succeeded against the lobbying, FUD and other tactics of the established industries. Prior to Musk electric cars were slow, often likened to milk floats and golf carts, ugly and the unwanted step child of the motoring industry. He made them fast, exciting and sexy. You obviously don't like him and I can understand that, his personality isn't exactly likeable. But to say he hasn't done something big, new and exciting is just plain wrong.

On rockets. The experts said a private company couldn't do rockets, it was just to big, complex and expensive for private industry. Then he did it. They then said you couldn't land an orbital rocket and still have enough useful payload. He went and did it. Then they said you couldn't re-use a 1st stage, he went and did it.
They then said you that it was impossible to build a fully re-usable rocket (2nd stage etc). He is building it now. Would you bet against him.

As for doing new stuff. No one has ever built a Full Flow Staged Combustion engine successfully before. It has been tried by the Americans and the Russians and they both failed. Musk has actually built dozens of them and flown them.

The reason I like him is he goes back to the fundamentals of physics and says, does physics prevent this from happening? If not then it is an engineering, material science or logistics problems how can we solve this problem. He then gets the best people he can find to solve that problem and gives them the resources to do it, even if those resources are the last cent from his own pocket.

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[Gromett]

Coolcats Check this out.

The “Impossible” Tech Behind SpaceX’s New Engine

Followers of the Church of Elon will no doubt already be aware of SpaceX’s latest technical triumph: the test firing of the first full-scale Raptor engine. Of course, it was hardly a secret. …

hackaday.com

Tell me Musk hasn't done anything new?

 

[Gromett]

Hydrogen lobbyist quits, slams oil companies’ “false claims” about blue hydrogen

Recent studies have questioned blue hydrogen’s low-carbon bona fides.

arstechnica.com

 

[Coolcats]

Hydrogen lobbyist quits, slams oil companies’ “false claims” about blue hydrogen

Recent studies have questioned blue hydrogen’s low-carbon bona fides.

arstechnica.com

…yes Gromett blue hydrogen was in the Guardian yesterday in many ways it is no different to the energy companies green washing stating they provide green energy times are changing and we will have green hydrogen. But please keep being the anti hydrogen cheerleader

in the meantime serious investment is going into hydrogen development.

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[robnchris]

Until this battery technology is sorted out surely a Hybrid vehicle is the answer, battery whilst driving in built up areas keeping the towns and cities air clean and the ICE engine when more speed is required on the motorways etc etc.

 

[Gromett]

Until this battery technology is sorted out surely a Hybrid vehicle is the answer, battery whilst driving in built up areas keeping the towns and cities air clean and the ICE engine when more speed is required on the motorways etc etc.

That is why hybrids are still allowed for another 5 years. 2030 for ICE and 2035 for hybrids. 15 years should be enough time to get this sorted out. Then another 10+ years after that the second hand market can keep us going for those small number of people who absolutely cannot use a battery. That takes us to 2045+.

If you look at where batteries cars have come in the last 10 years then project forwards there are no issues as far as I can see.

 

[Coolcats]

Until this battery technology is sorted out surely a Hybrid vehicle is the answer, battery whilst driving in built up areas keeping the towns and cities air clean and the ICE engine when more speed is required on the motorways etc etc.

Too sensible but agree it would be a good intermediate step but may be a little too late

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[Coolcats]

You could say that about anyone. What Musk is doing is pushing things ahead very fast that everyone else said wasn't possible. It is most suitable expressed by Isaac Newton in 1675 when he said "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants."
Would you take away Newtons work just because he built on what had gone before?

The electric car industry had died with the EV1 when the environmental regulations were gutted. None of the ICE manufacturers wanted to do EV's and they fought against them. Back then this was what you got if you bought an EV.
With a 50 Mile range and max speed of 50mph it was the leading EV at the time in the UK. Do you think we would have seen the Taycan, E-tron, iPace or any of the other majors getting into EV's like they are today? Or would they still be pushing back against them like they did back then?
View attachment 528806

Musk pushed and succeeded because of new inventions and developments in motors, battery, electronics and software. His EV's have succeeded against the lobbying, FUD and other tactics of the established industries. Prior to Musk electric cars were slow, often likened to milk floats and golf carts, ugly and the unwanted step child of the motoring industry. He made them fast, exciting and sexy. You obviously don't like him and I can understand that, his personality isn't exactly likeable. But to say he hasn't done something big, new and exciting is just plain wrong.

On rockets. The experts said a private company couldn't do rockets, it was just to big, complex and expensive for private industry. Then he did it. They then said you couldn't land an orbital rocket and still have enough useful payload. He went and did it. Then they said you couldn't re-use a 1st stage, he went and did it.
They then said you that it was impossible to build a fully re-usable rocket (2nd stage etc). He is building it now. Would you bet against him.

As for doing new stuff. No one has ever built a Full Flow Staged Combustion engine successfully before. It has been tried by the Americans and the Russians and they both failed. Musk has actually built dozens of them and flown them.

The reason I like him is he goes back to the fundamentals of physics and says, does physics prevent this from happening? If not then it is an engineering, material science or logistics problems how can we solve this problem. He then gets the best people he can find to solve that problem and gives them the resources to do it, even if those resources are the last cent from his own pocket.

Musk pushed battery technology as emerging technologies would enable EV's Ferdinand Porsche had a Hybrid at the beginning of the 1900's

According to Wiki

Original lead–acid battery powered tzero[edit]​

Original lead–acid battery pack
The original version of the roadster ran[when?] on 28 Johnson Controls Optima Yellow Top lead–acid batteries in series, which produced 150 kW (200 horsepower) and 177 lbs·ft (240 N·m) of torque at 336 volts and accelerated the 1,040 kg (2,290 lb) car from a standstill to 60 mph (97 km/h) in 4.07 seconds. The single gear ratio limited the car's maximum speed to 90 mph (140 km/h) at 12,000 rpm, although it is said that early prototypes fitted with multiple gear ratios could hit 155 miles per hour (249 km/h). Even with the single ratio, lead–acid models are capable of completing a quarter mile (400 m) drag race in 13.24 seconds. The expected range per charge of the tzero with the lead–acid batteries is 80 to 100 mi (130 to 160 km) as a result of consuming only 180 watt hours (DC) per mile (112 Wh/km) on the highway and due to regenerative braking. The car could be charged from 0 to 95% within an hour. The base price of this version was to have been US$80,000.[citation needed]

Lithium-ion battery conversion[edit]​

New lithium-ion battery pack
Tom Gage was contacted by Martin Eberhard about the tZero car which Gage had built, and was currently converting to lithium batteries, similar to those that make up the battery packs of laptop computers.

JB Straubel then told Elon Musk about the newly converted, now lithium-ion powered tzero and arranged a test drive. Musk also encouraged AC Propulsion to commercialize the vehicle.[4] Tom Gage, however, again deferred in favor of working on their electrified Scion xB called the eBox. But he put Elon Musk in contact with Martin Eberhard[7] which led to Elon Musk's Series A funding of Tesla Motors in April, 2004 and their hiring JB Straubel.[6]

Again Musk did not invent Tesla he invested in what was an existing company. I am not saying he isn't good at spotting an opportunity and when you say 'his own money' if all his ventures when broke tomorrow I doubt he would be drawing unemployment benefit....


Founded in July 2003 by Martin Eberhard and Marc Tarpenning as Tesla Motors, the company's name is a tribute to inventor and electrical engineer Nikola Tesla.

In February 2004, via a $6.5 million investment, X.com co-founder Elon Musk became the largest shareholder of the company and its chairman.

 

[Gromett]

Musk pushed battery technology as emerging technologies would enable EV's Ferdinand Porsche had a Hybrid at the beginning of the 1900's

According to Wiki

Original lead–acid battery powered tzero[edit]​

Original lead–acid battery pack
The original version of the roadster ran[when?] on 28 Johnson Controls Optima Yellow Top lead–acid batteries in series, which produced 150 kW (200 horsepower) and 177 lbs·ft (240 N·m) of torque at 336 volts and accelerated the 1,040 kg (2,290 lb) car from a standstill to 60 mph (97 km/h) in 4.07 seconds. The single gear ratio limited the car's maximum speed to 90 mph (140 km/h) at 12,000 rpm, although it is said that early prototypes fitted with multiple gear ratios could hit 155 miles per hour (249 km/h). Even with the single ratio, lead–acid models are capable of completing a quarter mile (400 m) drag race in 13.24 seconds. The expected range per charge of the tzero with the lead–acid batteries is 80 to 100 mi (130 to 160 km) as a result of consuming only 180 watt hours (DC) per mile (112 Wh/km) on the highway and due to regenerative braking. The car could be charged from 0 to 95% within an hour. The base price of this version was to have been US$80,000.[citation needed]

Lithium-ion battery conversion[edit]​

New lithium-ion battery pack
Tom Gage was contacted by Martin Eberhard about the tZero car which Gage had built, and was currently converting to lithium batteries, similar to those that make up the battery packs of laptop computers.

JB Straubel then told Elon Musk about the newly converted, now lithium-ion powered tzero and arranged a test drive. Musk also encouraged AC Propulsion to commercialize the vehicle.[4] Tom Gage, however, again deferred in favor of working on their electrified Scion xB called the eBox. But he put Elon Musk in contact with Martin Eberhard[7] which led to Elon Musk's Series A funding of Tesla Motors in April, 2004 and their hiring JB Straubel.[6]

Again Musk did not invent Tesla he invested in what was an existing company. I am not saying he isn't good at spotting an opportunity and when you say 'his own money' if all his ventures when broke tomorrow I doubt he would be drawing unemployment benefit....


Founded in July 2003 by Martin Eberhard and Marc Tarpenning as Tesla Motors, the company's name is a tribute to inventor and electrical engineer Nikola Tesla.

In February 2004, via a $6.5 million investment, X.com co-founder Elon Musk became the largest shareholder of the company and its chairman.

Watch the video I posted. This is all covered by Eberhard and Tarpenning in their own words. AC propulsion weren't looking at Li batteries until Eberhard and Tarpenning pushed them and even put money in to prevent them going bust. Watch the video. I am very familiar with the history.

 

[Coolcats]

Coolcats Check this out.

The “Impossible” Tech Behind SpaceX’s New Engine

Followers of the Church of Elon will no doubt already be aware of SpaceX’s latest technical triumph: the test firing of the first full-scale Raptor engine. Of course, it was hardly a secret. …

hackaday.com

Tell me Musk hasn't done anything new?

Nope all he is doing is building on what has gone before, as far as I can tell it started with the Chinese, even Barns Wallis Bouncing bomb was built on previous success of Nelson's bouncing Cannon Balls. I have seen predictions of technology that will happen in the future eg the current state of technology and what it will take for further progress (if you call it that) to happen. Without NASA and its funding Space X would not exist, without previous advances in software and computing hardware Tesla would not exist as the control systems required would not be available all technology is intermediate technology. If Climate change was not with us I suspect ICE vehicles would just carry on, what we are witnessing is the political shaping of technology. Musk is reliant on multiple market forces and change along with a step change in available technology (as is every other industry and manufacturer) Musk is great at spotting an opportunity to invest in........Tech Genius maybe, maybe not I'm on the side of maybe not as it takes many others to create a product, he just has big pockets and great marketing.

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[Gromett]

Nope all he is doing is building on what has gone before, as far as I can tell it started with the Chinese, even Barns Wallis Bouncing bomb was built on previous success of Nelson's bouncing Cannon Balls. I have seen predictions of technology that will happen in the future eg the current state of technology and what it will take for further progress (if you call it that) to happen. Without NASA and its funding Space X would not exist, without previous advances in software and computing hardware Tesla would not exist as the control systems required would not be available all technology is intermediate technology. If Climate change was not with us I suspect ICE vehicles would just carry on, what we are witnessing is the political shaping of technology. Musk is reliant on multiple market forces and change along with a step change in available technology (as is every other industry and manufacturer) Musk is great at spotting an opportunity to invest in........Tech Genius maybe, maybe not I'm on the side of maybe not as it takes many others to create a product, he just has big pockets and great marketing.

Where have I ever said he did it alone and that it was all his own work?

The bare facts speak for themselves. Without his guiding and somewhat driven persona it is debatable if any of these would ever have happened. Both Tarpenning and Ebehard have stated that they couldn't get main stream investors interested in their car idea. AC Propulsion were on the verge of going bust when the environmental regulations were diluted as they earned most of their money from the auto industry not from building cars. Without Tarpenning and Eberhard's money they would have gone bust. The TZero was basically a toy car. Musk not only brought money but a driven and obsessive nature to the project. Tesla would have died for lack of funding if not for Musk.

It is not just the money though. Musk is a excellent engineer and it is not me saying that, it is people who worked for him who were exceptional engineers in their own right. Listen to Tom Mueller for example. The guy who designed the Merlin engines. He talks about the way Musk thinks and the principles he applies and how it is different to how the traditional industries think. This guy is an expert in rockets and this interview is well worth a listen. The interview is fascinating in it's own right if you have any interest in space.

Ask youself this question though. Why was there no progress in space travel for 50 years since the last man landed on the moon and in fact things have gone backwards until SpaceX starting bringing the costs down and doing what the "experts" said was not possible. This goes directly to the blank page, physics fundamentalism that Musk uses. going back to first principles is a powerful force if used correctly. Why had the car industry no produced a production EV and kept it on the road? Because they couldn't see a way to make it as profitable as ICE engines which they had so much invested in it. It was Musk's drive that made it possible. If it hadn't been Tarpenning's and Eberhard's Tesla it would have been another company, or if that failed like his attempt to purchase Russian ICBM's he would have started a company from scratch. It may have been SpaceX and Musk Motors. The end result would probably have been the same.

Seriously, watch this video, I am sure you will find it interesting.

 

[Coolcats]

Where have I ever said he did it alone and that it was all his own work?

The bare facts speak for themselves. Without his guiding and somewhat driven persona it is debatable if any of these would ever have happened. Both Tarpenning and Ebehard have stated that they couldn't get main stream investors interested in their car idea. AC Propulsion were on the verge of going bust when the environmental regulations were diluted as they earned most of their money from the auto industry not from building cars. Without Tarpenning and Eberhard's money they would have gone bust. The TZero was basically a toy car. Musk not only brought money but a driven and obsessive nature to the project. Tesla would have died for lack of funding if not for Musk.

It is not just the money though. Musk is a excellent engineer and it is not me saying that, it is people who worked for him who were exceptional engineers in their own right. Listen to Tom Mueller for example. The guy who designed the Merlin engines. He talks about the way Musk thinks and the principles he applies and how it is different to how the traditional industries think. This guy is an expert in rockets and this interview is well worth a listen. The interview is fascinating in it's own right if you have any interest in space.

Ask youself this question though. Why was there no progress in space travel for 50 years since the last man landed on the moon and in fact things have gone backwards until SpaceX starting bringing the costs down and doing what the "experts" said was not possible. This goes directly to the blank page, physics fundamentalism that Musk uses. going back to first principles is a powerful force if used correctly. Why had the car industry no produced a production EV and kept it on the road? Because they couldn't see a way to make it as profitable as ICE engines which they had so much invested in it. It was Musk's drive that made it possible. If it hadn't been Tarpenning's and Eberhard's Tesla it would have been another company, or if that failed like his attempt to purchase Russian ICBM's he would have started a company from scratch. It may have been SpaceX and Musk Motors. The end result would probably have been the same.

Seriously, watch this video, I am sure you will find it interesting.

So there we go them Money is the key to the success of saving a failing company and lets not forget the role of Lotus manufacturing the Tesla Roadster

Regarding Major manufactures they all had a toe in the water regarding EV's but none had much interest and why would they? they were all busy hunting and farming the base over the past 10 years its more like seating thier assets maximising profits for shareholders unlike Tesla they have had to get rid of whole swaths of staff petty anyone over 40 with ICE backgrounds they won't have a job, they are in the process of re-organising businesses for the EV market no company does this unless they have to.

So we agree on one thing in that Musks (and others) investment money saved an ailing company that had the vision to create an EV and as a venture capitalist he poured investment money in......

 

[Gromett]

So there we go them Money is the key to the success of saving a failing company and lets not forget the role of Lotus manufacturing the Tesla Roadster

Just plain wrong on both counts. He brings more than just money. Look at the failures littering the landscape of car manufacturers all of whom had money. And no, Lotus Didn't manufacture the Tesla Roadster, Tesla bought the rolling chassis from them and heavily modified it. It would have been a lot harder without Lotus and they did help Tesla out a lot, getting in with suppliers. If you had watched the first video I posted you would know this.

Regarding Major manufactures they all had a toe in the water regarding EV's but none had much interest and why would they? they were all busy hunting and farming the base over the past 10 years its more like seating thier assets maximising profits for shareholders unlike Tesla they have had to get rid of whole swaths of staff petty anyone over 40 with ICE backgrounds they won't have a job, they are in the process of re-organising businesses for the EV market no company does this unless they have to.

They dipped their toe in when they were forced to with cars like the EV1, but as soon as legislation was relaxed they got out quick. They took the cars back and scrapped them against the wishes of the "owners". It is the first time in history a wake has been held for a car. The traditional manufacturers actively fought against EV's. It was just that they didn't want to do them, they didn't want anyone else to either. Even today they fight against EV's.

So we agree on one thing in that Musks (and others) investment money saved an ailing company that had the vision to create an EV and as a venture capitalist he poured investment money in......

That is a fact that cannot be disputed. But it is not a fact that they would have succeeded without Musk's drive. You only have to look at the success he has had in previous companies. Zip2 and paypal to name two earlier companies and SpaceX to name a later one.
He has a success record that suggests it is not just money he brings to company but a way of thinking. If you had watched the 2 videos I suggested above you would see this and not be having this stupid and pissy argument.

Seriously watch the Tom Mueller video. He talks about Musk choosing the hard way more often than not. Not to make money but to make a better end product that fulfills the requirements in the most efficient way possible.

You make it sound like he is just a money bags with zero skill, talent or intelligence. No better than a salesman. If that is the case how come no other new independent electric car manufacturer has succeeded in mass production? Fisker, Dyson and faraday to name three have all failed despite huge money. If all it required was money don't you think more of them would have succeeded? Fisker notably raised $2Bn which is far more than Musk put into Tesla and Fisker still failed. Dyson gave up before he really got started despite being a billionaire (Musk was only a millionaire when he started SpaceX AND Tesla) Faraday has blown through $billions and is $2Bn in debt. Nikola looks to be going the same way despite a huge valuation and big fund raising.

It takes more than money to drive a company to success.

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[Coolcats]

Just plain wrong on both counts.

Regarding Lotus I am not wrong limited production did take place:

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For Roadsters bound for customers in North America, the chassis is then sent to Menlo Park, California, for final assembly. For Roadsters bound for customers in Europe or elsewhere outside of North America, the chassis is sent to a facility near Hethel, U.K., for final assembly. At these final assembly locations, Tesla employees install the entire powertrain, which consists of the battery pack, power electronics module, gearbox and motor. Tesla also performs rigorous "pre-delivery inspection" on every car before customers take ownership.

• In May 2009, Tesla issued a safety recall for all 345 of its Roadsters that were manufactured before April 22, 2009. Tesla sent technicians to customers' homes to tighten the rear, inner hub flange bolts. Tesla Motors told customers that without this adjustment, the driver could lose control of the car and crash. The problem originated at the Lotus assembly line that builds the Roadster and Lotus is also recalling some of its own vehicles. Tesla reminded customers that millions of cars are recalled every year.
• 
  I also recall a Tesla roadster being driven past me as I was leaving the Lotus factory….

 

[Gromett]

Regarding Lotus I am not wrong limited production did take place:

Broken Link Removed
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For Roadsters bound for customers in North America, the chassis is then sent to Menlo Park, California, for final assembly. For Roadsters bound for customers in Europe or elsewhere outside of North America, the chassis is sent to a facility near Hethel, U.K., for final assembly. At these final assembly locations, Tesla employees install the entire powertrain, which consists of the battery pack, power electronics module, gearbox and motor. Tesla also performs rigorous "pre-delivery inspection" on every car before customers take ownership.

• In May 2009, Tesla issued a safety recall for all 345 of its Roadsters that were manufactured before April 22, 2009. Tesla sent technicians to customers' homes to tighten the rear, inner hub flange bolts. Tesla Motors told customers that without this adjustment, the driver could lose control of the car and crash. The problem originated at the Lotus assembly line that builds the Roadster and Lotus is also recalling some of its own vehicles. Tesla reminded customers that millions of cars are recalled every year.
• 
  I also recall a Tesla roadster being driven past me as I was leaving the Lotus factory….

Do you not read what I write and what you quote back at me?

the chassis is then sent to Menlo Park, California, for final assembly.

I actually said this.

And no, Lotus Didn't manufacture the Tesla Roadster, Tesla bought the rolling chassis from them

Trying reading this.
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If you want to go down that route. Then you could say that Lotus doesn't make their own cars either. They buy in everything from door handles, gear knobs, windows, seats etc etc etc. A bigger percentage of the car was Tesla designed and built than Lotus
Anyway, this is a really stupid and silly argument.

 

[Gromett]

Coolcats

Elon Musk: Converting Lotus' Elise To Build The Tesla Roadster Was A Super Dumb Strategy

Tesla used a highly modified Lotus Elise chassis for its original Roadster. It was a super dumb strategy admitted Tesla CEO Elon Musk. One that almost killed Tesla.

www.forbes.com

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