More evidence hydrogen fuelled vans could power future motorhomes? (1 Viewer)

[mikebeaches]

An article in the Daily Telegraph today about how the French and Germans are jointly working on a major project, which is claimed might wrong-foot the UK because they are further down the road developing a vehicle fuel-cell strategy. The feature is possibly behind a pay-wall, so I've included just a few short relevant extracts below.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/co...wrongfoot-uk-hydrogen-fuelled-road-transport/

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Stellantis, the giant European and American car-making group (the Peugeot/Citroen/Opel/Fiat conglomerate), has revealed a full production hydrogen fuel-cell van which will go on sale in Europe and the UK this year.

“This is the moment,” says Carla Gohin, Stellantis’s senior vice-president of research and innovation. “We are not talking prototypes, these will be real vehicles for real customers and will be answering specific needs of commercial operators.

The new mid-sized fuel cell van, which will at first be badged as a Peugeot Expert, Citroën Dispatch and Opel Vivaro, will only be available as a left-hand drive vehicle this year, but by 2022 it will also come to the UK as a right-hand-drive Vauxhall Vivaro.

Using a heavily hybridised fuel-cell drivetrain, the newcomer will be based on the group’s existing battery vans. The 45kW fuel-cell system sits under the bonnet, a 10.5kWh lithium-ion battery lives across the vehicle under the seats and three tanks holding 4.4 litres of liquid hydrogen at 700 bar are under the load floor.

The new hydrogen van’s range is quoted at 250 miles with a refuelling time of only three minutes. There is no price yet, but Xavier Peugeot, Stellantis’s light commercial senior vice-president, says that it should have a total cost of ownership similar to that of rival conventional vans.

He says that although the company has been at the forefront of light commercial electrification, it has identified “a serious percentage of users with operations which are not suitable for electric vehicles”.

This is because such users operate a mixed-use cycle, straddling urban and out-of-town use and require a greater range, faster recharging and the retention of the vehicle’s cubic capacity load space.

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I know these vans are smaller than most MH base vehicles, but will hydrogen fuel cells be the future for motorhomes, rather than pure electric?

 

[marchie]

I read an earlier article on hydrogen powered cars where the hydrogen fuel capacity was quoted at just over 6kg. The price for hydrogen was around £15 per kg so there probably needs to be a reduction in the fuel price to tempt buyers to switch.

Steve

 

[Badknee]

There’s another thread discussing the very same subject

Hydrogen powered commercial vehicles.

It may be of interest to those who might be worrying about the future for motorhomes post 2030 when Diesel and Petrol vehicles will no longer be built in the UK. In The Telegraph 31st March, there was an article about the car- making giant Stellantis making a production Hydrogen fuel cell...

www.motorhomefun.co.uk

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[mikebeaches]

There’s another thread discussing the very same subject

Hydrogen powered commercial vehicles.

It may be of interest to those who might be worrying about the future for motorhomes post 2030 when Diesel and Petrol vehicles will no longer be built in the UK. In The Telegraph 31st March, there was an article about the car- making giant Stellantis making a production Hydrogen fuel cell...

www.motorhomefun.co.uk

Oops, many thanks - I missed that thread!

And yes, it's exactly the same subject.

 

[mikebeaches]

I read an earlier article on hydrogen powered cars where the hydrogen fuel capacity was quoted at just over 6kg. The price for hydrogen was around £15 per kg so there probably needs to be a reduction in the fuel price to tempt buyers to switch.

Steve

I think it's very early days to assess the costs. The price of fuel will certainly be relatively expensive whilst it is such a rare commodity.

The article mentions:

France currently has 25 hydrogen filling stations, Germany 90 and the UK 12.

 

[SpeedyDux]

I would expect FIAT to offer the next generation Ducato due in 2024 with plug-in Hybrid and full BEV options although the BEV range will be somewhat restricted and more suitable for urban delivery vans than MHs.

I am sceptical about the quality of FIAT manufacture being high enough to provide reliable Hydrogen-powered Ducatos. I shan't be an early adopter!

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[MitchandJenny]

I think it's very early days to assess the costs. The price of fuel will certainly be relatively expensive whilst it is such a rare commodity.

The article mentions:

France currently has 25 hydrogen filling stations, Germany 90 and the UK 12.

Hydrogen is the most common element in the universe I think.
Stripping it off other elements is the difficult bit.
Let’s hope investment in it gathers pace.
Mitch

I think it's very early days to assess the costs. The price of fuel will certainly be relatively expensive whilst it is such rare commodity.

 

[mikebeaches]

I am sceptical about the quality of FIAT manufacture being high enough to provide reliable Hydrogen-powered Ducatos. I shan't be an early adopter!

I know what you are saying about Fiat, but they are now part of the new Stellantis group which are currently building the vans referred to in the article.

It will be interesting to see how those fare. It could provide a clue as to how good they might be at Ducatos and Boxers et al...

 

[Jev88]

Novel Hydrogen production

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[Dark_Comet]

Ok more about hydrogen kits. First no hydrogen is stored on the vehicle at all. The HHO generator can be switched on or off at will. Its a dry cell generator that produces the hydrogen and the gas is sent to the inlet manifold via bubbler and spark arrestor. If on a ferry just drive on and off as normal, then simply switch the HHO generator back on when you hit the road.

 

[Larrynwin]

700 bar pressure storage wow

 

[Dark_Comet]

Where do you get 700 bar pressure?. Your storing zero hydrogen in no tanks. You have clearly misread what I posted about how the hho generator kit works. Zero hydrogen is stored on the vehicle.

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[Larrynwin]

Where do you get 700 bar pressure?. Your storing zero hydrogen in no tanks. You have clearly misread what I posted about how the hho generator kit works. Zero hydrogen is stored on the vehicle.

This is from the op and I quote

“Using a heavily hybridised fuel-cell drivetrain, the newcomer will be based on the group’s existing battery vans. The 45kW fuel-cell system sits under the bonnet, a 10.5kWh lithium-ion battery lives across the vehicle under the seats and three tanks holding 4.4 litres of liquid hydrogen at 700 bar are under the load floor.”

 

[dabhand]

Turd power is the future for motorhomes, imagine, no more cassette emptying, 250 miles on a full tank perhaps, remember, you heard it here first, Hymer poo o mobile maybe?

 

[MitchandJenny]

That’s just a load of crap !!
Mitch.

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[68c]

Ok more about hydrogen kits. First no hydrogen is stored on the vehicle at all. The HHO generator can be switched on or off at will. Its a dry cell generator that produces the hydrogen and the gas is sent to the inlet manifold via bubbler and spark arrestor. If on a ferry just drive on and off as normal, then simply switch the HHO generator back on when you hit the road.

The thing you are referring to is not suitable for a motor vehicle. It works by using electricity to break down water into a hydrogen and oxygen mix which is then injected into the engine. The electricity has to come from somewhere in this case the vehicle battery which is being charged by the alternator, the alternator of course is driven by the engine. There are a series of losses due to inefficiency, the engine does not use all the energy contained in the fuel. The belt drive to the alternator loses power, similarly the alternator does not convert all the mechanical input to electricity. Finally the HHO is in itself not 100% efficient. Simply put, you would waste more fuel driving the HHO than you would gain from it. Solar? Even a bus sized motorhome does not have enough space, even at an optimistic 1Kw per square metre, to create enough electricity for the HHO to make enough hydrogen/oxygen mix to run the motorhome. You will not run out of water as the hydrogen/oxygen mix will convert back to water as soon as you burn it. Of course burning it releases heat energy which is really the electrical energy you put in with the HHO, so best dodge the HHO and use the electricity to drive a motor.

 

[Conrad J]

Long thought going down the route of battery vehicles would run into trouble. Lithium is in limited supply, comes from only a few places in the world (eggs in baskets), there are environmental issues with manufacture and disposal. Hydrogen can be split from water molecules using surplus electricity generation from wind and solar, then stored. Low impact in manufacture. It would also be beneficial to have production units as it could be used as a replacement to polluting hydrocarbon oil/gas. Yes, we'd need a new infrastructure to refuel our vehicles, but there will be lots of diesel/petrol station owners looking for continued trade. Also, no concerns for drivers about having to recharge, just top up when starting to get low, like with present fuels. I think it's also more suitable for heavier vehicles, at present an electric lorry would need to carry a considerable % of its payload in batteries.

 

[Dark_Comet]

What is you thoughts on fitting a HHO generator kit to a vehicle. Hydrogen is generated as and when required and simply added to the combustion mix.

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[68c]

Look at my reply #16 above.

 

[Gromett]

Scam...

 

[Dark_Comet]

As a transport engineer I keep a finger on the pulse of new developements re emissions etc for both hgv and bus. Easiest converts to existing ICE engines has be the addition of a gas to the mix. You now have engines completely powered on either lng or cng depending on where the vehicle is to be operated. Then you have the addition of a HHO generation kit to large diesel engines which is proving very successful. The other options are radical in that the entire construction of the vehicle is different ie battery banks, charging, electric motors. Other type of course is hydrogen fuel which for large hgv is my preferred option in that you got a range of 1000 miles point to point and a vehicle you can fill with hydrogen as fast as filling with regular diesel. Until battery technilogy improves and can be recharged in 10s of minitues

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[Coolcats]

The JCB Hydrogen unit looks like it would fit easily under the bonnet of a MoHo

 

[EuroTrotters]

700 bar !

 

[gpat]

As a transport engineer I keep a finger on the pulse of new developements re emissions etc for both hgv and bus. Easiest converts to existing ICE engines has be the addition of a gas to the mix. You now have engines completely powered on either lng or cng depending on where the vehicle is to be operated. Then you have the addition of a HHO generation kit to large diesel engines which is proving very successful. The other options are radical in that the entire construction of the vehicle is different ie battery banks, charging, electric motors. Other type of course is hydrogen fuel which for large hgv is my preferred option in that you got a range of 1000 miles point to point and a vehicle you can fill with hydrogen as fast as filling with regular diesel. Until battery technilogy improves and can be recharged in 10s of minitues

The generation of hydrogen from water (using the vehicles alternator) and then feeding it into the engine - IMO it just doesn't seem to add up

The addition of hydrogen into the fuel mix would be a benefit but surely that would be enormously off set by the amount of electricity needed to liberate hydrogen from water (a very inefficient way to make Hydrogen)

Maybe someone could explain this in something other than mumbo jumbo speak

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[frogijock]

I have my eye on a nice Itinerant horse and caravan set up when the whole world wide goverment ideas hit the proverbial buffers as it is bound to do in 2030

 

[Dark_Comet]

Why dont you look on google where this has been looked into in detail. There are 100s of youtube videos of HHO kits being bought and fitted in great detail. The kits can be bought for £200 or less and anybody who is handy with tools and basic electricity can fit the kit. The modern alternator is capable of over 130 amps easily and 15 to 25 amps would put zero load on the engine. Any help you need feel free to ask. Im buying in the very near future a 2007/8 Rapido 9048 DF and no cigar what will be my first addition will be to the vehicle.

 

[tonyidle]

Ok more about hydrogen kits. First no hydrogen is stored on the vehicle at all. The HHO generator can be switched on or off at will. Its a dry cell generator that produces the hydrogen and the gas is sent to the inlet manifold via bubbler and spark arrestor. If on a ferry just drive on and off as normal, then simply switch the HHO generator back on when you hit the road.

There will be no inlet manifold fitted to anything after 2030. Apart from everything else known about HHO and perpetual motion.

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[Gromett]

Why dont you look on google where this has been looked into in detail. There are 100s of youtube videos of HHO kits being bought and fitted in great detail. The kits can be bought for £200 or less and anybody who is handy with tools and basic electricity can fit the kit. The modern alternator is capable of over 130 amps easily and 15 to 25 amps would put zero load on the engine. Any help you need feel free to ask. Im buying in the very near future a 2007/8 Rapido 9048 DF and no cigar what will be my first addition will be to the vehicle.

Multiple tests have proven it to be the scam it is, anyone with a basic knowledge of science or engineering knows you can't get something for nothing and tests have proven this.

 

[tonyidle]

Multiple tests have proven it to be the scam it is, anyone with a basic knowledge of science or engineering knows you can't get something for nothing and tests have proven this.

Take the vehicle out of the equation. The system uses power produced by an alternator to produce HHO. The gas is used to power an engine (less than 50% efficient in itself) which powers the alternator to make gas. This circle is called perpetual motion.

 

[dabhand]

Take the vehicle out of the equation. The system uses power produced by an alternator to produce HHO. The gas is used to power an engine (less than 50% efficient in itself) which powers the alternator to make gas. This circle is called perpetual motion.

Being scientifically as thick as proverbial pig shit, but correct me if I’m wrong, and I’m sure I may be, there seems to me to be a basic flaw in the above statement, if you take the vehicle out of the equation how do you power the alternator in the first place to produce the gas to power the engine, how can it be perpetual motion as you need the gas to power the engine to power the alternator (I think) that’s what I mean anyway!

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