More evidence hydrogen fuelled vans could power future motorhomes? (1 Viewer)

[Coolcats]

Do you not read what I write and what you quote back at me?



I actually said this.



Trying reading this.
Broken Link Removed

If you want to go down that route. Then you could say that Lotus doesn't make their own cars either. They buy in everything from door handles, gear knobs, windows, seats etc etc etc. A bigger percentage of the car was Tesla designed and built than Lotus
Anyway, this is a really stupid and silly argument.

Oh dear, yes Lotus did manufacture a number of Tesla roadsters not all of them granted but I will seek out the chassi numbers for you…..

 

[Coolcats]

Do you not read what I write and what you quote back at me?



I actually said this.



Trying reading this.
Broken Link Removed

If you want to go down that route. Then you could say that Lotus doesn't make their own cars either. They buy in everything from door handles, gear knobs, windows, seats etc etc etc. A bigger percentage of the car was Tesla designed and built than Lotus
Anyway, this is a really stupid and silly argument.

I never said this Gromett what I said was that a % of Tesla roadsters were manufactured by Lotus at Hethel, as was pointed out in one of the posts Lotus do a lot of engineering consultancy

Now here is the Vin list and where the cars were manufactured Direct from the Tesla Motors club

 

[Gromett]

I never said this Gromett what I said was that a % of Tesla roadsters were manufactured by Lotus at Hethel, as was pointed out in one of the posts Lotus do a lot of engineering consultancy

Now here is the Vin list and where the cars were manufactured Direct from the Tesla Motors club

View attachment 529485

No idea what you are getting at here.

Lotus supplied a Tesla designed rolling chassis to Tesla, Tesla built the car out and sold it.
For US market this was done in the US, for EU cars this was done in the UK.

Lotus at no point built the entire car for Tesla.

Even IF Lotus designed and built all 2,450 of the Roadsters (They didn't), so what?

The original founders of Tesla left in 2007 and 2008. The Model S was entirely designed in house after both had left, nothing to do with external manufacturers or the original founders. Bet you will find some excuse not to give Musk credit for that car?

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[Coolcats]

I saw the first link below on the BBC regarding the interest that is being shown by Governments in to Hydrogen, I then saw the Ross Brawn F1 interview regarding the potential of Hydrogen in future F1 racing as Batteries would be 6-7 Ton to provide the same performance these cars enjoy now.

What is hydrogen energy and why is it important?​

​

Formula 1: Hydrogen could play a role in the future, says Ross Brawn​

 

[Coolcats]

No idea what you are getting at here.

Lotus supplied a Tesla designed rolling chassis to Tesla, Tesla built the car out and sold it.
For US market this was done in the US, for EU cars this was done in the UK.

Lotus at no point built the entire car for Tesla.

Even IF Lotus designed and built all 2,450 of the Roadsters (They didn't), so what?

The original founders of Tesla left in 2007 and 2008. The Model S was entirely designed in house after both had left, nothing to do with external manufacturers or the original founders. Bet you will find some excuse not to give Musk credit for that car?

Gromett Just to refer you to the production Vin numbers you will see a small number were built at Hethel (EP, VP, and Production) and yes the majority were assembled in Menlo, Lotus consultancy is highly valued across the industry which was acknowledged by the early Tesla Team.

Musk provided the finance for the Model S he has a Designer and Engineering team, so no I do not give Musk the credit for creating the car. I am not saying he is stupid or does not have great ideas but he has the Money to turn an idea into a product with a Team that can both design and engineer that idea into something the market wants.

This is the man who has designed Musks Vision

Franz Von Holzenhausen is behind the designs of : The Model S, Model 3, Model Y, Cyber truck and the next Gen Tesla

 

[SpeedyDux]

…yes Gromett blue hydrogen was in the Guardian yesterday in many ways it is no different to the energy companies green washing stating they provide green energy times are changing and we will have green hydrogen. But please keep being the anti hydrogen cheerleader

in the meantime serious investment is going into hydrogen development.

JCB signs green hydrogen deal worth billions​

JCB aren't fools. I suspect that the switch to hydrogen power would help to offset the end of the red diesel tax concession for construction plant.

Using abundant Australian solar energy to make hydrogen and transporting it in bulk may be more cost-effective than making hydrogen in the UK using intermittent renewable electricity supply that may soon be insufficient to meet demand.

JCB signs green hydrogen deal worth billions

JCB will take 10% of the green hydrogen made by Australian mining company Fortescue Future Industries.

www.bbc.co.uk

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[Gromett]

JCB signs green hydrogen deal worth billions​

JCB aren't fools. I suspect that the switch to hydrogen power would help to offset the end of the red diesel tax concession for construction plant.

Using abundant Australian solar energy to make hydrogen and transporting it in bulk may be more cost-effective than making hydrogen in the UK using intermittent renewable electricity supply that may soon be insufficient to meet demand.

JCB signs green hydrogen deal worth billions

JCB will take 10% of the green hydrogen made by Australian mining company Fortescue Future Industries.

www.bbc.co.uk

I suspect having invested heavily in their Diesel Engine production plant they don't want to see all the expertise and investment go down the pan. Their hydrogen engines are running on the IC cycle and are not fuel cell driven.

I am just wondering how farmers are going to handle having a hydrogen storage/pump on their land? I suspect most will go for a solar array and battery bank as it will be cheaper and safer.

 

[olley]

I would imagine you would get cylinders in the same as you do oxy and acetylene gases.
Can't see battery tech at the moment powering a tractor all day plowing a field.

 

[Dark_Comet]

Are not batterys powering forklifts all day.

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[SpeedyDux]

I suspect having invested heavily in their Diesel Engine production plant they don't want to see all the expertise and investment go down the pan. Their hydrogen engines are running on the IC cycle and are not fuel cell driven.

I am just wondering how farmers are going to handle having a hydrogen storage/pump on their land? I suspect most will go for a solar array and battery bank as it will be cheaper and safer.

Producing ICE engines and vehicles is good for keeping skilled manufacturing jobs. A think tank recently estimated that the EU motor industry switch to manufacturing only BEVs by 2030 would result in a net loss of 70,000 jobs in the automotive industry and its supply chains. Because BEVs need fewer components.

I suspect that number doesn't include the many jobs that will be destroyed in the dealer networks as ICE car ownership declines. Car dealerships need income from their workshops because they can't survive on low margin car sales alone. BEVs are going to change the business model irreversibly. Difficult to predict what after sales service for BEVs will emerge but it is likely to need fewer skilled people. My 2d worth.

The Green industrial revolution is not going to create enough new highly paid jobs to replace those that will be lost from traditional manufacturing.

 

[SpeedyDux]

Are not batterys powering forklifts all day.

Lots run on LPG gas bottles.

 

[Gromett]

Producing ICE engines and vehicles is good for keeping skilled manufacturing jobs. A think tank recently estimated that the EU motor industry switch to manufacturing only BEVs by 2030 would result in a net loss of 70,000 jobs in the automotive industry and its supply chains. Because BEVs need fewer components.

I suspect that number doesn't include the many jobs that will be destroyed in the dealer networks as ICE car ownership declines. Car dealerships need income from their workshops because they can't survive on low margin car sales alone. BEVs are going to change the business model irreversibly. Difficult to predict what after sales service for BEVs will emerge but it is likely to need fewer skilled people. My 2d worth.

The Green industrial revolution is not going to create enough new highly paid jobs to replace those that will be lost from traditional manufacturing.

Trying to preserve old jobs is not the answer. 300 years ago most of the population did back breaking jobs in agriculture. 150 years a lot of the population worked down mines. In the 50/60s there were lots of secretaries, typists and short hand.
Each time a new technology comes out that is better, a lot of people lose their jobs and get re-allocated back into the work force in other areas. It could be argued that comparing unskilled agricultural workers and miners to skilled car builders is not a good comparison.
So lets just stick with typists. I would suggest a typist is a more skilled job than a person on a car production line. I personally don't think that a production line operative should be classed as a skilled job for the most part.
Below is a picture of what typing pools used to look like. Literally 10's of thousands of people worked full time doing this. Computers killed this industry. However, many more jobs were created from the birth of computers.

I suspect though cannot prove that the same thing will happen with EVs. Once the technology is established and come down in price, many new companies will be created to do fantastic and unusual things with it. Rather than having a handful of huge manufacturers we will have loads of small companies building tiny, small and medium sized vehicles for unusual uses that were just not practical using ICE engines.

As for the green revolution not creating enough highly paid jobs. I think you may be wrong here. Green energy is likely to made up of many 1,000s of smaller generators, whereas traditional fossil and nuclear tend to go big. This gives an efficiency benefit with respect to labour to these big plants.
How many engineers work in a 2GW gas fired power plant on the turbine? Then think how many wind turbines at 15MW are needed to make up this number? Then think about all the ancillary staff needed, from boat pilots, to crane operators to helicopter pilots etc etc etc.
I think the labour force for wind for instance will far exceed the labour force for gas generators currently.

Then add in all the solar installers for domestic and commercial premises. Electricians to install and maintain battery packs, hydrogen engineers (if that takes off) and many, many more.

Whilst I agree there will be some loss of jobs as ICE engines, gearbox and transmission are more complex than electric motors and related transmission. I don't think overall there will be that many job losses. Remember you lose complexity in the engine, but have a lot of extra work in the batteries. Battery factories are likely to employ an awful lot of people. These are new jobs and I suspect globally they will exceed the loss in the gearbox and engine production plants.

No one knows how it will shake out. But going back to the Swing Riots, through the Luddites to anti tech people over the last 40 years, the benefits have far outweighed the costs and I strongly believe the same will happen here.
Yes, some will lose their jobs and not be able to transfer but that doesn't mean we should stop progress to protect those few.

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[Gromett]

PS: I have worked at 3 factories as a production line operative, in the first job I progressed to being Quality control manager testing electrical transformers but only after I had worked on each stage of the production line.
Whilst a production line operator has to have a degree of common sense, an ability to learn a process and a certain eye for detail it is not what I would class as a skilled job such as an electrician, plumber or even brick layer.

So whilst I do have some sympathy for those losing their jobs on production lines, I don't think they should be protected to avoid job losses at the cost of progress.

 

[Otter Spotter]

Just spotted this report about a new floating wind farm proposed 136km north of Shetland, the power is going to used to create hydrogen which will be pipe ashore.

Large offshore wind farm proposed north of Shetland

The 10GW project would produce green hydrogen, which would then be transported to a new refinery in Shetland

www.shetnews.co.uk

 

[RandallC]

Just say this "who has watched the loss of the Hindenburg" AND has any knowledge of the DSEAR regulations?

Just saying, unless you have worked in an industry using H2 then it looks easy, pleases accept it's not.

It's a tad more flammable than Natural gas or Butane/Propane.

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[Otter Spotter]

Just say this "who has watched the loss of the Hindenburg" AND has any knowledge of the DSEAR regulations?

Just saying, unless you have worked in an industry using H2 then it looks easy, pleases accept it's not.

It's a tad more flammable than Natural gas or Butane/Propane.

Does that means you will use less for more power ?

 

[Coolcats]

I suspect having invested heavily in their Diesel Engine production plant they don't want to see all the expertise and investment go down the pan. Their hydrogen engines are running on the IC cycle and are not fuel cell driven.

I am just wondering how farmers are going to handle having a hydrogen storage/pump on their land? I suspect most will go for a solar array and battery bank as it will be cheaper and safer.

Farmers are a curious bunch and already use a veriaty of fuels…at least that is my experience of our local farmers. Imagine a combine harvester run on batteries, it would have to pop back to the farm and get recharged same as JCB vehicles both of which can operate in remote areas for long periods of time so an alternative source of fuel to batteries is desirable. It’s not that JCB has more investment in ICE technology it is the long working hours required by the industries the vehicles work in and today Battery tech just won’t cut it.

 

[Coolcats]

Just say this "who has watched the loss of the Hindenburg" AND has any knowledge of the DSEAR regulations?

Just saying, unless you have worked in an industry using H2 then it looks easy, pleases accept it's not.

It's a tad more flammable than Natural gas or Butane/Propane.

Sounds to me like a new career for up and coming bright youngsters to get their teeth into. We need new industries

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[RandallC]

Does that means you will use less for more power ?

Means is B dangerous!

 

[RandallC]

Sounds to me like a new career for up and coming bright youngsters to get their teeth into. We need new industries

Happy to see new management of this hopefully suitable containment and leak prevention will help.

 

[Coolcats]

Below is a picture of what typing pools used to look like. Literally 10's of thousands of people worked full time doing this. Computers killed this industry. However, many more jobs were created from the birth of computers.

Actually Gromett not sure it’s entirely correct the typing is still carried out, I used to be able to dictate notes etc from a meeting on a central dictation service, by the time I got back to my desk it was in my inbox all I had to do was ocassionaly make minor adjustment then file it and get on with other work. When that service was disbanded I had to type up my own notes when I got back to the office. The typing pools were disbanded to save money and be more profitable for decades this has gone one yet with all these marvellous efficiencies the company is no more profitable than before…..it’s all an illusion.

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[Coolcats]

Happy to see new management of this hopefully suitable containment and leak prevention will help.

Yup and that’s why the people who will do this are at Universities right this moment who will bring these improvements along.

 

[gpat]

Just say this "who has watched the loss of the Hindenburg" AND has any knowledge of the DSEAR regulations?

Just saying, unless you have worked in an industry using H2 then it looks easy, pleases accept it's not.

It's a tad more flammable than Natural gas or Butane/Propane.

Its much more than a 'tad' as well. It is significantly more explosive in more and less concentrations.

However saying that the modern cells/tanks are considerably safer than gas filled balloons.

 

[Gromett]

I would imagine you would get cylinders in the same as you do oxy and acetylene gases.
Can't see battery tech at the moment powering a tractor all day plowing a field.

Nope, it is a cryogenic gas. and standard cylinders are not suitable for hydrogen.

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[Gromett]

It's a tad more flammable than Natural gas or Butane/Propane.

and when it does combust it has a much higher speed of combustion causing a massive shock wave by comparison.

I certainly wouldn't want to live next door to a house that was using hydrogen for heating/cooking. Would scare the crap out of me.

 

[Gromett]

Farmers are a curious bunch and already use a veriaty of fuels…at least that is my experience of our local farmers. Imagine a combine harvester run on batteries, it would have to pop back to the farm and get recharged same as JCB vehicles both of which can operate in remote areas for long periods of time so an alternative source of fuel to batteries is desirable. It’s not that JCB has more investment in ICE technology it is the long working hours required by the industries the vehicles work in and today Battery tech just won’t cut it.

For small and medium sized farms then batteries are the answer. For larger farms and contractors some synthetic green fuel should be used. Ammonia, ethanol or diesel made for WVO would be ideal.

 

[olley]

Nope, it is a cryogenic gas. and standard cylinders are not suitable for hydrogen.

You had better tell BOC then.

https://www.boconline.co.uk/shop/en/uk/hydrogen-genie-20l-300-bar-54-g20?gclid=CjwKCAjwiY6MBhBqEiwARFSCPr8SOZmJC8qT4iL9EeuVQMkrZHdI2C3yhrgZy8wGH9cVugRhIOojlxoC8oAQAvD_BwE

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[knickam]

Nope, it is a cryogenic gas. and standard cylinders are not suitable for hydrogen.

Funny used them for years at the gas plant, Pressure over 200bar

https://www.boconline.co.uk/shop/en/uk/gas/fuel-gas/high-purity-hydrogen-manifolded-cylinder-pallet

 

[olley]

Humble pie time Gromett

 

[Gromett]

You had better tell BOC then.

https://www.boconline.co.uk/shop/en/uk/hydrogen-genie-20l-300-bar-54-g20?gclid=CjwKCAjwiY6MBhBqEiwARFSCPr8SOZmJC8qT4iL9EeuVQMkrZHdI2C3yhrgZy8wGH9cVugRhIOojlxoC8oAQAvD_BwE

Funny used them for years at the gas plant, Pressure over 200bar

https://www.boconline.co.uk/shop/en/uk/gas/fuel-gas/high-purity-hydrogen-manifolded-cylinder-pallet

I stand corrected. I wasn't aware of this. Interesting. I will have to look into this to see the costs vs bio fuels etc for farm use. The cost looks quite high for use as tractor fuel?

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