Cars suitable for towing (1 Viewer)

[JaG]

We have a 2009 Autotrail Cherokee 740SE with a 3 litre Auto engine/box. Weight 4000kg.
We want to tow a car now and then with an A frame, which we have all the required knowledge about. We have been quoted £1,020 for the bar with electronic braking.
What we want is ideas for a new car that we can tow and use as a family car. Also with a good spec.
We did pick one, a Suzuki Ignis SX5 but had to cancel when Suzuki said it cannot be towed on four wheels. They said it had to be either the two front or the two back.
We have shortlisted three, those being Seat Ibiza 1.6 xcellence diesel (1256kg).......Citreon C3 (1090kg).......Honda Jazz (1100kg).
Are we looking at the right cars, or are there better?
It has to be big enough to carry a big mobility scooter...and Benji of course.

 

[bigtwin]

I was referring to cars earlier but yes what you can tow is Train weight less the Gross vehicle weight which is often quite low on many vans.

That is where we disagree and, in fact, where the Department for Transport disagrees with you.

See para 7.3 in the following link:

Towing with a car

Towing trailers, caravans and horseboxes with a car, including the weight and size limits, and what licence you need to have

www.gov.uk

Going back to your belief that the towing limit is governed by the capability of the rear end structure of the MH and not by the running gear (I.e. the brakes, etc), compare the following scenarios:

• Small(ish) MH MGW 3500, MTW 5500
• Large MH MGW 5000, MTW 5500

Your position suggests that the rear ended structure of the large MH is substantially weaker than that of the small MH; that is, in the above example it is capable of towing only 500Kg whereas the smaller MH is capable of towing 2000Kg. That, In my view, is illogical and inconceivable.

The common limitation on both vehicles is, most likely, the running gear and not the strength of the structure.

This has been discussed in previous threads including this one (where we both provided a contribution ?):

Burstener 747-2 active towing capabilitiy

I am having trouble understanding the towing capability of the burstener 747 year 2004 the plate show these figures Line 1 5000kg Line 2 5500kg 1- 2000kg 2- 1500kg 3- 1500kg Does this make sense to anyone, I have a smart car on smart trailer weighing approx 1150kgm

www.motorhomefun.co.uk

Ian

 

[Cheshirecat57]

Just don't get a cowboy one fitted, where they rip out the manufacturer crash bar and fit a lump of steel

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[Mikeco]

That is where we disagree and, in fact, where the Department for Transport disagrees with you.

See para 7.3 in the following link:

Towing with a car

Towing trailers, caravans and horseboxes with a car, including the weight and size limits, and what licence you need to have

www.gov.uk

Going back to your belief that the towing limit is governed by the capability of the rear end structure of the MH and not by the running gear (I.e. the brakes, etc), compare the following scenarios:

• Small(ish) MH MGW 3500, MTW 5500
• Large MH MGW 5000, MTW 5500

Your position suggests that the rear ended structure of the large MH is substantially weaker than that of the small MH; that is, in the above example it is capable of towing only 500Kg whereas the smaller MH is capable of towing 2000Kg. That, In my view, is illogical and inconceivable.

The common limitation on both vehicles is, most likely, the running gear and not the strength of the structure.

Ian

Why, my Peugeot Boxer van is 3.5 tons and can tow 2.5 tons, some smaller coachbuilt vans use the original manufacturers chassis instead of an Alko one. I had a Chausson on a Renault chassis a few years ago and that could tow quite a bit.
Have a look at an Alko chassis especially a large motorhome with a lightweight extension and you will soon see why.

 

[pappajohn]

When being towed a car effectively becomes a trailer in the eyes of DVLA.
As with ANY trailer the relative weight used is the GROSS weight for towing.
even if towed empty it has the potential to be loaded to its gross weight.
The 'trailers' Unladen weight is immaterial in respect of calculating train weight.

 

[bigtwin]

Why, my Peugeot Boxer van is 3.5 tons and can tow 2.5 tons, some smaller coachbuilt vans use the original manufacturers chassis instead of an Alko one. I had a Chausson on a Renault chassis a few years ago and that could tow quite a bit.
Have a look at an Alko chassis especially a large motorhome with a lightweight extension and you will soon see why.

Not sure what point you’re making in your first para. However it’s clear that your view differs from mine (and that given in the .gov link) so I’ll leave it there.

ian

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[JaG]

Just don't get a cowboy one fitted, where they rip out the manufacturer crash bar and fit a lump of steel

No, it is going to a specialist in Chesterfield. They have fitted 100's of them...Chesterfield A Frames.

 

[bigtwin]

When being towed a car effectively becomes a trailer in the eyes of DVLA.
As with ANY trailer the relative weight used is the GROSS weight for towing.
even if towed empty it has the potential to be loaded to its gross weight.
The 'trailers' Unladen weight is immaterial in respect of calculating train weight.

On that basis, you could be prosecuted for exceeding the GTW even if your actual train weight is below the GTW. Lawyers would have a field day with that one!

Ian

 

[gus-lopez]

That is where we disagree and, in fact, where the Department for Transport disagrees with you.

See para 7.3 in the following link:

Yes but in the link shown you still cannot exceed the maximum trailer weight which would be 2 tonnes.
I used to have an mpv with an ULW of 2,1T & GVW of 2,7T & a GTW of 4.7T. i.e you can tow a trailer of 2 tonnes.
If running the mpv empty at 2,1T you cannot tow a trailer of 2,6 T as the maximum trailer towing capacity still remains at 2T. The trailer itself would be overloaded.

Just don't get a cowboy one fitted, where they rip out the manufacturer crash bar and fit a lump of steel

Doesn't matter how it is done once modified,unless it has a new CoC, it is illegal & also breaches the anti-tuning directive by being 'modified'

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[pappajohn]

compare the following scenarios:

• Small(ish) MH MGW 3500, MTW 5500
• Large MH MGW 5000, MTW 5500

Your position suggests that the rear ended structure of the large MH is substantially weaker than that of the small MH; that is, in the above example it is capable of towing only 500Kg whereas the smaller MH is capable of towing 2000Kg. That, In my view, is illogical and inconceivable.

Agreed.
The gross combined weight is set at the factory and can't be altered.
If it starts life at 3500kg and 5500kg train and gets uprated to 5000kg the train weight must remain at 5500kg.
The same applies if downrated to 3000kg, the train remains at 5500kg so a 2500kg trailer can be towed.

 

[pappajohn]

On that basis, you could be prosecuted for exceeding the GTW even if your actual train weight is below the GTW. Lawyers would have a field day with that one!

Ian

Why?
If you have a Gross of 3500kg and a train gross of 5500kg towing a trailer gross of 2000kg how is that breaking any law.
3500kg gross plus 2000kg gross is 5500kg....your max permitted train weight

 

[Cheshirecat57]

Yes but in the link shown you still cannot exceed the maximum trailer weight which would be 2 tonnes.
I used to have an mpv with an ULW of 2,1T & GVW of 2,7T & a GTW of 4.7T. i.e you can tow a trailer of 2 tonnes.
If running the mpv empty at 2,1T you cannot tow a trailer of 2,6 T as the maximum trailer towing capacity still remains at 2T. The trailer itself would be overloaded.

Doesn't matter how it is done once modified,unless it has a new CoC, it is illegal & also breaches the anti-tuning directive by being 'modified'

Will have to agree to disagree
CoC is worthless bit of paper on a used vehicle

Modification, notified to insurer, is fine on a used vehicle

But Gus, Im happy to learn ??

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[bigtwin]

Agreed.
The gross combined weight is set at the factory and can't be altered.
If it starts life at 3500kg and 5500kg train and gets uprated to 5000kg the train weight must remain at 5500kg.
The same applies if downrated to 3000kg, the train remains at 5500kg so a 2500kg trailer can be towed.

Agree with the above.

ian

 

[bigtwin]

Why?
If you have a Gross of 3500kg and a train gross of 5500kg towing a trailer gross of 2000kg how is that breaking any law.
3500kg gross plus 2000kg gross is 5500kg....your max permitted train weight

I interpreted your earlier post as suggesting that even if your trailer had a gross weight of, for example, 2500Kg you would be illegal even if you loaded it to only 1500Kg.
i.e. Your position would be 2500 + 3500 which exceeds 5500 and mine would be 1500 + 3500 which is less than 5500.

Did I misinterpret your statement that it is gross weights that must be used not actuals?

Ian

 

[Mikeco]

I interpreted your earlier post as suggesting that even if your trailer had a gross weight of, for example, 2500Kg you would be illegal even if you loaded it to only 1500Kg.
i.e. Your position would be 2500 + 3500 which exceeds 5500 and mine would be 1500 + 3500 which is less than 5500.

Did I misinterpret your statement that it is gross weights that must be used not actuals?

Ian

It’s actual weights that are used, this is on a gov. website somewhere and is quite clear.

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[bigtwin]

Yes but in the link shown you still cannot exceed the maximum trailer weight which would be 2 tonnes.
I used to have an mpv with an ULW of 2,1T & GVW of 2,7T & a GTW of 4.7T. i.e you can tow a trailer of 2 tonnes.
If running the mpv empty at 2,1T you cannot tow a trailer of 2,6 T as the maximum trailer towing capacity still remains at 2T. The trailer itself would be overloaded.

It‘s not possible to comment on your statement as you have only defined the plated weights for the towing vehicle; you haven’t stated the plated weights of the trailer.

The trailer may have a greater load capacity than would be permitted by the towing vehicle’s maximum train weight.

Ian

 

[bigtwin]

It’s actual weights that are used, this is on a gov. website somewhere and is quite clear.

I agree, that is my understanding and that is what is indicated in the link that I provided earlier.

Ian

 

[Cheshirecat57]

Lots of miss information in this thread
If you have a Van with a 3500kg van with a 6000 kg train weight and you put an EMPTY 3500 kg trailer PLATED at 3500 kg ( that weighs,say, 600kg) you are illegal

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[bigtwin]

Lots of miss information in this thread
If you have a Van with a 3500kg van with a 6000 kg train weight and you put an EMPTY 3500 kg trailer PLATED at 3500 kg ( that weighs,say, 600kg) you are illegal

If you are going to make a statement like that, please provide evidence to support that claim.

Ian

 

[pappajohn]

I interpreted your earlier post as suggesting that even if your trailer had a gross weight of, for example, 2500Kg you would be illegal even if you loaded it to only 1500Kg.

Yes, because VOSA only work on gross weights, not actual weights.
They will look at the van and trailer plates to calculate your gross train weight and as long as neither is exceeded you are legal.

 

[Mikeco]

Lots of miss information in this thread
If you have a Van with a 3500kg van with a 6000 kg train weight and you put an EMPTY 3500 kg trailer PLATED at 3500 kg ( that weighs,say, 600kg) you are illegal

No, it’s quite clear on the gov. website which states that the sum of the vehicle plate and the trailer plate can exceed the trainweight. It is the weight that is being carried on the trailer, the actual weight that counts.

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[Speve]

deleted

 

[pappajohn]

Lots of miss information in this thread
If you have a Van with a 3500kg van with a 6000 kg train weight and you put an EMPTY 3500 kg trailer PLATED at 3500 kg ( that weighs,say, 600kg) you are illegal

Thank you, at least somebody understands.

 

[pappajohn]

No, it’s quite clear on the gov. website which states that the sum of the vehicle plate and the trailer plate can exceed the trainweight. It is the weight that is being carried on the trailer, the actual weight that counts.

Post a link!

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[Mikeco]

Thank you, at least somebody understands.

This is quite clear

 

[bigtwin]

Yes, because VOSA only work on gross weights, not actual weights.
They will look at the van and trailer plates to calculate your gross train weight and as long as neither is exceeded you are legal.

I agree that provided you do not exceed any plated weight you are ok. However, the train weight is not influenced/determined by the trailer weights; it is specific to the towing vehicle.

Ian

 

[pappajohn]

So it's OK for a (example) Nissan Micra to tow a 3500kg Ifor Williams trailer (640kg kerb weight) providing the Micras train isn't broken.
Even .Gov got that wrong.

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[bigtwin]

Post a link!

See post #31

Ian

 

[pappajohn]

See post #31

Ian

Apologies, I posted before seeing that.

 

[Mikeco]

This may help in your plight of fathoming out the weights.
Here is our van and Trailer weights on Al-ko maxi Chassis.
this is how I load to keep within Gross Train Weight As you can see my trailer gross should only be 1500kg however by loading both with a little less weight we can stay within the max loading.
Bearing in mind we have a payload after all accessories added of 900kg.
Although we loose a little on the payload it ensures we are never over loaded And have a little spare to play with
Example of our van GVW = 4500kg. GTW = 6000kg
. Fully Loaded Van For long trip = 4000kg
gross trailer weight = 1750kg Loaded Trailer = 1720kg
Total. = 6250kg. Total. =. 5720kg
It works for us and there is no max towing weight for trailer on Vc5.
looking at towing weights for Fiat Ducati vans most seem to be 2500kg and one at 3000kg Broken Link Removed

You are quoting normal vans with original chassis, now look at vans with an Alko chassis.
I believe you are pulling 1.730 tonnes on a vehicle designed to pull 1.50 tonnes.
Off to watch the golf now..

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[Speve]

You are quoting normal vans with original chassis, now look at vans with an Alko chassis.
I believe you are pulling 1.730 tonnes on a vehicle designed to pull 1.50 tonnes.
Off to watch the golf now..

Not according to dealers I could have down rated to 4000kg and still Gross train of 6000kg I instead opted to keep the 4500 and when towing keep weights of trailer and van down to keep within the Train.
all on same chassis no alterations
sorry my original post was a bit of a mess it looked ok until I posted and then it all went higgled de piggely.