Autotrail fittings

[Jake Royd]

My SIL has an Autotrail PVC.(sorry can't remember which one)
She asked me to fix one of the drawer latches which had failed.

This was the type where the handle is flush when the lock is locked and 'out' when it's released.
The problem was the plastic striker which had broken off.
I made and fitted a metal one, problem solved.

This made me think of the quality of the fittings.
I don't think Autotrail are any worse than any other.
We had exactly the same problem on our 2008 Chausson and fixed it in much the same way, I had to glue in a wooden block to stiffen the MDF rail which way simply too weak and was allowing the drawer to twist the rail out of the way.

Cutlery drawer coming open on the move.

It surprised me how lightly engineered the fittings are.
they are not engineered to survive full time use by a long way.

Just wondered what failures others have had on door and drawer/cupboard fittings especially ?

 

[Blue Knight]

Just wondered what failures others have had on door and drawer/cupboard fittings especially ?

All of our Autotrail doors and cupboards had an issue of some sort: Catch failure, door misalignment, problems with runners, jammed locks and broken catches.

Autotrail really needs to address the poor construction quality of its vans and sort it out before it goes bust.

 

[wiljoy]

Not unique to Autotrail. I have a Carthago and it is also fitted out with rubbish cupboard fittings. As time goes on we now expect trash as nobody manufacturers quality. I'm convinced they don't know anything else.

 

[CazPaul]

No problems at all on our little 2005 Concorde, real sturdy and quality fittings, drawers, cupboards.

 

[Neckender]

I had the same with our last van Auto Sleeper Broadway every drawer latch had to be refitted, realigned, or remade, this was just minor compared with all the other major faults it had.
It was the worst van that I’d owned out of 6.

John.

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[138go]

Laika has metal handles and pretty solid doors. Not had to adjust anything in 3 years.

 

[Blue Knight]

As time goes on we now expect trash as nobody manufacturers quality.

That's a very good point but it's just a shame IMO that the British converters are leading the charge on who reaches the bottom first.

 

[Cheshirecat57]

My AT Imala had cutlery draw front come clean off in my hand, first time on handover when new, second time after repair 2 weeks later
All three nearside overheads burst open when driving after 1 week
1 of the cupboards was empty !!

Under bed storage cupboard would not open when any weight on bed
Locker door (outside) never closed properly and leaked

Soldvan back to dealer at 13 WEEKS OLD

 

[Jake Royd]

Some interesting replies , thank you.
As you would expect, mixed responses and not confined to AT.

The actual operating , handle part of this particular fitting is fine, it's plenty strong enough and looks like it would withstand a reasonable number of operating cycles.
It's the striker that is frankly pathetic, like something out of a Christmas cracker.

AT must test their vehicles with a typical weight in the cutlery drawer surely?
If not they must be getting some feedback on this issue.
the drawer , like most, is transverse, so when cornering or on a rough road there will be significant steady and impact loads upon it.


(As an aside to my own post, have you ever though how many cycles the hab door mechanism goes through?. It's a lot)

 

[PP Bear]

I love how you think AT test their vehicles, especially the draws.

They don't conduct stage inspections during construction, final inspections or pre-delivery inspections.

If they did I'm sure that they'd never release vehicles to the public, due to the amount of work they'd have to complete.

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[Jake Royd]

I love how you think AT test their vehicles, especially the draws.

They don't conduct stage inspections during construction, final inspections or pre-delivery inspections.

If they did I'm sure that they'd never release vehicles to the public, due to the amount of work they'd have to complete.

I'm a retired Land Rover transmissions design and development manager.
If it was an LR (or frankly any other motor manufacturer) there would be thousands of miles of testing, with rig tests as well if something failed.

This does not avoid failures completely (witness Samsung's problems with their folding phone) but it means most avoidable failures are removed.

 

[Tincataylor]

Quality Assurance is an engineering discipline that is well established and if implemented fully can eliminate 95%+ of failures by understanding the failure mechanism and designing in the accrued knowledge from scratch. However, this does incur cost which most motor homers would not be able to stomach.

 

[nicholsong]

Our 16 year-old N&B Arto just has overhead locker catches which are spring-loaded and one pulls handle to open and pushes to close. In 10 years never had one come open. Our drawers have a twist knob which drives a securing bar down to hold all drawers locked. Just have to remember to activate it on pre-departure checks.

We have had no problems with any cupboards or drawers. Maybe it is N&B build quality, or specifically their 2003 build quality.

I wonder whether some of the problems listed above are due to builders keeping below 3500kg (Although ours was plated at 3500kg but 3850kg on V5), and/or building to a price - most quality Continental MH's new prices are higher than UK-built - you pays peanuts and get monkeys. The German etc. buyers seem not to be so price sensitive.

When I read these stories above it confirms my idea of buying a good quality second-hand as opposed to new. And before anyone jumps in with 'We all cannot afford N&B (or similar) I wil just add that we bought ours 10 years ago at 6 years old for £27.5K. (2005 model just advertised for nearly £30K). I just wonder what others have paid - to 'learn DIY' on catches/drawers.

Geoff

 

[robnchris]

My AT Imala had cutlery draw front come clean off in my hand, first time on handover when new, second time after repair 2 weeks later
All three nearside overheads burst open when driving after 1 week
1 of the cupboards was empty !!

Under bed storage cupboard would not open when any weight on bed
Locker door (outside) never closed properly and leaked

Soldvan back to dealer at 13 WEEKS OLD

Our brand new Autotrail Apache managed 15mins from the dealership when the wardrobe door fell off, since then we have had a continuous list of jobs to work through but decided to do them ourselves as the replacement parts are the same as those that failed so no point in changing broken bits for parts that will just fail again.
Would we buy another Autotrail?

Most certainly not.

 

[Jonno1103]

So... British converters are racing to themselves to the bottom are they and they not inspected during the build stage...?

Mmm... maybe in the pages of Enid Blyton's " Five Build A Motorhome."

Who's that then Bailey & Swift? the rest are controlled by either the French or Germans and build to their boardroom decided specifications. Build techniques across all of the European factories owned and controlled by Trigano have been streamlined and rationalised and are very, very similar... I know, I've been in all of them in a previous life. (I worked for a well known consumer group).
Want a Mobilivetta K Yacht but turn your nose up at a Rollerteam Pegaso? They're built side by side on the same production line. That's just one example.

It's about perspective. They all build an equal amount of duds, foreign language owner and consumer forums are full of complaints, again with some even suggesting mainland European constructors are racing themselves to the bottom too.

We all know what it's about...weight, more specifically payload. It'll only get worse throughout the industry, the oldest of the post '97 licence holders are pushing 40 now, it won't be too long before a few will contemplate a preloved van or caravan, the age of ownership is getting younger every year... most can't drive anything over 3.5k far less tow a caravan. How many of these drivers will be happy to fork out another £2k in order to pull a 5 year old Bailey Pegasus or sit behind the wheel of an up-plated preloved Dethleffs? Internal fixtures will inevitably become flimsier as they're not about to start using carbon fibre or buckypaper.

Shoddy build quality on new vans - 3 years old or under - is unacceptable but you'll find it in any mass produced product being constructed to a deadline from a motorhome to a 3 seater sofa.
In most cases for coachbuilders and converters you're given a 5 year warranty on fixtures and fittings... 5 years, that's how long converters expect them to last without major issue, no longer.

Question is how many of us hit the forums if a household kitchen door or drawer front becomes loose after X amount of use... with only a 12 month warranty? How many of us hit the forums when our flat packed bookcase from IKEA is damaged?
Law of averages suggest we change our domestic kitchens and bathrooms every 7-10 years, for beds or mattresses it's 5 years... why do many expect a motorhome's interior to last longer and not suffer any wear and tear along the way?

Bench seats which convert to beds. By design they're not a fixture, they move in and out and are subjected to the same forces as the solid bit of kit you have at home... Ours easily has a combined weight of 30 stone on it when used... you expect it to perform perfectly every time?

The objection of occasional use only holds water for so long. Occasional use actually shortens the life of a motorhome. Not to get too techy but there's a lot of refined fossil fuels in plastics, fabrics and ply's which degrade over time especially when under the constant bombardment of UV when parked on your driveway. Do many owners not understand how much heat and cold can be generated in the living space of a closed up motorhome? Fittings warp and become brittle. You think it's sitting there doing nothing, wrong, it's getting old and stiff.

You try sleeping all winter and see what condition you're in come Spring.

The irony is, the more they're used the longer they last.

I wonder...When does work stop being shoddy and become general wear and tear or for some will the answer always be never?

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[Conal]

We must be lucky, or Brownhills have a better pre sale check...
Only problems we have had are one of the lounge seats not securing properly which was solved by a little adjustment, and the poor design of the bedroom corner cabinets where the door handles protrude and the sharp corners can catch our legs.

 

[ABZSteve]

Well, I can tell you for sure that Perthshire Carvans do a thorough PDI. Stevie does it, think he also sings and plays piano in his spare time, what a guy.

 

[Neckender]

One of the problems I had with our Auto Sleeper was the over cab roof light, they fitted it with screws that were too long and they burst through the fibreglass roof, and the van got passed their quality control.

John.

 

[Jake Royd]

So... British converters are racing to themselves to the bottom are they and they not inspected during the build stage...?

Mmm... maybe in the pages of Enid Blyton's " Five Build A Motorhome."

Who's that then Bailey & Swift? the rest are controlled by either the French or Germans and build to their boardroom decided specifications. Build techniques across all of the European factories owned and controlled by Trigano have been streamlined and rationalised and are very, very similar... I know, I've been in all of them in a previous life. (I worked for a well known consumer group).
Want a Mobilivetta K Yacht but turn your nose up at a Rollerteam Pegaso? They're built side by side on the same production line. That's just one example.

It's about perspective. They all build an equal amount of duds, foreign language owner and consumer forums are full of complaints, again with some even suggesting mainland European constructors are racing themselves to the bottom too.

We all know what it's about...weight, more specifically payload. It'll only get worse throughout the industry, the oldest of the post '97 licence holders are pushing 40 now, it won't be too long before a few will contemplate a preloved van or caravan, the age of ownership is getting younger every year... most can't drive anything over 3.5k far less tow a caravan. How many of these drivers will be happy to fork out another £2k in order to pull a 5 year old Bailey Pegasus or sit behind the wheel of an up-plated preloved Dethleffs? Internal fixtures will inevitably become flimsier as they're not about to start using carbon fibre or buckypaper.

Shoddy build quality on new vans - 3 years old or under - is unacceptable but you'll find it in any mass produced product being constructed to a deadline from a motorhome to a 3 seater sofa.
In most cases for coachbuilders and converters you're given a 5 year warranty on fixtures and fittings... 5 years, that's how long converters expect them to last without major issue, no longer.

Question is how many of us hit the forums if a household kitchen door or drawer front becomes loose after X amount of use... with only a 12 month warranty? How many of us hit the forums when our flat packed bookcase from IKEA is damaged?
Law of averages suggest we change our domestic kitchens and bathrooms every 7-10 years, for beds or mattresses it's 5 years... why do many expect a motorhome's interior to last longer and not suffer any wear and tear along the way?

Bench seats which convert to beds. By design they're not a fixture, they move in and out and are subjected to the same forces as the solid bit of kit you have at home... Ours easily has a combined weight of 30 stone on it when used... you expect it to perform perfectly every time?

The objection of occasional use only holds water for so long. Occasional use actually shortens the life of a motorhome. Not to get too techy but there's a lot of refined fossil fuels in plastics, fabrics and ply's which degrade over time especially when under the constant bombardment of UV when parked on your driveway. Do many owners not understand how much heat and cold can be generated in the living space of a closed up motorhome? Fittings warp and become brittle. You think it's sitting there doing nothing, wrong, it's getting old and stiff.

You try sleeping all winter and see what condition you're in come Spring.

The irony is, the more they're used the longer they last.

I wonder...When does work stop being shoddy and become general wear and tear or for some will the answer always be never?

Plenty of good points given here.
Perhaps it might suffice to say that it's not rocket science to fit a durable drawer mechanism.
To be fair to AT, they will buy from the 1st tier market various mechanisms, all should be fit for purpose.
It must be true that all motorhome converters have to source fittings from perhaps 8 or 10 worldwide suppliers.
It does not seem to me to be too hard to find durable ones, without incuring overheads that feed into base costs.

It's possible that the small volumes of motorhomes sold is just too small (in world terms) for the feedback to influence quality and durability.

 

[Ivory55]

Plenty of good points given here.
Perhaps it might suffice to say that it's not rocket science to fit a durable drawer mechanism.
To be fair to AT, they will buy from the 1st tier market various mechanisms, all should be fit for purpose.
It must be true that all motorhome converters have to source fittings from perhaps 8 or 10 worldwide suppliers.
It does not seem to me to be too hard to find durable ones, without incuring overheads that feed into base costs.

It's possible that the small volumes of motorhomes sold is just too small (in world terms) for the feedback to influence quality and durability.

I would think I am safe in saying the first thing any of the manufacturers ask is how much. They build their product to a price that their experts have told them is the best price to aim for in the market. No point making something that’s really good but nobody can afford.

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[PP Bear]

Looking between the lines on this video, the use of the sealant when dropping the body on the chassis is shocking, then the closeup of the sawn wood is equally as bad.

Love how they go on to talk about the final inspections, but I wonder if they ever conduct stage inspections along the way. If they did, I wonder how many would fail and require additional attention with screws that haven't been put in properly or straight, doors that rattle or don't hang correctly and lose draws and cabinets.

Having owned an AT for many years, I can confirm that it never ceases to amaze me to find shoddy workmanship across both the interior fittings, chassis wiring looms running taught across knife edge metal, excessive wires that are unsecured, crimped and poorly insulated, shoddy attention to both the fresh and waste water pipes etc etc etc.

I emailed AT and posed the question of stage inspection during production, they've never responded.

However, do I enjoy my AT and the answer is most definitely a huge yes, I just expect to find and repair the poor craftsmanship along the way.


A few of my pictures from over he years.

Excess wiring simply resting on the chassis.

More examples

Rounded screws across both back light fittings. Wiring ran across a sharp knife edge hole without any regard to a grommet of any form.

Wiring that ran through the rear panel, I removed it when the lights blew and found many poor examples of shoddy work.

More examples of poor wiring, with potential to fail in the future.

 

[Bart]

One of the problems I had with our Auto Sleeper was the over cab roof light, they fitted it with screws that were too long and they burst through the fibreglass roof, and the van got passed their quality control.

John.

What auto sleeper model was it

 

[tonyidle]

So... British converters are racing to themselves to the bottom are they and they not inspected during the build stage...?

Mmm... maybe in the pages of Enid Blyton's " Five Build A Motorhome."

Who's that then Bailey & Swift? the rest are controlled by either the French or Germans and build to their boardroom decided specifications. Build techniques across all of the European factories owned and controlled by Trigano have been streamlined and rationalised and are very, very similar... I know, I've been in all of them in a previous life. (I worked for a well known consumer group).
Want a Mobilivetta K Yacht but turn your nose up at a Rollerteam Pegaso? They're built side by side on the same production line. That's just one example.

It's about perspective. They all build an equal amount of duds, foreign language owner and consumer forums are full of complaints, again with some even suggesting mainland European constructors are racing themselves to the bottom too.

We all know what it's about...weight, more specifically payload. It'll only get worse throughout the industry, the oldest of the post '97 licence holders are pushing 40 now, it won't be too long before a few will contemplate a preloved van or caravan, the age of ownership is getting younger every year... most can't drive anything over 3.5k far less tow a caravan. How many of these drivers will be happy to fork out another £2k in order to pull a 5 year old Bailey Pegasus or sit behind the wheel of an up-plated preloved Dethleffs? Internal fixtures will inevitably become flimsier as they're not about to start using carbon fibre or buckypaper.

Shoddy build quality on new vans - 3 years old or under - is unacceptable but you'll find it in any mass produced product being constructed to a deadline from a motorhome to a 3 seater sofa.
In most cases for coachbuilders and converters you're given a 5 year warranty on fixtures and fittings... 5 years, that's how long converters expect them to last without major issue, no longer.

Question is how many of us hit the forums if a household kitchen door or drawer front becomes loose after X amount of use... with only a 12 month warranty? How many of us hit the forums when our flat packed bookcase from IKEA is damaged?
Law of averages suggest we change our domestic kitchens and bathrooms every 7-10 years, for beds or mattresses it's 5 years... why do many expect a motorhome's interior to last longer and not suffer any wear and tear along the way?

Bench seats which convert to beds. By design they're not a fixture, they move in and out and are subjected to the same forces as the solid bit of kit you have at home... Ours easily has a combined weight of 30 stone on it when used... you expect it to perform perfectly every time?

The objection of occasional use only holds water for so long. Occasional use actually shortens the life of a motorhome. Not to get too techy but there's a lot of refined fossil fuels in plastics, fabrics and ply's which degrade over time especially when under the constant bombardment of UV when parked on your driveway. Do many owners not understand how much heat and cold can be generated in the living space of a closed up motorhome? Fittings warp and become brittle. You think it's sitting there doing nothing, wrong, it's getting old and stiff.

You try sleeping all winter and see what condition you're in come Spring.

The irony is, the more they're used the longer they last.

I wonder...When does work stop being shoddy and become general wear and tear or for some will the answer always be never?

I agree with most of what you say but I always feel that the components of a caravan or motorhome are of reasonable to good quality thrown together by unskilled labour. Simple examples are different length fasteners with different heads along the length of a single panel, csk screws buried halfway through the panel, screw spacing arbitrary, wiring fastenings not in line and unevenly spaced, holes for wiring broken through panels rather than drilled, electrical wiring apparently installed by at least three different people on different days and undocumented, electrical connections soldered then taped, electronic components soldered within wiring, taped, then buried in a bundle of wires, 12v wiring mostly using 3-core mains flex with the green/yellow cut off. I could go on (and on). These examples are from my current, supposedly up-market, French A Class that cost north of 100K when new.

 

[Bart]

These examples are from my current, supposedly up-market, French A Class that cost north of 100K when new.

OUCH!! Tony I bet you were /are fuming to see such crap workmanship for such a high price tag.

 

[Ivory55]

I agree with most of what you say but I always feel that the components of a caravan or motorhome are of reasonable to good quality thrown together by unskilled labour. Simple examples are different length fasteners with different heads along the length of a single panel, csk screws buried halfway through the panel, screw spacing arbitrary, wiring fastenings not in line and unevenly spaced, holes for wiring broken through panels rather than drilled, electrical wiring apparently installed by at least three different people on different days and undocumented, electrical connections soldered then taped, electronic components soldered within wiring, taped, then buried in a bundle of wires, 12v wiring mostly using 3-core mains flex with the green/yellow cut off. I could go on (and on). These examples are from my current, supposedly up-market, French A Class that cost north of 100K when new.

Think you will find that in most buisness now days, the job is dumbed down and then use a load of zero hours agency worker when there is an increase in demand and get rid of them when it slowed up. So you’re not going to get your skilled workers doing it for years etc anywhere now.

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[peterc10]

So... British converters are racing to themselves to the bottom are they and they not inspected during the build stage...?

Mmm... maybe in the pages of Enid Blyton's " Five Build A Motorhome."

Who's that then Bailey & Swift? the rest are controlled by either the French or Germans and build to their boardroom decided specifications. Build techniques across all of the European factories owned and controlled by Trigano have been streamlined and rationalised and are very, very similar... I know, I've been in all of them in a previous life. (I worked for a well known consumer group).
Want a Mobilivetta K Yacht but turn your nose up at a Rollerteam Pegaso? They're built side by side on the same production line. That's just one example.

It's about perspective. They all build an equal amount of duds, foreign language owner and consumer forums are full of complaints, again with some even suggesting mainland European constructors are racing themselves to the bottom too.

We all know what it's about...weight, more specifically payload. It'll only get worse throughout the industry, the oldest of the post '97 licence holders are pushing 40 now, it won't be too long before a few will contemplate a preloved van or caravan, the age of ownership is getting younger every year... most can't drive anything over 3.5k far less tow a caravan. How many of these drivers will be happy to fork out another £2k in order to pull a 5 year old Bailey Pegasus or sit behind the wheel of an up-plated preloved Dethleffs? Internal fixtures will inevitably become flimsier as they're not about to start using carbon fibre or buckypaper.

Shoddy build quality on new vans - 3 years old or under - is unacceptable but you'll find it in any mass produced product being constructed to a deadline from a motorhome to a 3 seater sofa.
In most cases for coachbuilders and converters you're given a 5 year warranty on fixtures and fittings... 5 years, that's how long converters expect them to last without major issue, no longer.

Question is how many of us hit the forums if a household kitchen door or drawer front becomes loose after X amount of use... with only a 12 month warranty? How many of us hit the forums when our flat packed bookcase from IKEA is damaged?
Law of averages suggest we change our domestic kitchens and bathrooms every 7-10 years, for beds or mattresses it's 5 years... why do many expect a motorhome's interior to last longer and not suffer any wear and tear along the way?

Bench seats which convert to beds. By design they're not a fixture, they move in and out and are subjected to the same forces as the solid bit of kit you have at home... Ours easily has a combined weight of 30 stone on it when used... you expect it to perform perfectly every time?

The objection of occasional use only holds water for so long. Occasional use actually shortens the life of a motorhome. Not to get too techy but there's a lot of refined fossil fuels in plastics, fabrics and ply's which degrade over time especially when under the constant bombardment of UV when parked on your driveway. Do many owners not understand how much heat and cold can be generated in the living space of a closed up motorhome? Fittings warp and become brittle. You think it's sitting there doing nothing, wrong, it's getting old and stiff.

You try sleeping all winter and see what condition you're in come Spring.

The irony is, the more they're used the longer they last.

I wonder...When does work stop being shoddy and become general wear and tear or for some will the answer always be never?

I sometimes wish that IKEA would build motorhomes. At least they would get fully tested before they were presented to the public.

Our 18 year old IKEA kitchen still works as well as when it was fitted, including the moving parts like drawers and hinges. We have had a couple of Billy bookcases that are still working despite them being well over 20 years old and suffering a house move.

 

[tonyidle]

OUCH!! Tony I bet you were /are fuming to see such crap workmanship for such a high price tag.

Annoying but not surprising. .

 

[tonyidle]

Think you will find that in most buisness now days, the job is dumbed down and then use a load of zero hours agency worker when there is an increase in demand and get rid of them when it slowed up. So you’re not going to get your skilled workers doing it for years etc anywhere now.

Agreed. None of it was any great surprise and with care what matters (to me anyway) can be corrected. The skill level employed is easily spotted when you find work that could have been done correctly as easily as it was bodged.
Some industries lend themselves to untrained labour because tasks are broken down to be so simplistic and repetetive that, with the correct tools, poor workmanship is eliminated. Building the short production run complex bodyshells of motorhomes isn't one of them.

 

[tonyidle]

I sometimes wish that IKEA would build motorhomes.

You'd spend the first couple of years trying to assemble it if they did.

 

[Neckender]

What auto sleeper model was it

It was a Broadway EB Bart.

John.

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