Safefill no longer allowed to be refilled at Morrisons

[Garry - June]

How qualified are you, if you don’t mind me asking?

I'm not... and your point is what? I'm not qualified in lots of things but do my own vehicle electrics when possible and also do my own servicing... not qualified in any of those either.
We lived on a 40ft catamaran for 5 yrs in the Med before taking up motorhoming ... you have to learn to fend for yourself on boats and learn to fix things ... cant call a mechanic or gas safe engineer when you are 50 miles out at sea..

 

[Garry - June]

You are absolutely entitled to use things that could kill you.

There are however lots you could do to make the kit much safer. You have already identified moving the power source further away and extending the cables.

I would also be putting the bottle in a stand that can’t fall over along with making sure the hoses are secured in some way to the pump so can’t be pulled out accidentally mid transfer.

In fact, I would make the power cables very long and switch on from a distance. Along with making sure nobody was within 400m of the vehicle.

That’s a basic risk assessment from looking at the photo, I have no doubt it would be worse if I looked at the kit. You do have to say if all that is necessary to not die, you probably shouldn’t be using it.

It’s easy to take opposing views and I applaud your tenacity in defending the indefensible, but that kit is fine, until it isn’t.

I actually agree with all that as everything can be improved ... including the last line... "Everything is fine until it isnt"
You can apply that statement to everything but if you did you would never step out of your house...
How many are killed annually as a result of tire blowouts for example... yet we all trundle around in our vans...many probably overweight... and I would be willing to hazard a guess that most owners have never even checked or looked at the condition of their tires in months if not years.. Indefensible I would suggest.

 

[RowleyBirkinQC]

I'm not... and your point is what? I'm not qualified in lots of things but do my own vehicle electrics when possible and also do my own servicing... not qualified in any of those either.
We lived on a 40ft catamaran for 5 yrs in the Med before taking up motorhoming ... you have to learn to fend for yourself on boats and learn to fix things ... cant call a mechanic or gas safe engineer when you are 50 miles out at sea..

In the event that something did go pear shaped resulting in loss of property or harm to others, I wonder how that justification would stand up legally for such home/land based exploits?

 

[BusyBuilder]

So back on topic, are Morrisons letting us with external fill points use their forecourt to fill lpg. ??

 

[Pausim]

I doubt those people at the Morrisons fire thought they knew better, more likely a case of ignorance is bliss!!

Ignorance and stupidity can often be found in the same place.

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[BikerGraham]

So back on topic, are Morrisons letting us with external fill points use their forecourt to fill lpg. ?

My filler was installed by the dealer inside the locker. Never had a problem but when return from this trip will try to refill at my local Morrisons. If there is an issue the. I will look to have the filler relocated to outside. Provided others are finding that is being accepted

 

[Brains]

So back on topic, are Morrisons letting us with external fill points use their forecourt to fill lpg. ??

Yes, it would appear so.
As several others with external fill points have not been stopped since the missive was distributed.

It's the "bottle in the locker" fillers they seem to be aiming at.

 

[Barti Ddu]

Thats me then...and working perfectly too.. I'll report back in a few years if Im still alive and let you know how its going..

Garry - Has June read this thread yet?

Perhaps she should!

 

[Minxy]

Garry - Has June read this thread yet?

Perhaps she should!

Maybe this is June, however I suspect she's got more sense than to do this, or she's got him well insured!

 

[Lpgc]

If the motor car / motor home was invented today nobody would be allowed to use one because of health and safety zealots.

Allow people to drive something that weighs a couple of tons along the road when people are walking on the causeway beside? When other people are allowed to drive a similar several tons vehicle on the same road coming at you in the opposite direction? When almost anyone could have a lapse of concentration at any time? When tyres could lose grip, especially if it's raining. Riding around sitting on top of 15 gallons of petrol that's in a plastic tank? With an electric fuel pump inside that plastic petrol tank? And the electric fuel pump isn't even ATEX rated?

Allow people to refuel with highly flammable liquids or gasses on a forecourt alongside other people doing it at the same time, red hot engine exhaust manifolds pulling up besides fuel pumps, all that electrical equipment inside the car and under the bonnet. Bits or car open to the atmosphere that could cause sparks including the clutch and brakes. I bet we have all at some point got out of a vehicle, gone to close the door and got an electric shock when we touched the door due to static electricity, that's another spark that might be caused depending on the material of the jumper and/or shoes you're wearing. Maybe a zealout should push for a rule that says nobody can wear a nylon jumper when entering a forecourt, or should wear a certain type of shoes, and everyone should stop 50 yards before a forecourt to get out of the car and touch the door handle to discharge any static that's built up. A different zealout might say jumpers should be tested. A different zealout might say shoes should be tested. A different zealout might say cars should have a metal panel on the inside so people charged with static could touch that panel to discharge the static before they even get out of the vehicle. It might depend on what line of work the zealout is in... If they test clothes they're probably going to say the clothes should be tested, if they test cars shoes they're probably going to say shoes should be tested, if they test cars they're probably going to say the car should have the panel. If they test stuff for use suitability/safety in areas where there might be flammable dust or fumes they might say it's the forecourt itself that should be tested and they might start drawing parallels to private home users using a syphon or pump at home in the open air not even on a forecourt. Some of these things are ridiculous but you could make a safety point of them. Some of these things might seem relevant but either are not relevant for use at home or are a bit beside the point because the test/rating/inspection doesn't apply and even if it did the supposed safety concern isn't present due to the intrinsic design.

Even if the mentioned car components were ATEX rated the owner would be allowed to buy an older pre ATEX car and refuel it on the forecourt, even wearing a nylon jumper. Or refuel it at home using a syphon. Or pump.

You might insist that every aspect of a car and forecourt meets every safety zealout's recommendations (although that would be difficult because they disagree among themselves) only for lightning to hit the refuelling pipe between the pump and the car.

Everything you do is a risk. You could try to lower risks of an accident by staying in bed all day, but then you'd increase health risks by not taking any exercise.

Somewhere online there will be a dining forum and we might expect there to be a FORKEX fork inspector on that forum telling users that any fork anyone uses should be FORKEX inspected or diners risk choking if the end of the fork falls off... And for there to be others on that forum who believe it and mock the casual diner who isn't afraid of using most any fork. Be careful with your forks, it is possible for the end to fall off due to metal / plastic fatigue and for plastic forks to suffer UV damage that makes the ends brittle and more likely to snap off. FORKEX was set up by a bloke who used to work for NASA and was involved in testing components for the space shuttle until the space shuttle program ended forcing him to find a job appropriate for his skills which he found in the dining sector. I don't know of anyone who has ever chocked on a broken off end of fork that wasn't FORKEX inspected but never say never and remember there will always be a first time, as any reasonable person will already realise. Apparently FORKEX rated forks are available at £100 each, a reasonable person will use their fingers for eating if they don't want to spend that much on a FORKEX rated fork. Anyone using their fingers to eat should at least buy a thermometer to check they're not going to burn their fingers when picking up food. The thermometer should be THERMOMEX rated or might release dangerous chemicals into the food.

The pump however is completely sealed, similar in that respect to pumps fitted on every fuel injected petrol car. So you might think that even if a zealout says something must be rated according to what they say, you could expect it to be safe because other similar designs are safe and they have not been put through the test the zealout said they should go through. Maybe even if you're concerned about forks you probably needn't be concerned about using the pump. Then again if you're concerned about forks maybe you should stay in bed.

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[Minxy]

The professional installation of a BBQ point caused us to have a 5ft blowtorch in the centre of a previous MH due to the fitting coming apart inside a cupboard. If you want to read about it just do a search under my name and 'blowtorch' and you should be able to find the details. The ignition source was determined to be static electricity.

Gas should be respected and not messed with and due to the above I always do my own gas work now which means I move my Gaslow cylinder system from MH to MH myself installing an external filler point, everything done carefully and checked for leaks etc. I have never had an issue with my installations. I've also helped others who have had problems and sorted them out.

Would I do what you are? Not a chance!!!! There are so many ways it could go wrong it's frightening and the laid back attitude that comes through is even more scary.

 

[cyberyacht]

Yes, it would appear so.
As several others with external fill points have not been stopped since the missive was distributed.

It's the "bottle in the locker" fillers they seem to be aiming at.

I can't see how grade forecourts are actually going to be able to differentiate between 'cylinders' and 'tanks' if they are out of sight, short of inspecting the routing of every external fill-point before activating the pump.

This prohibition is likely to encourage the fitting of remote fillers to 'normal' refillable systems like Safefill, a practice that Basildog deprecates. Perhaps he could expand on the inherent hazards other than the evident one of a hose full of liquid gas, which would pertain to any type of system surely.

 

[Jimbohorlicks]

So back on topic, are Morrisons letting us with external fill points use their forecourt to fill lpg. ??

It's something your going to have to try and trust that the attendant turns the pump on for you.

 

[Lpgc]

Gas bottles are cylinders, an LPG powered vehicle might have a cylinder tank.

A diesel engine cannot be converted to run on 100% diesel but it can be converted to run on diesel with a minor percentage of the fuelling coming from LPG, as known as an LPG supplementation system. Diesel LPG supplementation systems are not common but there will be diesel motorhomes that have an autogas LPG supplementation system fitted.

It would be very difficult for forecourt staff to be able to know if a campervan that had an external filling point was filling a tank/cylinder used to fuel the engine as part of an LPG supplementation system, or to fill a tank used to fuel appliances such as the cooker / fridge, or to fill Safefill type bottles used to fuel appliances such as the cooker / fridge.

There is a difference between a tank that fuels an engine and a tank that provides gas for appliances. A tank for the engine has an internal pickup pipe that runs to the bottom of the tank so the tank outputs liquid gas. A tank for use with a regulator / appliances doesn't have the internal pickup pipe and outputs gas vapour. Sometimes a dedicated permanently fitted gas vapour output tank will be coloured red, where-as most tanks that fuel engines are black. But it is possible to fit a different valve even to black tanks so they output vapour instead of liquid. And again it would be difficult for forecourt staff to be able to determine if a tank were to fuel the engine or appliances.

I don't know what Morrisons have said since the incident. Maybe they will allow campervans to fill with LPG if they have an external filler even if it is behind a door, maybe they will allow campervans to fill with LPG only if the filling point is completely external. Or the worst outcome would be if they won't allow campervans to refuel with LPG at all. But I can't see how (particularly if the filler is fitted externally) forecourt staff could differentiate between a campervan with a supplementation system and a campervan filling bottles or a permanently fitted tank used to fuel appliances.

 

[Lpgc]

The professional installation of a BBQ point caused us to have a 5ft blowtorch in the centre of a previous MH due to the fitting coming apart inside a cupboard. If you want to read about it just do a search under my name and 'blowtorch' and you should be able to find the details. The ignition source was determined to be static electricity.

Gas should be respected and not messed with and due to the above I always do my own gas work now which means I move my Gaslow cylinder system from MH to MH myself installing an external filler point, everything done carefully and checked for leaks etc. I have never had an issue with my installations. I've also helped others who have had problems and sorted them out.

Would I do what you are? Not a chance!!!! There are so many ways it could go wrong it's frightening and the laid back attitude that comes through is even more scary.

Sorry to read that, sounds terrible.

A professional who is supposedly 'qualified' to fit gas systems - and inspect them?

I don't know if you are qualified? If not how do you know the work you do is safe? I'm not having a go or saying you're wrong to do it but why do you think your work is better than the (or another) professional's?

Anything dangerous should be respected, but you say anything dangerous should not be messed with then you say you do mess with it. I have little doubt you are competent at messing with it too, at least to go as far as move your Gaslow system from one vehicle to another and fit the external filling points. But if you're not qualified there will be people saying you shouldn't be messing with it and I might suggest that if you were not so comfortable doing it you might agree with them.

Then it seems you wouldn't be comfortable messing with the pumps. But I could suggest that if you did feel comfortable with the pumps you might use one. There could be plenty people telling you you shouldn't be fitting your own Gaslow and filling points even if you are comfortable doing so, you have become one of the people who are telling people who are comfortable 'messing' with pumps that they shouldn't be doing it based on the fact you wouldn't feel comfortable doing it.

Not so long ago I was asked by the wife of a motorhome owner if I could look at a gas system that the owner had fitted himself, they could both smell gas. He had fitted an underslung vapour tank, external filling point and done all the gas piping including the piping inside by himself. I started at the tank and made my way along the complete gas system until I found the leak which was internal. The owner had run pipes both external and internal with just the odd clip and pipes generally free floating inches from any panels etc. The leak was at a T near the cooker at the rear, he hadn't tightened any of the olive joints properly and had used some sort of sealant on joints that he shouldn't have used any sealant on. His wife said he used to be OK at that kind of thing but had become a bit forgetful. I fixed the leak but advised that the whole gas system should not be used and that the gas should be left turned off at the tank until the system was completely refitted properly.

Another one was an engineer (of some sorts - I've had plenty customers who told me they were an engineer, sometimes it turns out they're engineers in a completely different discipline to what is relevant) who fitted his own system with 2 refillable red bottles inside a gas locker and external filler screwed to the outer sill. He'd used Faro pipe, which is normally great stuff if fitted properly. When I asked if he'd put the split Faro olives/clips on the right way he said yes he definitely remembered putting them on the right way. When I checked I found he'd put the one connecting to the filler pipe on the wrong way. He'd also got some pipes kinked inside the gas locker.

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[BrochMike]

I could suggest that if you did feel comfortable with the pumps you might use one.

As per earlier query, please confirm if you are producing the LPG pump being questioned in this thread?

This is simply so we can assess the level of independence of your comments relating to said device.

 

[Purrfecttune]

Some good points above re. fitting.

We had a gas low system fitted last year (by a so called professional) just before going to Europe for 3 months. We noticed an increasingly smell of gas and seemed to get through more than expected, emailed the fitter and heard nothing back. Shortly after our return we had a hab service and they discovered that most of the connectors in the gas locker were loose

Consequently, this year, we used much less gas!

 

[Lpgc]

As per earlier query, please confirm if you are producing the LPG pump being questioned in this thread?

This is simply so we can assess the level of independence of your comments relating to said device.

Yes I do confirm that it is me that sells the pumps and I have always intended to say so.

There are 2 main subjects discussed on this thread. There is the subject of the incident at Morrisons that may have a knock on effect on all of us that refuel at forecourts, either for fuel for our engines or for fuel for our appliances. And there is the subject of the pump.

I was told about this thread by the buyer of one of my pumps and it just so happens that I was already a member of this forum. As a professional vehicle LPG converter I first commented on the Morrisons incident giving some insights and background knowledge about why we're seeing fewer forecourt pumps these days. Reading through this thread it seems a lot of people have already made their mind up - in fact they probably made their mind up when they were kids that gas is always unsafe, 'should not be messed with' and there should be no such thing as a pump you can use at home because they can't see how that could be safe. Others will have been helped to make their mind up by comments from people who say they know the rules and what they do at work applies here when actually it doesn't apply here... But it all adds on to what people think they already know and re-inforces pre-existing fears - They expect to be told it isn't safe so when someone who reckons they work in a field that tests this sort of stuff and this isn't tested they mock the buyer of the equipment and the person who sold it to them. Yet even among those who might mock there are people who do their own gas work while some of those 'safety' people would like them to believe they shouldn't be doing their own gas work. People use all sorts of equipment they might have grown up fearing, some are real and obvious concerns such as don't mix electricity and water, yet they have no fear having an electric shower because that's become the norm. There are plenty similar design pumps that people sit on top of every day pumping fuel to their car engine, they're not ATEX rated but are intrinsically safe due to the design which is similar to the petrol car pump design. When fuel injected vehicles first came out there was a common misunderstanding that if the car ever ran out of petrol the car might explode due to the fuel pump working in vapour. Some of these misunderstandings were even instigated by 'safety' people, sometimes out of real concern, other times for some other reason. Some people/owners were worried about cars blowing up if they ran out of petrol but not anymore, there are more cars with similar pumps than there are electric showers.

One of the reasons I made the pumps in the first place was to help people who had an existing LPG converted vehicle (or refillable gas bottle setup) but their local forecourt had closed. It is/was to give people another option for refuelling when a forecourt is no longer easily available. These days it is possible to buy gas in 47kg bottles at a cheaper price than from a forecourt, and to have it delivered to home (they collect the empty and drop off a full one). I never need to leave home to refuel my cars which run on LPG and it is cheaper and more convenient than refuelling at forecourts.

 

[Garry - June]

In the event that something did go pear shaped resulting in loss of property or harm to others, I wonder how that justification would stand up legally for such home/land based exploits?

And where exactly is there anything that states in law that only qualification backed personnel can do such work as any of what I have mentioned on my vehicle.

 

[Garry - June]

The professional installation of a BBQ point caused us to have a 5ft blowtorch in the centre of a previous MH due to the fitting coming apart inside a cupboard. If you want to read about it just do a search under my name and 'blowtorch' and you should be able to find the details. The ignition source was determined to be static electricity.

Gas should be respected and not messed with and due to the above I always do my own gas work now which means I move my Gaslow cylinder system from MH to MH myself installing an external filler point, everything done carefully and checked for leaks etc. I have never had an issue with my installations. I've also helped others who have had problems and sorted them out.

Would I do what you are? Not a chance!!!! There are so many ways it could go wrong it's frightening and the laid back attitude that comes through is even more scary.

So what you are basically saying is you maybe should have fitted the BBQ fitment yourself if you were confident enough to try it in that way you could have been certain the job had been done correctly to start with and not by a so called expert on a Friday afternoon keen to get home after a long week .. which sort of backs up my point too of doing the job myself to make sure its done right..
Nothing "laid back attitude" at all... I am very careful with what I do and what I use... like I said right at the very beginning... using a bit of common sense ..
But thanks again for your concern.

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[Gellyneck]

And where exactly is there anything that states in law that only qualification backed personnel can do such work as any of what I have mentioned on my vehicle.

but as RowleyBirkinQC alludes to you would have a third party liability and, as the method you are using is contrary to manufacturer recommendations / advice (eg cylinder should be stored / used upright), you may not be covered by insurance with a potential claim/s of multi-thousands of pounds, if not worse.

 

[Googlebot]

I don’t see gas as unsafe at all, I do my own gas work at home. I am competent and used to labour for a gas fitter so I do have a modicum of what I am doing.

What I am saying however is that the kit being sold is inherently unsafe being used as it is. That isn’t an arguable point for all the reasons I mentioned earlier.

I also have vast experience of what happens when people get things wrong. Nothing about that setup makes me want to go and buy it.

Good luck to those who use it and even more luck to those selling it. As a manufacturer you do owe your customers a duty of care that the product is safe to use, I hope nobody is seriously injured and it isn’t financially ruinous for you if and when that happens.

Morrisons banned bottle refilling, despite thousands of people saying it’s safe to fill Calor gas cylinders with the stupid adapters.

But here we are.

 

[Lpgc]

but as RowleyBirkinQC alludes to you would have a third party liability and, as the method you are using is contrary to manufacturer recommendations / advice (eg cylinder should be stored / used upright), you may not be covered by insurance with a potential claim/s of multi-thousands of pounds, if not worse.

The insurance argument and a wide range of other arguments could be made against a lot of things people do. Where do people keep their cans of petrol for the lawnmower and what tests should be done on the funnel. I doubt people feel the need to dig out their insurance policy's before refilling the lawnmower because they know they're going to be safe and nothing will come of it that will make a claim necessary.. but if this were a lawnmowing forum and there were 'safety' people on forum there might be some people persuaded they should think a lot more about it. The person who'd been storing a few litres of petrol in their outside shed and using a conventional funnel could suddenly find themselves ridiculed with safety and insurance points being brought up. You could even make the same point about someone having a party in a house, what about emergency exits etc. Someone who does safety inspections at work could ask about your party and tell you that you need to move the Hoover from the hall because it might get in the way of people moving toward the door, and maybe you should have had an emergency exit bar fitted to both doors and clear 'exit' signs put up before having that many people in the house. There could even be an argument that the emergency exit signs need to be illuminated with their own battery back up systems, and another argument about what type of battery back up system would need to be fitted.

The bottled gas company that delivers gas to me sometimes carries the bottles laid horizontally on a lorry, like me they too do not have a panic attack when gas is mentioned. In some ways the bottle is safer when connected to the pump than it is when it is stood upright fuelling a barbeque. If it's connected to the pump it doesn't matter what orientation it's at in terms of safety, just the pump won't pump if it's fed with vapour instead of liquid. In contrast if it's connected to the barbeque using a regulator and gets knocked over there could be big yellow flames from the bbq. The reasons for standing a bottle upright include that if the tap is opened on the bottle when it's laid down and nothing is connected to it some liquid gas might escape, or if a pressure relief valve is fitted and were to open liquid gas might escape. But when the pump is connected gas won't escape even if the valve is open, and the least likely time a pressure relief valve will open is when pressure in the bottle is decreasing because gas is being drawn from the bottle, like say if gas is being pumped out of the bottle.

 

[Gellyneck]

The insurance argument and a wide range of other arguments could be made against a lot of things people do. Where do people keep their cans of petrol for the lawnmower and what tests should be done on the funnel. I doubt people feel the need to dig out their insurance policy's before refilling the lawnmower because they know they're going to be safe and nothing will come of it that will make a claim necessary.. but if this were a lawnmowing forum and there were 'safety' people on forum there might be some people persuaded they should think a lot more about it. The person who'd been storing a few litres of petrol in their outside shed and using a conventional funnel could suddenly find themselves ridiculed with safety and insurance points being brought up. You could even make the same point about someone having a party in a house, what about emergency exits etc. Someone who does safety inspections at work could ask about your party and tell you that you need to move the Hoover from the hall because it might get in the way of people moving toward the door, and maybe you should have had an emergency exit bar fitted to both doors and clear 'exit' signs put up before having that many people in the house. There could even be an argument that the emergency exit signs need to be illuminated with their own battery back up systems, and another argument about what type of battery back up system would need to be fitted.

The bottled gas company that delivers gas to me sometimes carries the bottles laid horizontally on a lorry, like me they too do not have a panic attack when gas is mentioned. In some ways the bottle is safer when connected to the pump than it is when it is stood upright fuelling a barbeque. If it's connected to the pump it doesn't matter what orientation it's at in terms of safety, just the pump won't pump if it's fed with vapour instead of liquid. In contrast if it's connected to the barbeque using a regulator and gets knocked over there could be big yellow flames from the bbq. The reasons for standing a bottle upright include that if the tap is opened on the bottle when it's laid down and nothing is connected to it some liquid gas might escape, or if a pressure relief valve is fitted and were to open liquid gas might escape. But when the pump is connected gas won't escape even if the valve is open, and the least likely time a pressure relief valve will open is when pressure in the bottle is decreasing because gas is being drawn from the bottle, like say if gas is being pumped out of the bottle.

Given you haven't specifically disputed my comment I assume you agree storing / using a cylinder on it's side / inverted is contrary to the manufacturers recommendations / advice and third party liability could be an issue.

I believe storage and use of petrol, residence overcrowding, domestic usage of LPG, etc are all covered by specific regulations (don't ask me what they are) as opposed to my comment on third party liability / insurance on your "And where exactly is there anything that states in law that only qualification backed personnel can do such work as any of what I have mentioned on my vehicle." I was responding to.

 

[Lpgc]

Given you haven't specifically disputed my comment I assume you agree storing / using a cylinder on it's side / inverted is contrary to the manufacturers recommendations / advice and third party liability could be an issue.

I believe storage and use of petrol, residence overcrowding, domestic usage of LPG, etc are all covered by specific regulations (don't ask me what they are) as opposed to my comment on third party liability / insurance on your "And where exactly is there anything that states in law that only qualification backed personnel can do such work as any of what I have mentioned on my vehicle." I was responding to.

I didn't specifically dispute your comment but I did explain the usual reasons for not storing a cylinder on it's side and added that those who are in the business of supplying full and empty gas bottles do sometimes carry gas bottles sideways themselves.

I'll add to that that a gas bottle is equally as strong any way up, it isn't like it's tupperware and the lid might fall off.

The advice is not to store or use them sideways or upside down, part of the reason for not using them sideways or upside down will be familiar to anyone who's ever tried doing it using a regulator. The regulator needs a supply of gas in vapour form not liquid form and the regulator will not work correctly if fed with liquid gas. Like I said, if you feed one of your regulators with liquid gas you might find that any appliance (bbq in my example) you run from it suddenly gets tall yellow flames, or maybe the regulator will have a safety shut-off or be 2 stage in which case it might shut off gas to your appliance completely or might continue to work normally for a while. The pump pumps liquid gas, hence needs a liquid feed, hence if you're feeding it with gas from a bottle the bottle should be on it's side or upside down. I think you would find that if these bottled gas companies want to pump liquid gas out of a bottle they would invert the bottle themselves, physics dictates that's the best way, otherwise they'd need to use a vapour pump and compressor setup that would take much longer than the upside down method, not be as safe and use much more electricity. The other reason is because the pressure relief valve, if fitted, is on the top of the bottle. If the pressure relief valve is going to open you want it to release vapour not liquid as releasing vapour emits 1/270th the quantity of gas and has a quicker cooling effect on the gas inside the bottle. But the least likely time a pressure relief valve is going to open is when gas is being drawn from the tank because when gas is being drawn from the tank the pressure decreases - If a prv were going to open it would be much more likely to open before you started pumping gas out of it than during or afterwards. In fact if a prv were going to open it would be safer to use the pump to pump some gas out of it than to not use the pump to pump some gas out of it.

I didn't say the other words you quoted... but the person who did say they can do their own work on their vehicle or its gas system is correct.

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[Minxy]

A professional who is supposedly 'qualified' to fit gas systems - and inspect them?

Yes, they were raked over the coals by the independent inspector about the atrocious way they'd installed it, it all had to be taken out and done properly then reinspected.

I don't know if you are qualified? If not how do you know the work you do is safe? I'm not having a go or saying you're wrong to do it but why do you think your work is better than the (or another) professional's?

No I'm not qualified but I've always been very careful to ensure I knew how it's done, and looked at such systems in the flesh before doing my first one and checking a few times over a few days to make sure nothing is missed/wrong (a leak would show up in that time). My last installation was actually tested and passed by Gaslow when I bought a recertified cylinder off them so it shows it has been done correctly.

I think the most important thing is knowing my limits, whilst I'm happy to do the cylinder 'dance' I wouldn't feel happy to do an under vehicle tank installation at present without doing more research etc.

 

[Gellyneck]

I didn't specifically dispute your comment but I did explain the usual reasons for not storing a cylinder on it's side and added that those who are in the business of supplying full and empty gas bottles do sometimes carry gas bottles sideways themselves.

I'll add to that that a gas bottle is equally as strong any way up, it isn't like it's tupperware and the lid might fall off.

The advice is not to store or use them sideways or upside down, part of the reason for not using them sideways or upside down will be familiar to anyone who's ever tried doing it using a regulator. The regulator needs a supply of gas in vapour form not liquid form and the regulator will not work correctly if fed with liquid gas. Like I said, if you feed one of your regulators with liquid gas you might find that any appliance (bbq in my example) you run from it suddenly gets tall yellow flames, or maybe the regulator will have a safety shut-off or be 2 stage in which case it might shut off gas to your appliance completely or might continue to work normally for a while. The pump pumps liquid gas, hence needs a liquid feed, hence if you're feeding it with gas from a bottle the bottle should be on it's side or upside down. I think you would find that if these bottled gas companies want to pump liquid gas out of a bottle they would invert the bottle themselves, physics dictates that's the best way, otherwise they'd need to use a vapour pump and compressor setup that would take much longer than the upside down method, not be as safe and use much more electricity. The other reason is because the pressure relief valve, if fitted, is on the top of the bottle. If the pressure relief valve is going to open you want it to release vapour not liquid as releasing vapour emits 1/270th the quantity of gas and has a quicker cooling effect on the gas inside the bottle. But the least likely time a pressure relief valve is going to open is when gas is being drawn from the tank because when gas is being drawn from the tank the pressure decreases - If a prv were going to open it would be much more likely to open before you started pumping gas out of it than during or afterwards. In fact if a prv were going to open it would be safer to use the pump to pump some gas out of it than to not use the pump to pump some gas out of it.

I didn't say the other words you quoted... but the person who did say they can do their own work on their vehicle or its gas system is correct.

Apologies, I missed that you were not the person I originally responded to.

The only point I'm making is that of potential third party liability issues and not whether what you are describing is good, bad or indifferent so there's no point in trying to justify the acceptability of it to me.

Do you have a view on the potential issue of third party liability IF something goes wrong with the process being debated?

ps in a spirit of "disclosure" I'm a Safefill user (2 x 19L) and replenish them at a local major LPG outlet so would never consider the process you're describing.

 

[Lpgc]

Apologies, I missed that you were not the person I originally responded to.

The only point I'm making is that of potential third party liability issues and not whether what you are describing is good, bad or indifferent so there's no point in trying to justify the acceptability of it to me.

Do you have a view on the potential issue of third party liability IF something goes wrong with the process being debated?

ps in a spirit of "disclosure" I'm a Safefill user (2 x 19L) and replenish them at a local major LPG outlet so would never consider the process you're describing.

Not to worry, I nearly included to say I could understand you thinking it was me who'd posted what you did respond to. No problem, It's easily done when there's a few people posting on a thread.

What I meant was people would find they'd have a problem with 3rd party liability if something went wrong with quite a few things they probably don't think twice about doing. I really don't know about pumping gas or topping the lawn mower up with petrol. But even if there is a clause in house insurance that says we're not covered to pump gas or top up the lawn mower it wouldn't make me think twice about doing it because the risks involved in both are small. Nobody (else) should jump on the fact I said risk, there is a risk in doing anything. But it does seem it's been brought up here because there are a few that don't like the idea of a pump even if they haven't thought of anything specific that might make it dangerous. Granted people aren't used to the idea of a pump, or having gas bottles sideways or upside down and granted gas can be dangerous... But there are other granteds such as people are generally more afraid of gas than they are of other fuels and this makes them apprehensive if there's any mention of doing something that seems out of the ordinary with it. People say "I do my own gas pipes etc and I'm not scared of it" but gas pipes are ordinary and pumping gas seems to them not ordinary.

We hope not but there may come a time when major LPG outlets don't refill vehicles or Safefill bottles but still do supply bottles and bulk gas to home heating customers. Trust me I hope not probably more than anyone else here because I am in the business of converting vehicles to run on LPG and have already seen a big drop in the numbers of people converting to LPH since MFG took over Morrisons and increased the price.

 

[Mzracer]

I just wanted to say what an interesting thread this is. I have learned things technically and also about people.

Well done to the main protagonists on both sides of the argument.

 

[Reallyretired]

Shouldn't that be tanks, rather than cylinders? Those donut shaped tanks aren't cylinders, nor are the Stako underslung chassis mounted tanks.

Cheers,

Jock.

Most underslung tanks I have seen are cylinders ie they are cylindrical in shape.

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