Safefill no longer allowed to be refilled at Morrisons

[BikerGraham]

Graham,,not that i need to but ,,,,i used to transfere diesel from one boat to another using a recomended pump.Would one such pump do the same for LPG ?? and are they also ATEX rated ??

The diesel pump may not be ATEX. There would be markings on it to indicate this if it was.
The filling system at a garage forecourt are, as they are also next to petrol so it’s one of those areas where its easier. Plus as it’s a pressurised system then any leak could release a flammable mist. Also depends on the delivery rate of the dispensing system. As it is faster and riskier.
EI15 from the Energy Institute, last update October 24 covers this. As does BSEN 60079-10-1 from 2020. Both updated based on a research document undertaken with industry and the HSE.

There are also U.K. Liquid Gas standards for reference also.

If you are using a hand pump then the pressure is very low and not expected to release a flammable mist even from a leak. But also as you are present you would stop immediately.

However, In relation to LPG then is should be ATEX. Even manual hand pumps are available.

Your diesel tank is atmospheric generally, although some system may be under very slight vacuum or pressure depending on its design. LPG cylinder / tank is around 15barg depending on temperature. That’s a lot of pressure.

As any leak would release a flammable vapour cloud and the amount of energy required to ignite it is very low. Less than 1mJ.

So in short with LPG I wouldn’t use a non-rated pump.

Hope this helps. If need be pm me and we can have a chat.

 

[thenomad]

Or any gas cylinders according to the notice
So us Gaslow users will be stuffed by the lo

You would think so however if it’s policy and only for engine use it’s not going to be hard for a memo to say the obvious that most campers motorhomes are diesel and therefore cannot run on LPG

The simple answer is fit filling point in the side of the motorhome next to the gas locker and DO NOT OPEN THE LOCKER how are they to know. As far as they are to know it is an on board tank which is part of the vehicle. It just means that you will have to take your motor home to the petrol station instead of the bottle in the car. Which is what they're afraid of people carrying gas cylinders in the back of their car.

 

[Barryh]

This morning we stopped at a little Repsol in Portugal for some diesel. It’s one of those with a bar/cafe inside and the locals lounge around outside for a chat but there’s no seating area. There was several chaps chatting, drinking coffee and having a good smoke, whilst using the gas bottle cage as an ersatz table and within a few yards of a petrol, diesel and LPG pumps.

 

[gpat]

Shouldn't that be tanks, rather than cylinders? Those donut shaped tanks aren't cylinders, nor are the Stako underslung chassis mounted tanks.

Cheers,

Jock.

I've yet to see any vessel that contains a liquified gas that is not a cylinder.

'tank' is a genetic term. Tanks that contain liquified gases will always be cylinders won't they?

 

[Lpgc]

I've yet to see any vessel that contains a liquified gas that is not a cylinder.

'tank' is a genetic term. Tanks that contain liquified gases will always be cylinders won't they?

There are many toroidal shaped LPG tanks fitted on vehicles, these are commonly known as 'spare wheel tanks' because they're usually fitted in the position where the spare wheel would normally go.

But you're kind of right in a way, you'd be unlikely to see a tank that has any right angles, the thing about the toroidal shape is it's like a cylinder that has itself been curved around to meet itself to complete a full circle in a polo mint kind of shape... except a lot of these toroidal tanks also carry gas in the middle of the circle.

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[Ian_H]

The diesel pump may not be ATEX. There would be markings on it to indicate this if it was.
The filling system at a garage forecourt are, as they are also next to petrol so it’s one of those areas where its easier. Plus as it’s a pressurised system then any leak could release a flammable mist. Also depends on the delivery rate of the dispensing system. As it is faster and riskier.
EI15 from the Energy Institute, last update October 24 covers this. As does BSEN 60079-10-1 from 2020. Both updated based on a research document undertaken with industry and the HSE.

There are also U.K. Liquid Gas standards for reference also.

If you are using a hand pump then the pressure is very low and not expected to release a flammable mist even from a leak. But also as you are present you would stop immediately.

However, In relation to LPG then is should be ATEX. Even manual hand pumps are available.

Your diesel tank is atmospheric generally, although some system may be under very slight vacuum or pressure depending on its design. LPG cylinder / tank is around 15barg depending on temperature. That’s a lot of pressure.

As any leak would release a flammable vapour cloud and the amount of energy required to ignite it is very low. Less than 1mJ.

So in short with LPG I wouldn’t use a non-rated pump.

Hope this helps. If need be pm me and we can have a chat.

Hi Graham
You appear to have taken this as a serious question. Maybe I'm wrong but I assumed he had to be taking the p1ss......

 

[BikerGraham]

Hi Graham
You appear to have taken this as a serious question. Maybe I'm wrong but I assumed he had to be taking the p1ss......

You may be correct. I didn’t think that. But maybe that is my fault.

It’s hard to tell on this thread.

P.s. I do know that the HSE are prosecuting a company for supplying equipment that should have been ATEX certified and was not yet it had the UKCA plate on. The reason I know is that I was asked to do the safety assessment. Which was sent to the HSE.

 

[gpat]

There are many toroidal shaped LPG tanks fitted on vehicles, these are commonly known as 'spare wheel tanks' because they're usually fitted in the position where the spare wheel would normally go.

But you're kind of right in a way, you'd be unlikely to see a tank that has any right angles, the thing about the toroidal shape is it's like a cylinder that has itself been curved around to meet itself to complete a full circle in a polo mint kind of shape... except a lot of these toroidal tanks also carry gas in the middle of the circle.

Good point.

The point I was making was that if any cylindrical tank was excluded from being filled it would exclude the tanks that the LPG is stored on the forecourt.

I had never heard of the term toroidal. I have now.

 

[triky]

Yes, no problem. Was it like this one?
View attachment 1120240

NO,.,,not a hand pump,mine was a 12v pump.When i return to my storage ,i will get the details & confirm the type .

 

[Googlebot]

Well, Birmingham and the surrounding areas are full of LPG pumps.

I will be okay for a bit.

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[Ian_H]

NO,.,,not a hand pump,mine was a 12v pump.When i return to my storage ,i will get the details & confirm the type .

Don't bother. Really. It will not be designed for 15+bar or be suitable in any way. You could try selling it to Gary-June.

 

[BikerGraham]

I don’t know why but this incident popped into my head in relation to something dodgy being done time and time again and getting away with it.
Until they don’t get away with it and tragedy struck.

At one time to save operational turn around time the roll on roll off ferries used to start leaving the port of Zeebrugge with their bow doors open. As long as they had them closed before passing the breakwater then they got away with it. Although it was a dangerous procedure.

Well one day in April 1987 they got the timings wrong, the reasons aren’t that important for this post, on the Herald of Free Enterprise and 188 poor soles lost their lives.

When doing something that is fundamentally unsafe, the difference between “getting away with it” and disaster is often down to extremely small factors whether it be timings or maybe, it’s making a seal correctly on a joint or even securely fastening an electrical connection.

Anyway not really related to this. Or is it

 

[Minxy]

Shouldn't that be tanks, rather than cylinders? Those donut shaped tanks aren't cylinders, nor are the Stako underslung chassis mounted tanks.

Cheers,

Jock.

Don't mention donuts ... you'll have Northernraider drooling!

 

[Googlebot]

I don’t know why but this incident popped into my head in relation to something dodgy being done time and time again and getting away with it.
Until they don’t get away with it and tragedy struck.

At one time to save operational turn around time the roll on roll off ferries used to start leaving the port of Zeebrugge with their bow doors open. As long as they had them closed before passing the breakwater then they got away with it. Although it was a dangerous procedure.

Well one day in April 1987 they got the timings wrong, the reasons aren’t that important for this post, on the Herald of Free Enterprise and 188 poor soles lost their lives.

When doing something that is fundamentally unsafe, the difference between “getting away with it” and disaster is often down to extremely small factors whether it be timings or maybe, it’s making a seal correctly on a joint or even securely fastening an electrical connection.

Anyway not really related to this. Or is it

It’s absolutely related, disaster causation is a well studied topic.

https://thedecisionlab.com/reference-guide/management/swiss-cheese-model

If the non return valve freezes open then so what? Add in a pump that isn’t intrinsically safe which causes ignition of the escaped vapour and boom. One won’t happen without the other which is why layered safety works.

Even the bottle being upside down and unstable as in the picture above, if it falls over and pulls the hoses causing a rupture, needs a stand and strapping to secure it against falling.

Even a basic risk assessment would tell you that setup will eventually kill someone, but hey ho.

The Herald of Free Enterprise was a great example of disaster being caused by multiple small failures.

 

[Basildog]

It’s absolutely related, disaster causation is a well studied topic.

https://thedecisionlab.com/reference-guide/management/swiss-cheese-model

If the non return valve freezes open then so what? Add in a pump that isn’t intrinsically safe which causes ignition of the escaped vapour and boom. One won’t happen without the other which is why layered safety works.

Even the bottle being upside down and unstable as in the picture above, if it falls over and pulls the hoses causing a rupture, needs a stand and strapping to secure it against falling.

Even a basic risk assessment would tell you that setup will eventually kill someone, but hey ho.

The Herald of Free Enterprise was a great example of disaster being caused by multiple small failures.

We get them all the time telling us how they have been doing something for 30 years and never had a problem. ⚠

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[Mzracer]

I don’t know why but this incident popped into my head in relation to something dodgy being done time and time again and getting away with it.
Until they don’t get away with it and tragedy struck.

At one time to save operational turn around time the roll on roll off ferries used to start leaving the port of Zeebrugge with their bow doors open. As long as they had them closed before passing the breakwater then they got away with it. Although it was a dangerous procedure.

Well one day in April 1987 they got the timings wrong, the reasons aren’t that important for this post, on the Herald of Free Enterprise and 188 poor soles lost their lives.

When doing something that is fundamentally unsafe, the difference between “getting away with it” and disaster is often down to extremely small factors whether it be timings or maybe, it’s making a seal correctly on a joint or even securely fastening an electrical connection.

Anyway not really related to this. Or is it

Very good analogy

 

[Mzracer]

It’s absolutely related, disaster causation is a well studied topic.

https://thedecisionlab.com/reference-guide/management/swiss-cheese-model

If the non return valve freezes open then so what? Add in a pump that isn’t intrinsically safe which causes ignition of the escaped vapour and boom. One won’t happen without the other which is why layered safety works.

Even the bottle being upside down and unstable as in the picture above, if it falls over and pulls the hoses causing a rupture, needs a stand and strapping to secure it against falling.

Even a basic risk assessment would tell you that setup will eventually kill someone, but hey ho.

The Herald of Free Enterprise was a great example of disaster being caused by multiple small failures.

I remember travelling on car ferries in 1986 and noticing the crew hammering the clam catches shut on the bow doors when leaving Dover, in those days it was not a requirement to leave the car deck upon sailing, in fact I often went back down to sleep in the car.

The Herald of Free Enterprise accident was horrible, much like the LPG refilling will be when it goes wrong which is fairly likely IMO.

 

[Howard B]

We get them all the time telling us how they have been doing something for 30 years and never had a problem. ⚠

I know the feeling, I used to get it all the time in my role as a H&S Manager.

 

[Garry - June]

Don't bother. Really. It will not be designed for 15+bar or be suitable in any way. You could try selling it to Gary-June.

No dont bother...because I'm more than happy to keep using it...but thanks all the same.

 

[Garry - June]

I don’t know why but this incident popped into my head in relation to something dodgy being done time and time again and getting away with it.
Until they don’t get away with it and tragedy struck.

At one time to save operational turn around time the roll on roll off ferries used to start leaving the port of Zeebrugge with their bow doors open. As long as they had them closed before passing the breakwater then they got away with it. Although it was a dangerous procedure.

Well one day in April 1987 they got the timings wrong, the reasons aren’t that important for this post, on the Herald of Free Enterprise and 188 poor soles lost their lives.

When doing something that is fundamentally unsafe, the difference between “getting away with it” and disaster is often down to extremely small factors whether it be timings or maybe, it’s making a seal correctly on a joint or even securely fastening an electrical connection.

Anyway not really related to this. Or is it

Wow...some really bizarre analogies being bandied around on this thread to try and justify someone's point of view... personally my favourite was the one going back to 1966...

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[Markman]

Wow...some really bizarre analogies being bandied around on this thread to try and justify someone's point of view... personally my favourite was the one going back to 1966...

I made it and it wasn't an analogy but an example where a valve had frozen open, leading to disaster. The industry learned from that incident and the learnings are embedded in the best practise processes and procedures described by Basildog and the HSE (Health and Safety Executive, created as part of the 1974 Health and Safety at Work Act) documents such as L138, the ACOP (approved code of practise) for DSEAR (Dangerous Substances and Explosive Atmosphere Regulations), etc, etc. Unfortunately the HSE significantly reduced its budget for ACOPs about 10 years ago, leaving it to industry to continue the process, leading to this: one, which I suggest you download and read if you wnat to understand the best practise for LPG in your motorhome:

https://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/media/3503/lg-uk-code-of-practice-32-lpg-systems-in-leisure-accommodation-vehicles-and-road-vehicles-with-habitation-post-delivery-inspection-commissioning-and-maintenance.pdf

 

[Markman]

Graham,,not that i need to but ,,,,i used to transfere diesel from one boat to another using a recomended pump.Would one such pump do the same for LPG ?? and are they also ATEX rated ??

The flash point (the temperature at which a fuel can continue to burn) for diesel is 60deg C, so if you got a spill and a puddle of diesel and threw a match in to it, it would fizzle out. So leaks of diesel liquid are safe (from a flammable point of view - detail: and as long as they don't form a mist). The flash point for petrol is -23C and LPG far lower still, so any leak can burn if ignited e.g. by a spark from a pump.

The ATEX rating from a pump includes the requirement that it will ot create sparks when it fails (e.g. bearings fail and rotor spins, touching the casing with metal on metal creating sparks).

 

[Gellyneck]

Aren’t they mostly tanker supplied fixed tank?
Or is it a Scottish thing?

Both are in existence. There are areas within Scotland where cylinders are delivered by smaller vehicles as it's unsafe / impossible for tanker access.

 

[Googlebot]

Wow...some really bizarre analogies being bandied around on this thread to try and justify someone's point of view... personally my favourite was the one going back to 1966...

You are absolutely entitled to use things that could kill you.

There are however lots you could do to make the kit much safer. You have already identified moving the power source further away and extending the cables.

I would also be putting the bottle in a stand that can’t fall over along with making sure the hoses are secured in some way to the pump so can’t be pulled out accidentally mid transfer.

In fact, I would make the power cables very long and switch on from a distance. Along with making sure nobody was within 400m of the vehicle.

That’s a basic risk assessment from looking at the photo, I have no doubt it would be worse if I looked at the kit. You do have to say if all that is necessary to not die, you probably shouldn’t be using it.

It’s easy to take opposing views and I applaud your tenacity in defending the indefensible, but that kit is fine, until it isn’t.

 

[oilrag]

I have just bitten the bullet and purchased an LPG transfer pump system off Ebay...expensive yes.... but I now have to take a one hour detour to our nearest LPG supplier otherwise if I want to fill up my onboard Gaslow cylinders .... I used it for the first time yesterday ready for our trip to Lincoln, transferring LPG from a 47kg Calor which I pay £75 a go for... absolute simplicity and worked perfectly... no more stress about where Im getting LPG from.

There are two lpg sellers, one at Brownhills Motorhomes Newark A1 junction to A 46, the other at South Scarle on the Collingham road, so Lincoln is well served, Just use the fill lpg app /my lpg. EU and a bit of planning.

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[Pausim]

Wow...some really bizarre analogies being bandied around on this thread to try and justify someone's point of view... personally my favourite was the one going back to 1966...

Which goes to show that despite 59 years of evidence some people still think they know better. People who think they know better have got us banned from Morrisons forecourts and put other peoples lives at risk (as well as their own). We all end up paying for this in our insurance premiums and public service costs so I don’t think of this as victim less individual stupidity.

 

[Mzracer]

Which goes to show that despite 59 years of evidence some people still think they know better. People who think they know better have got us banned from Morrisons forecourts and put other peoples lives at risk (as well as their own). We all end up paying for this in our insurance premiums and public service costs so I don’t think of this as victim less individual stupidity.

I doubt those people at the Morrisons fire thought they knew better, more likely a case of ignorance is bliss!!

 

[Garry - June]

You are absolutely entitled to use things that could kill you.

There are however lots you could do to make the kit much safer. You have already identified moving the power source further away and extending the cables.

I would also be putting the bottle in a stand that can’t fall over along with making sure the hoses are secured in some way to the pump so can’t be pulled out accidentally mid transfer.

In fact, I would make the power cables very long and switch on from a distance. Along with making sure nobody was within 400m of the vehicle.

That’s a basic risk assessment from looking at the photo, I have no doubt it would be worse if I looked at the kit. You do have to say if all that is necessary to not die, you probably shouldn’t be using it.

It’s easy to take opposing views and I applaud your tenacity in defending the indefensible, but that kit is fine, until it isn’t.

Yep all pretty common sense... but then I'm not so frightened to death of touching anything related to gas... I mean it sounds to me a lot on here must be petrified of using a gas BBQ and obviously wont touch anything on their vans unless its done by someone with a safety certificate behind their name.... its really not rocket science.. I understand all those with a vested interest attempting to protect their livelihoods so they will obviously continue to preach doom and gloom to anyone who should even dare to look at a gas appliance without their say so.
But come on... hysterical or what...a 1966 refinery accident,,, Herald of Free Enterprise.... I'm just surprised nobody has yet mentioned the Space Shuttle disaster or maybe even Chernobyl.. Its gas... its not nuclear physics. and then to be called an idiot by some who are no more qualified than I am..

 

[B+W vanman]

Yep all pretty common sense... but then I'm not so frightened to death of touching anything related to gas... I mean it sounds to me a lot on here must be petrified of using a gas BBQ and obviously wont touch anything on their vans unless its done by someone with a safety certificate behind their name.... its really not rocket science.. I understand all those with a vested interest attempting to protect their livelihoods so they will obviously continue to preach doom and gloom to anyone who should even dare to look at a gas appliance without their say so.
But come on... hysterical or what...a 1966 refinery accident,,, Herald of Free Enterprise.... I'm just surprised nobody has yet mentioned the Space Shuttle disaster or maybe even Chernobyl.. Its gas... its not nuclear physics. and then to be called an idiot by some who are no more qualified than I am..

How qualified are you, if you don’t mind me asking?

 

[Garry - June]

The diesel pump may not be ATEX. There would be markings on it to indicate this if it was.
The filling system at a garage forecourt are, as they are also next to petrol so it’s one of those areas where its easier. Plus as it’s a pressurised system then any leak could release a flammable mist. Also depends on the delivery rate of the dispensing system. As it is faster and riskier.
EI15 from the Energy Institute, last update October 24 covers this. As does BSEN 60079-10-1 from 2020. Both updated based on a research document undertaken with industry and the HSE.

There are also U.K. Liquid Gas standards for reference also.

If you are using a hand pump then the pressure is very low and not expected to release a flammable mist even from a leak. But also as you are present you would stop immediately.

However, In relation to LPG then is should be ATEX. Even manual hand pumps are available.

Your diesel tank is atmospheric generally, although some system may be under very slight vacuum or pressure depending on its design. LPG cylinder / tank is around 15barg depending on temperature. That’s a lot of pressure.

As any leak would release a flammable vapour cloud and the amount of energy required to ignite it is very low. Less than 1mJ.

So in short with LPG I wouldn’t use a non-rated pump.

Hope this helps. If need be pm me and we can have a chat.

I find it quite interesting you talk of forecourt pumps and their ratings and delivery rates...
Its one other very noticeable thing about the LPG transfer kit I've bought/am using.... all of us have used forecourt pumps and I'm sure when removing the delivery nozzle from our van bayonet fill point have experienced quite a large amount of gas escape when doing so... sometimes it can be quite an alarming amount.... now presumably this is a direct result of the delivery rate and pressure of a forecourt pump ..which again is understandable as garages dont want vehicles sat at their pumps forever and a day waiting to gas to transfer at a slower rate..
The kit I am now using naturally runs at a far far lower rate which is evident in the steady amount of time taken for the transfer to complete and also very noticeably hardly any gas escape at all when disconnecting the system.... so if anything I find this actually safer and more reassuring than using a forecourt pump..

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