Safefill no longer allowed to be refilled at Morrisons

[The Old Man]

Decided to TOFT.

Just driven into Morrisons, Cardiff Bay, where I normally buy my LPG.

Parked alongside the pump as normal, but I didn't need LPG I wanted five litres of Unleaded for my generator.

The LPG pump was on and ready to pump, so I looked at for a while then went to the pump next to it for my five litres . Went to pay and then asked the assistant what the LPG rules were;

No cylinders, no exceptions, now deemed a fire hazard!

I was fine as he knew I was a regular and had an external filler, so LPG at anytime.

 

[gus-lopez]

I always assumed that diesel/lpg hybrids didn't exist. Apparently I was wrong, you can adapt a diesel engine to use lpg, though it runs on a mixture, not lpg alone. I'm not quite sure what the point is, but it can be done.

Yes Iveco trucks use hybrids plus they also have standalone lpg & natural gas 44 tonne artics

why on earth would you think that... no more dangerous than using a forecourt fill point...as long as you have a modicum of common sense of course..

It's frightening.

To put it bluntly there are many of us waiting for a fatality in the leisure industry, unfortunately it will then depend on whether it’s a peasant thats killed or somebody with connections.
The unfortunate fact is that we have a reactive safety culture rather than a proactive one , it would have been so simple to set up a registration system for refillable systems when they originally came to the market , sadly a missed opportunity

Never understood why stuff that is illegal to use is able to be legally sold?

Also the Gaslow connection hose is mentioned but just because something is sold doesn’t mean it’s right.

Ahh I see so Gaslow are now selling dangerous equipment now as well then..

As above you can buy tracker detectors perfectly legally just totally illegal to use them.
You can buy vehicle a/c refill cylinders just totally illegal to use them unless you hold a refrigeration licence
The list of stuff legal to sell/buy but illegal to use is long

 

[vzac]

What is the difference between a tank and a cylinder. They both are metal vessels holding gas just a different shape. We have gas low, and get peed when we can only fill tanks, the cylinder is a tank, has the same function.

 

[Brains]

Seriously I did not realise that this kind of thing was going on.

I was thinking of getting a gaslow system again ( had 2 in the past) but I would say that the days are numbered for refilling LPG from when someone gets killed doing this dodgy stuff.

I have a GasLow system, and I'd buy another.
I'd just ensure it has a standard external fuel filler point.

You will still be able to get LPG in the UK for the foreseeable future, it may just be less from the big chain fuel stations, and more from campsites, yacht marinas, builders merchants and the like.

As long as you have a double bottle system and when one is empty you start to look to fill before the other gets empty, there is no need to make a special 20 mile journey to fill up.

 

[B+W vanman]

I have a GasLow system, and I'd buy another.
I'd just ensure it has a standard external fuel filler point.

You will still be able to get LPG in the UK for the foreseeable future, it may just be less from the big chain fuel stations, and more from campsites, yacht marinas, builders merchants and the like.

As long as you have a double bottle system and when one is empty you start to look to fill before the other gets empty, there is no need to make a special 20 mile journey to fill up.

Seems likely it will only be; campsites, marinas, lpg depots, if you’re lucky!
The numbers of lpg-fuelled vehicles in the UK have reduced dramatically

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[lunarman]

Refilled my gaslow (external filler point in side skirt) at Morrisons Cribbs Causeway (jcn17 M5) this morning no problems.

 

[Brains]

Seems likely it will only be; campsites, marinas, lpg depots, if you’re lucky!
The numbers of lpg-fuelled vehicles in the UK have reduced dramatically

If there is a need and people can sell it at a profit, then LPG will remain available.

The suppliers will move from the big chain fuel stations to smaller more specialist suppliers such as Campsites, builders merchants, and Yacht Marinas.

But I'd expect privately owned conventional fuel station on main routes to continue to sell it as long as the demand is there.

 

[Bucket]

I've just refilled at Morrisons Cribbs Causeway (that's close to the M4/M5 interchange if you don't know it).
Both my self and the Motorhome in front have external fillers.
No issues or comments. 99.9p

FYI, the pump is in a central position so it's a little tight getting out. we're 7mtrs.
FYI2, Only one side of the LPG pump is working, you have to go to the right.

 

[B+W vanman]

If there is a need and people can sell it at a profit, then LPG will remain available.

The suppliers will move from the big chain fuel stations to smaller more specialist suppliers such as Campsites, builders merchants, and Yacht Marinas.

But I'd expect privately owned conventional fuel station on main routes to continue to sell it as long as the demand is there.

Well, I think that’s the point, supply and demand.
The UK is down to 70,000 lpg fuelled vehicles in 2024, down from over 200,000 a few years ago
The numbers are continuing to fall, I believe, getting to the point where it will not be economically viable for fuel stations to provide it.
A few motorhomes doesn’t make for significant demand, I’m afraid

 

[Bucket]

True, and if like me you are just topping up an 11 ltr Gaslow it's hardly worth the retailers time taking our money....

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[hja]

Just thinking supply and demand. Other than caravans and motorhomes who uses calor? How great is the demand for it? I suppose there are still calor heaters in use. Just sort of comparing it to lpg demand.

 

[B+W vanman]

Just thinking supply and demand. Other than caravans and motorhomes who uses calor? How great is the demand for it? I suppose there are still calor heaters in use. Just sort of comparing it to lpg demand.

By “calor” I guess you mean bottled leisure gas?
Until I fell into the rabbit-hole of motorhome ownership then I suppose I was a standard suburban barbecue, blow-lamp (diy) and weed-lance user
I used bottled butane or propane bought from B&Q, B&M, Camperlands and some local garages
They supplied various brands; Calor, Camping-gaz, Flogas, etc
Think bottled gas is also widely used in mobile-homes, forklift trucks, yachts and canal-boats besides those things you mentioned

 

[Gellyneck]

Think bottled gas is also widely used in mobile-homes, forklift trucks, yachts and canal-boats besides those things you mentioned

and residencies not on a main gas network.

 

[B+W vanman]

and residencies not on a main gas network.

Aren’t they mostly tanker supplied fixed tank?
Or is it a Scottish thing?

 

[BikerGraham]

By “calor” I guess you mean bottled leisure gas?
Until I fell into the rabbit-hole of motorhome ownership then I suppose I was a standard suburban barbecue, blow-lamp (diy) and weed-lance user
I used bottled butane or propane bought from B&Q, B&M, Camperlands and some local garages
They supplied various brands; Calor, Camping-gaz, Flogas, etc
Think bottled gas is also widely used in mobile-homes, forklift trucks, yachts and canal-boats besides those things you mentioned

I see a lot of propane cylinders on clients sites I visit. Many for forklift trucks but also for welding purposes. Oxy/propane replacing oxy/ acetylene as it’s relatively less hazardous. Also many propane “burner” torches for shrink wrapping. Admittedly usually large cylinder sizes but still a high demand for them.

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[BikerGraham]

Aren’t they mostly tanker supplied fixed tank?
Or is it a Scottish thing?

Still many fixed tanks on factory sites and some remote homes. I come across them often.

 

[triky]

Wow

tosh you say.

Good god ignorance of some people is mind blowing.

By the way. 5m away would not be far enough if you have a leak at that pressure. The pump is not ATEX rated. I know that for a fact as if it was the price would have another 0 on the end of it for the kit. At least.

Do not presume, that because you think you know what you are doing, then the rest of us do not.

DSEAR, ATEX etc is what I do for a living. Look it up.

Graham,,not that i need to but ,,,,i used to transfere diesel from one boat to another using a recomended pump.Would one such pump do the same for LPG ?? and are they also ATEX rated ??

 

[Lpgc]

I haven't been on this forum for a couple of years, last time I was here I was asking about towbar strength when I was considering buying a coachbuilt motorhome, it would need a strong towbar to pull my heavy boat.

I convert vehicles to run on LPG for a living. I also work on vehicle air conditioning systems.

I've converted thousands of vehicles to run on LPG / dual fuel. But don't worry (moderators etc) because I'm not trying to advertise or sell anything here... But I might be able to help clear up a few things and maybe a few misunderstandings. I have some insights into why LPG is disappearing from forecourts, which is of course bad for people who run LPG converted vehicles and bad for motorhome / caravan users who refill tanks / bottles at LPG forecourts. I will list some of my insights...

First of all nobody can say how many vehicles run on LPG in the UK but anyone official (like a government minister) who asks for a figure is likely to be told a much smaller figure than the real figure. If 'anyone official' was/is in a position to help promote LPG they probably won't think it still worthwhile if figures suggest nobody is using it. In theory any vehicle converted to run on LPG (the engine) should have the logbook updated to reflect that (the owner should fill in the change of fuel type section of the V5 and return it along with proof of professional conversion to DVLA) but only a small minority of vehicles that can run on LPG have it listed as a fuel type on the logbook. The reason why only a minority of LPG converted vehicles have LPG as a fuel type on the logbook is at least in good part due to the trade body LiquidGas (the current trade body for suppliers such as Calor and Flogas, LiquidGas used to be called UKLPG and before that was called LPGA) trying to extend their scope (which is really about the supply of LPG) to include a 'safety' scheme for LPG converted vehicles. Bearing in mind LiquidGas is just a profit making trade body set up to look after the interests of suppliers, not an authority, not in control of any Standards, not a government department, it really should not have been involved in setting up a vehicle safety scheme but it did and it's interests in doing so were all about increasing their own profit. This trade body for gas supply companies set up a scheme which they wanted people/companies such as me who convert vehicles to run on LPG and our suppliers (of Autogas parts) to be members. They wanted us all to pay for membership of the scheme, and pay again every time we registered a vehicle on their scheme, and in attempt to make their scheme mandatory so we'd all have to join up and pay they tried to persuade insurance companies that they should only offer insurance for an LPG converted vehicle if the vehicle was 'approved' by their scheme. If you think about this for a moment, a trade body set up for Calor and Shell running a safety scheme for LPG converted vehicles is like having Shell or BP run the vehicle MOT scheme. Shell and BP have no business getting involved with the MOT scheme and a trade body involved with gas supply companies such as Calor and BP has no business getting involved with vehicle LPG conversions. Their LPG converted vehicle 'approval' was done by the same person that converted the vehicle in most cases, as long as that person was one of their members. The 'standard' (lower case 's' intentional) they came up with (their COP11 standard) was a ridiculously simple interpretation of the proper Standard (a British and European Standard) and mainly addressed the obvious such as don't run LPG pipes alongside a vehicle's exhaust pipe, very basic stuff that any mechanic should know anyway. It didn't address the real world potential safety problems of a converted vehicle that mostly boil down to the vehicle not running properly if the technical aspects of the engine conversion were not correct - If an engine stalls the driver can lose power assisted steering and lose brake servo assistance. A properly LPG converted vehicle should run exactly the same on LPG as it does on petrol but many installers including many who were trade body members did not get the technical aspects of the engine conversion correct... Most installers could fit a system that would be considered safe by the trade body because they got the simple nuts and bolts aspect correct and didn't run gas pipes alongside exhaust pipes, but only a minority of installers were very good at getting the engine to run properly on LPG. This trade body did not tell its members that they should advise vehicle owners that it was their legal obligation and responsibility to get LPG added to the fuel type section of the logbook and I believe they did not do so because they (the trade body) wanted to have the only records of LPG converted vehicles in the UK... They did not want insurance companies etc to look at official records such as the fuel type on logbooks and they they did not want the MOT to check aspects of the LPG system - DVLA asked my advice on whether or not the MOT should check aspects of an LPG converted vehicle, I said yes and the MOT scheme does now check aspects of the LPG system on a vehicle. In general people only took the trade body's scheme seriously for a few years and that was a couple of decades ago. Very soon after the scheme started, installers such as myself and also suppliers (and I mean all suppliers) decided we didn't want to be part of such a Mickey Mouse scheme. So the majority of LPG conversions of vehicles in the UK have never been registered on the trade body's list/database of LPG converted vehicles... and most LPG conversion companies didn't advise vehicle owners to have the fuel type changed on the logbook... So the majority of vehicles that run on LPG in the UK are not registered on either the trade body's database or DVLA's records, so anyone who asks either the trade body or DVLA how many vehicles run on LPG in the UK are going to be told a very under-estimated figure.

Secondly, in many ways the increase in the numbers of Safefill type bottles used by motorhomers and caravanners decreased profits of the trade body's main members (e.g. Calor and Flogas). A lot of their profit was from selling gas at very high prices per litre in small exchange bottles, they also made money because people had to pay a deposit for those bottles. But anyone with a Safefill type setup could refill an equivalent size small bottle at an LPG forecourt for the same price per litre or kg as someone using a lot of gas because their vehicle engine runs on it. If you were in Calor or Flogas management you might consider that instead of selling gas at low prices at forecourts you could be selling more gas at high prices in small bottles again, like you did before Safefill. And instead of losing your bottle deposit profits you could increase your bottle deposit profits... Do both at the same time by pulling the plug on LPG at forecourts. Especially if you also believe that not many vehicle engines run on LPG in the UK because your trade body figures say they don't.

Apparently most of the big suppliers (Calor / Flogas / etc) business is in selling gas and hiring equipment to home users, people who don't have a mains gas supply. They and their trade body have been in trouble with bodies such as the monopolies commision before for non-competitive monopoly like behaviour and it's easy to imagine the trade body acting as go-between for such companies. I and plenty other people I know have approached these big suppliers to enquire about setting up new forecourts / places that sell LPG but they always seem most unhelpful... They are not interested in just selling you the gas, they don't seem to want to sell you gas unless they also get you signed up to an expensive equipment hire deal. And even if they will sell you gas the price they would charge (even if you're buying it thousands of litres at a time) would make it more expensive to you than you could buy it at one of their still existing forecourts. I know a man who runs an LPG refuelling place, I won't say where but it is in a fairly remote end of the country, when he enquired how much Calor and Flogas would charge him for equipment and for the gas he was offered the usual bad deal. Instead of buying from these big companies he buys from a smaller independent bulk gas supplier in Wales which is hundreds of miles from him and it still works out a lot cheaper even with though the delivery tanker has to come from that far away. I can only imagine the big suppliers don't want forecourts selling LPG because it impacts on their bottled gas business.

My first and only post for now but I will be back shortly on this thread about something else...

 

[Ian_H]

Graham,,not that i need to but ,,,,i used to transfere diesel from one boat to another using a recomended pump.Would one such pump do the same for LPG ?? and are they also ATEX rated ??

Yes, no problem. Was it like this one?

 

[Ian_H]

I haven't been on this forum for a couple of years, last time I was here I was asking about towbar strength when I was considering buying a coachbuilt motorhome, it would need a strong towbar to pull my heavy boat.

I convert vehicles to run on LPG for a living. I also work on vehicle air conditioning systems.

I've converted thousands of vehicles to run on LPG / dual fuel. But don't worry (moderators etc) because I'm not trying to advertise or sell anything here... But I might be able to help clear up a few things and maybe a few misunderstandings. I have some insights into why LPG is disappearing from forecourts, which is of course bad for people who run LPG converted vehicles and bad for motorhome / caravan users who refill tanks / bottles at LPG forecourts. I will list some of my insights...

First of all nobody can say how many vehicles run on LPG in the UK but anyone official (like a government minister) who asks for a figure is likely to be told a much smaller figure than the real figure. If 'anyone official' was/is in a position to help promote LPG they probably won't think it still worthwhile if figures suggest nobody is using it. In theory any vehicle converted to run on LPG (the engine) should have the logbook updated to reflect that (the owner should fill in the change of fuel type section of the V5 and return it along with proof of professional conversion to DVLA) but only a small minority of vehicles that can run on LPG have it listed as a fuel type on the logbook. The reason why only a minority of LPG converted vehicles have LPG as a fuel type on the logbook is at least in good part due to the trade body LiquidGas (the current trade body for suppliers such as Calor and Flogas, LiquidGas used to be called UKLPG and before that was called LPGA) trying to extend their scope (which is really about the supply of LPG) to include a 'safety' scheme for LPG converted vehicles. Bearing in mind LiquidGas is just a profit making trade body set up to look after the interests of suppliers, not an authority, not in control of any Standards, not a government department, it really should not have been involved in setting up a vehicle safety scheme but it did and it's interests in doing so were all about increasing their own profit. This trade body for gas supply companies set up a scheme which they wanted people/companies such as me who convert vehicles to run on LPG and our suppliers (of Autogas parts) to be members. They wanted us all to pay for membership of the scheme, and pay again every time we registered a vehicle on their scheme, and in attempt to make their scheme mandatory so we'd all have to join up and pay they tried to persuade insurance companies that they should only offer insurance for an LPG converted vehicle if the vehicle was 'approved' by their scheme. Their LPG converted vehicle 'approval' was done by the same person that converted the vehicle in most cases, as long as that person was one of their members. The 'standard' (lower case 's' intentional) they came up with (their COP11 standard) was a ridiculously simple interpretation of the proper Standard (a British and European Standard) and mainly addressed the obvious such as don't run LPG pipes alongside a vehicle's exhaust pipe, very basic stuff that any mechanic should know anyway. It didn't address the real world potential safety problems of a converted vehicle that mostly boil down to the vehicle not running properly if the technical aspects of the engine conversion were not correct - If an engine stalls the driver can lose power assisted steering and lose brake servo assistance. A properly LPG converted vehicle should run exactly the same on LPG as it does on petrol but many installers including many who were trade body members did not get the technical aspects of the engine conversion correct... Most installers could fit a system that would be considered safe by the trade body because they got the simple nuts and bolts aspect correct and didn't run gas pipes alongside exhaust pipes, but only a minority of installers were very good at getting the engine to run properly on LPG. This trade body did not tell its members that they should advise vehicle owners that it was their legal obligation and responsibility to get LPG added to the fuel type section of the logbook and I believe they did not do so because they (the trade body) wanted to have the only records of LPG converted vehicles in the UK... They did not want insurance companies etc to look at official records such as the fuel type on logbooks and they they did not want the MOT to check aspects of the LPG system - DVLA asked my advice on whether or not the MOT should check aspects of an LPG converted vehicle, I said yes and the MOT scheme does now check aspects of the LPG system on a vehicle. In general people only took the trade body's scheme seriously for a few years and that was a couple of decades ago. Very soon after the scheme started, installers such as myself and also suppliers (and I mean all suppliers) decided we didn't want to be part of such a Mickey Mouse scheme. So the majority of LPG conversions of vehicles in the UK have never been registered on the trade body's list/database of LPG converted vehicles... and most LPG conversion companies didn't advise vehicle owners to have the fuel type changed on the logbook... So the majority of vehicles that run on LPG in the UK are not registered on either the trade body's database or DVLA's records, so anyone who asks either the trade body or DVLA how many vehicles run on LPG in the UK are going to be told a very under-estimated figure.

Secondly, in many ways the increase in the numbers of Safefill type bottles used by motorhomers and caravanners decreased profits of the trade body's main members (e.g. Calor and Flogas). A lot of their profit was from selling gas at very high prices per litre in small exchange bottles, they also made money because people had to pay a deposit for those bottles. But anyone with a Safefill type setup could refill an equivalent size small bottle at an LPG forecourt for the same price per litre or kg as someone using a lot of gas because their vehicle engine runs on it. If you were in Calor or Flogas management you might consider that instead of selling gas at low prices at forecourts you could be selling more gas at high prices in small bottles again, like you did before Safefill. And instead of losing your bottle deposit profits you could increase your bottle deposit profits... Do both at the same time by pulling the plug on LPG at forecourts. Especially if you also believe that not many vehicle engines run on LPG in the UK because your trade body figures say they don't.

My first and only post for now but I will be back shortly on this thread about something else...

Imteresting. And I can understand your frustration with the trade body.
But the first question that jumps out to me is why companies like yours didn't/don't tell your customers of their legal duty to inform dvla of the conversion?
I would also have thought that lpg forecourt sales figures would be a pretty good indication of number of vehicles running lpg.
I have no idea of the number of safefill cylinders in use and the amount of gas used by them, but I would have thought it is quite low, as the market must be mainly limited to retirees and those able to use their vans more than the average working family.

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[gpat]

Read it again......ALL cylinders, not just those two.

That would rule out LPG powered vehicles as they have cylinders.

 

[Lpgc]

Imteresting. And I can understand your frustration with the trade body.
But the first question that jumps out to me is why companies like yours didn't/don't tell your customers of their legal duty to inform dvla of the conversion?
I would also have thought that lpg forecourt sales figures would be a pretty good indication of number of vehicles running lpg.
I have no idea of the number of safefill cylinders in use and the amount of gas used by them, but I would have thought it is quite low, as the market must be mainly limited to retirees and those able to use their vans more than the average working family.

My company did and does inform customers that it is their legal obligation to inform DVLA of the change of fuel type... But sadly over the years most companies did not.

Yes I agree forecourt sales should help point to the number of vehicles that run on LPG. But only help point to the number (not be a direct indicator) because they don't know the ratio of forecourt gas sales that fuel engines versus filling bottles for campervans / caravans / anyone who uses LPG/propane for running tools / appliances / catering vehicle hobs / etc.

 

[Brains]

That would rule out LPG powered vehicles as they have cylinders.

It's a badly worded memo.
Probably written by someone with zero, or very little, actual understanding of the issue.

It's so badly written that it can be read several ways.

Given that several people have refiled GasLow systems with the external fill points since the memo came out, I think it's not those they are targeting.

Morrisons, before they sold their filling stations to MFG last year, had a long standing arrangement with SafeFill and FloGas to permit the filling of the external bottles from the pump.
It would appear this is what the memo is trying to stop.

I think we all would like the see the written Risk Assessment that has caused the volte face from the company.

I suspect the real issue are the 'cheat' devices sold for about £10 on ebay that permit the refilling of Calor and other non-refillable bottles, as I suspect that is what caused the fire at a MFG fuel station in Doncaster recently

 

[JockandRita]

That would rule out LPG powered vehicles as they have cylinders.

Shouldn't that be tanks, rather than cylinders? Those donut shaped tanks aren't cylinders, nor are the Stako underslung chassis mounted tanks.

Cheers,

Jock.

 

[Lpgc]

I had a quick read through this entire thread.

Some of the standards some supposedly well informed and respected people have said apply to some things actually don't apply to those things.

ATEX is about equipment that has to work in an environment that contains gas without causing the gas in that environment to explode. For example you wouldn't want a miner's lamp with an open flame, or with an external electrical switch that could cause a spark. But I doubt even the miner's lamp would need to be tested by ATEX. My boat engine works in an enclosed environment (the enclosed engine bay) and it runs on petrol that can give off vapours which could explode if a spark in the engine bay were to ignite it, but my boat engine isn't on any ATEX list either. The electric pump doesn't have to be on any ATEX list, it doesn't work in an environment that contains gas vapours any more than your car engine has to work in an environment that contains potentially explosive petrol vapours.


The pump has liquid gas flowing inside it and the car engine has liquid petrol flowing inside it, they don't work in an environment that contains those vapours, my boat engine is more likely to work in an environment that contains petrol vapours but it is covered by a different scheme not ATEX.

When we think of GasSafe we normally think about it being mandatory that only GasSafe approved people can fit us a new gas boiler in the house etc. It is a different ticket for campervans and caravans and it isn't mandatory.

But just like the trade body I mentioned above there are people and firms who would like you to think something they're involved with for a living is mandatory for your application. And would like you to get the impression they know far more about it than they actually do. Most of what the typical GasSafe guy does involves gas at only millibars of pressure, most of what I do involves gas at pressure measured in bars, there are 1000 millibars in 1 bar. Most systems I fit involve components that turn tank pressure/state/phase (liquid phase) that might be 10 bar on a hot day (10000 millibars) into vapour phase at somewhere between 0.9 and 2 bar, has the potential to cause frostbite and where 1 litre of gas leaked turns into 270 litres of vapour.

If someone walks along a causeway 5 yards from a petrol station forecourt whilst smoking a cigarette nobody bats an eyelid, there are lots of roadside forecourts with pumps 5 yards from the footpath. Yet hehe if you go to a big forecourt where someone could be on the forecourt but 30 yards from the nearest pump, then if that person is smoking a cigarette it's likely to provoke the staff to come out of the kiosk to tell that person to put the cig out and for others who are filling up with fuel right at the other end of the forecourt to start shouting at that person too. Even if they all filled with petrol at a forecourt 5 yards from a footpath with people walking past smoking fags without thinking anything about it earlier the same day. Some of it is about expectations, understanding, and what seems normal. Some people impart their own misunderstandings or fears of the unknown onto others and they're more likely to be believed by others if they're supposedly an expert in a related field. They may quote 'facts' that seem correct and seem to make sense, and those facts may apply to what they do, but they don't always apply to the subject that is being discussed.

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[VXman]

Ok so if I can’t refill my safe fill bottles I’ll get a underslung system fitted that will solely run my hob and boiler?

You just need a bottle that can be connected to an external fill point. You can do that with a Gaslow bottle. Not sure if they are available for the safe fill bottles?

If you just pull up at a lpg pump and don't open a gas cupboard door or take a bottle out then the garage has no idea whether it is a bottle or a underslung system.

 

[Lenny HB]

If you just pull up at a lpg pump and don't open a gas cupboard door or take a bottle out then the garage has no idea whether it is a bottle or a underslung system

Had that in. Portugal, a woman came running out shouting we don't fill bottles, I pointed at the filler and said it's a tank and she filled my bottles.

 

[BrochMike]

I convert vehicles to run on LPG for a living. I also work on vehicle air conditioning systems.

Do you happen to sell 12v pumps for LPG transfer on ebay as well?

Asking for a friend...

 

[Mzracer]

I haven't been on this forum for a couple of years, last time I was here I was asking about towbar strength when I was considering buying a coachbuilt motorhome, it would need a strong towbar to pull my heavy boat.

I convert vehicles to run on LPG for a living. I also work on vehicle air conditioning systems.

I've converted thousands of vehicles to run on LPG / dual fuel. But don't worry (moderators etc) because I'm not trying to advertise or sell anything here... But I might be able to help clear up a few things and maybe a few misunderstandings. I have some insights into why LPG is disappearing from forecourts, which is of course bad for people who run LPG converted vehicles and bad for motorhome / caravan users who refill tanks / bottles at LPG forecourts. I will list some of my insights...

First of all nobody can say how many vehicles run on LPG in the UK but anyone official (like a government minister) who asks for a figure is likely to be told a much smaller figure than the real figure. If 'anyone official' was/is in a position to help promote LPG they probably won't think it still worthwhile if figures suggest nobody is using it. In theory any vehicle converted to run on LPG (the engine) should have the logbook updated to reflect that (the owner should fill in the change of fuel type section of the V5 and return it along with proof of professional conversion to DVLA) but only a small minority of vehicles that can run on LPG have it listed as a fuel type on the logbook. The reason why only a minority of LPG converted vehicles have LPG as a fuel type on the logbook is at least in good part due to the trade body LiquidGas (the current trade body for suppliers such as Calor and Flogas, LiquidGas used to be called UKLPG and before that was called LPGA) trying to extend their scope (which is really about the supply of LPG) to include a 'safety' scheme for LPG converted vehicles. Bearing in mind LiquidGas is just a profit making trade body set up to look after the interests of suppliers, not an authority, not in control of any Standards, not a government department, it really should not have been involved in setting up a vehicle safety scheme but it did and it's interests in doing so were all about increasing their own profit. This trade body for gas supply companies set up a scheme which they wanted people/companies such as me who convert vehicles to run on LPG and our suppliers (of Autogas parts) to be members. They wanted us all to pay for membership of the scheme, and pay again every time we registered a vehicle on their scheme, and in attempt to make their scheme mandatory so we'd all have to join up and pay they tried to persuade insurance companies that they should only offer insurance for an LPG converted vehicle if the vehicle was 'approved' by their scheme. If you think about this for a moment, a trade body set up for Calor and Shell running a safety scheme for LPG converted vehicles is like having Shell or BP run the vehicle MOT scheme. Shell and BP have no business getting involved with the MOT scheme and a trade body involved with gas supply companies such as Calor and BP has no business getting involved with vehicle LPG conversions. Their LPG converted vehicle 'approval' was done by the same person that converted the vehicle in most cases, as long as that person was one of their members. The 'standard' (lower case 's' intentional) they came up with (their COP11 standard) was a ridiculously simple interpretation of the proper Standard (a British and European Standard) and mainly addressed the obvious such as don't run LPG pipes alongside a vehicle's exhaust pipe, very basic stuff that any mechanic should know anyway. It didn't address the real world potential safety problems of a converted vehicle that mostly boil down to the vehicle not running properly if the technical aspects of the engine conversion were not correct - If an engine stalls the driver can lose power assisted steering and lose brake servo assistance. A properly LPG converted vehicle should run exactly the same on LPG as it does on petrol but many installers including many who were trade body members did not get the technical aspects of the engine conversion correct... Most installers could fit a system that would be considered safe by the trade body because they got the simple nuts and bolts aspect correct and didn't run gas pipes alongside exhaust pipes, but only a minority of installers were very good at getting the engine to run properly on LPG. This trade body did not tell its members that they should advise vehicle owners that it was their legal obligation and responsibility to get LPG added to the fuel type section of the logbook and I believe they did not do so because they (the trade body) wanted to have the only records of LPG converted vehicles in the UK... They did not want insurance companies etc to look at official records such as the fuel type on logbooks and they they did not want the MOT to check aspects of the LPG system - DVLA asked my advice on whether or not the MOT should check aspects of an LPG converted vehicle, I said yes and the MOT scheme does now check aspects of the LPG system on a vehicle. In general people only took the trade body's scheme seriously for a few years and that was a couple of decades ago. Very soon after the scheme started, installers such as myself and also suppliers (and I mean all suppliers) decided we didn't want to be part of such a Mickey Mouse scheme. So the majority of LPG conversions of vehicles in the UK have never been registered on the trade body's list/database of LPG converted vehicles... and most LPG conversion companies didn't advise vehicle owners to have the fuel type changed on the logbook... So the majority of vehicles that run on LPG in the UK are not registered on either the trade body's database or DVLA's records, so anyone who asks either the trade body or DVLA how many vehicles run on LPG in the UK are going to be told a very under-estimated figure.

Secondly, in many ways the increase in the numbers of Safefill type bottles used by motorhomers and caravanners decreased profits of the trade body's main members (e.g. Calor and Flogas). A lot of their profit was from selling gas at very high prices per litre in small exchange bottles, they also made money because people had to pay a deposit for those bottles. But anyone with a Safefill type setup could refill an equivalent size small bottle at an LPG forecourt for the same price per litre or kg as someone using a lot of gas because their vehicle engine runs on it. If you were in Calor or Flogas management you might consider that instead of selling gas at low prices at forecourts you could be selling more gas at high prices in small bottles again, like you did before Safefill. And instead of losing your bottle deposit profits you could increase your bottle deposit profits... Do both at the same time by pulling the plug on LPG at forecourts. Especially if you also believe that not many vehicle engines run on LPG in the UK because your trade body figures say they don't.

Apparently most of the big suppliers (Calor / Flogas / etc) business is in selling gas and hiring equipment to home users, people who don't have a mains gas supply. They and their trade body have been in trouble with bodies such as the monopolies commision before for non-competitive monopoly like behaviour and it's easy to imagine the trade body acting as go-between for such companies. I and plenty other people I know have approached these big suppliers to enquire about setting up new forecourts / places that sell LPG but they always seem most unhelpful... They are not interested in just selling you the gas, they don't seem to want to sell you gas unless they also get you signed up to an expensive equipment hire deal. And even if they will sell you gas the price they would charge (even if you're buying it thousands of litres at a time) would make it more expensive to you than you could buy it at one of their still existing forecourts. I know a man who runs an LPG refuelling place, I won't say where but it is in a fairly remote end of the country, when he enquired how much Calor and Flogas would charge him for equipment and for the gas he was offered the usual bad deal. Instead of buying from these big companies he buys from a smaller independent bulk gas supplier in Wales which is hundreds of miles from him and it still works out a lot cheaper even with though the delivery tanker has to come from that far away. I can only imagine the big suppliers don't want forecourts selling LPG because it impacts on their bottled gas business.

My first and only post for now but I will be back shortly on this thread about something else...

Very informative, thanks.

 

[barryd]

One things for sure they are looking thinner on the ground to me. Im arriving back in the UK on Sunday morning at Dover. Thankfully there is an LPG station at Dover on my route but between there and Yeovil via Chichester where I am heading on Sunday there are not that many and none without a diversion.

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