Safefill no longer allowed to be refilled at Morrisons

Reallyretired said:
Most underslung tanks I have seen are cylinders ie they are cylindrical in shape.
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One might say that although they are cylindrical, they are actually tanks. Do you see road going cylinders delivering fuel from the refinery to the filling stations, or to Bulk Fuel Installations? No, that's because they are bulk fuel tankers, and the cylindrical shaped vessel underneath our old Hymer, was in fact a bulk gas tank................not a cylinder.

Cheers,

Jock. ;)
 
JockandRita said:
One might say that although they are cylindrical, they are actually tanks. Do you see road going cylinders delivering fuel from the refinery to the filling stations, or to Bulk Fuel Installations? No, that's because they are bulk fuel tankers, and the cylindrical shaped vessel underneath our old Hymer, was in fact a bulk gas tank................not a cylinder.

Cheers,

Jock. ;)
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The LPG conversion industry calls the cylinders cylinder tanks, toroidal shaped tanks toroidal tanks., trapezoidal shaped tanks trapezoidal tanks and vertical toroidal tanks. Any of those can be single or 4 hole (valve/s design).

The 4 hole design has a separate port built into the tank for each of: gas inlet (with its own float to shut off incoming gas when the level reaches 80%), combined pressure relief valve and thermal fuse, fuel level float (with its own float, which may just be fitted with an on-tank gauge or an electronic level sender), gas outlet (which on an autogas setup is electronic solenoid controlled or on a forklift or vapour tank setup is usually a tap fitting).

4 Hole designs (except vertical toroidal) can be liquid or vapour take off by design of the tank itself (liquid take off has built in metal liquid pipe leading to the output port. 4 hole vertical toroidal are always liquid output). Vapour 4 hole tanks don't have the liquid pick up pipe built in. A 4 hole liquid take off tank is easily modified to be a vapour take off tank by removing the outlet valve and drilling a hole sideways through the internal metal pickup pipe. 4 Hole liquid take off tanks are usually designed so the valves should be at 30 degrees down from vertical, vapour 4 hole cylinder tanks are usually 110degree valve fitment tanks. Single hole tanks have a 70mm hole for a single 'mulitvalve' to mount to, the multivalve combines all of the functions of the 4 x 4hole tank valves plus have a liquid pick-up tube if it is an autogas spec valve (or might not have the pickup tube, or might have an upward pickup tube if it's designed for vapour take-off). Toroidal single hole tanks can be 30 degree internal valve (the 'middle of the polo mint design is empty but this is where the valve attaches), these are designed to be fitted internally and all the pipes go out through the middle through a vehicle's boot floor below the spare wheel well. They can be zero degree but not full toroidal, the valve mounts horizontally to the low outer edge of the tank but the centre of the tank is empty like a polo mint. They can be zero degree full toroidal, same as a polo mint design except the centre is not empty and carries gas. They can be vertical toroidal, the boss for the valve to attach to is in a similar position in the empty middle bit of the polo mint design but the boss is welded to the tank at a different angle to allow a special 'vertical toroidal' design multivalve to be fitted, the special design vertical toroidal multivalve has a different float design and a long liquid pickup tube, the level gauge on this design works backwards (anti-clockwise) so if an electronic sender is fitted it too must work backwards.

The Trapezoidal design is very rare and was only really used on Classic Rangerovers.

The trade doesn't call a tank a bulk tank unless it is big, like as big as the white or green tanks people have in their gardens that a gas truck comes to fill up instead of the house gas supply running off 47kg red bottles, so really a minimum of around 500 litres. I have fitted several 220 litre cylinder tanks on some American RV's and I don't even call those bulk tanks.

I am the only installer who has offered a tank that has both liquid (to feed the engine) and vapour (to feed a regulator to fuel appliances) take-offs. I start with a liquid tank and make my own vapour output port.
 
barryd said:
Sunday morning at Dover. Thankfully there is an LPG station at Dover on my route but between there and Yeovil via Chichester where I am heading on Sunday
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BP at Golden Cross on A22 slight diversion, at Patcham A27/A23 junction, Morrisons at Littlehampton (pump not in cash desk view), Land Cruise near Chichester.
 
Garry - June said:
Yep all pretty common sense... but then I'm not so frightened to death of touching anything related to gas... I mean it sounds to me a lot on here must be petrified of using a gas BBQ and obviously wont touch anything on their vans unless its done by someone with a safety certificate behind their name.... its really not rocket science.. I understand all those with a vested interest attempting to protect their livelihoods so they will obviously continue to preach doom and gloom to anyone who should even dare to look at a gas appliance without their say so.
But come on... hysterical or what...a 1966 refinery accident,,, Herald of Free Enterprise.... I'm just surprised nobody has yet mentioned the Space Shuttle disaster or maybe even Chernobyl.. Its gas... its not nuclear physics. and then to be called an idiot by some who are no more qualified than I am..
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I'm semi-retired after 35 years in Oil&Gas including as the responsible manager, identifying and working through the large number of improvements implemented in refineries and tank farms post Buncefield (and advising on the aftermath of the deaths of 5 workers in Pembroke refinery . . . who had been doing the same thing for 30 years, cleaning tanks on the refinery, until they stopped. They don't care, but their grieving families do!) So no "vested interest attempting to protect their livelihoods" just wanting to avoid you killing yourself, and others. It is really painful to watch.

I agree LPG is just a gas but a special gas because it is heavier than air and, under Buncefield-type conditions (stable air and wind speeds <2m/s) a leak will travel for many metres as a combustible cloud (flammable limits 2-12% in air) until it finds an ignition source. Then the "interesting" bit is whether there is enough congestion to change the deflagration to a detonation.

So there are people in this thread tying, but failing, to convince you of the risks you are taking with the happiness of your nearest and dearest who actually ARE "more qualified than" [you are].

If you are bored then have a look at the short video here. Note LPG is typically 95% propane:
www.newscientist.com

Impossible explosion: The Buncefield blast explained

Could trees and bushes have been to blame for the force of one of Europe's biggest peacetime explosions? Violent experiments may now have solved this enigma
www.newscientist.com www.newscientist.com

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Lpgc said:
Not to worry, I nearly included to say I could understand you thinking it was me who'd posted what you did respond to. No problem, It's easily done when there's a few people posting on a thread.

What I meant was people would find they'd have a problem with 3rd party liability if something went wrong with quite a few things they probably don't think twice about doing. I really don't know about pumping gas or topping the lawn mower up with petrol. But even if there is a clause in house insurance that says we're not covered to pump gas or top up the lawn mower it wouldn't make me think twice about doing it because the risks involved in both are small. Nobody (else) should jump on the fact I said risk, there is a risk in doing anything. But it does seem it's been brought up here because there are a few that don't like the idea of a pump even if they haven't thought of anything specific that might make it dangerous. Granted people aren't used to the idea of a pump, or having gas bottles sideways or upside down and granted gas can be dangerous... But there are other granteds such as people are generally more afraid of gas than they are of other fuels and this makes them apprehensive if there's any mention of doing something that seems out of the ordinary with it. People say "I do my own gas pipes etc and I'm not scared of it" but gas pipes are ordinary and pumping gas seems to them not ordinary.

We hope not but there may come a time when major LPG outlets don't refill vehicles or Safefill bottles but still do supply bottles and bulk gas to home heating customers. Trust me I hope not probably more than anyone else here because I am in the business of converting vehicles to run on LPG and have already seen a big drop in the numbers of people converting to LPH since MFG took over Morrisons and increased the price.
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Noted and pleased to see we agree on the process being discussed does, potentially, have 3rd party liability issues.(y)

Whether an individual choses to use this process is up to them but they now have an understanding of the potential danger / issue.(y)
 
Lpgc said:
Yes I do confirm that it is me that sells the pumps and I have always intended to say so.
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If it was me I would stop selling these pumps and be buying back all the ones I have already sold. It may not be illegal to sell them but I don’t think this stops the personal liability that would arise if someone had a serious accident with one. I know I am not qualified to issue anything other than my personal opinion which is what I am doing. However, with so many expert opinions about the safety risks of using such contraptions I would be worrying myself to death about the personal and financial risks.

I understand your wish to provide an alternative source of supply with a diminishing number of forecourt providers but it seems to me the risks outweigh any possible advantage.
 
Pausim said:
If it was me I would stop selling these pumps and be buying back all the ones I have already sold. It may not be illegal to sell them but I don’t think this stops the personal liability that would arise if someone had a serious accident with one. I know I am not qualified to issue anything other than my personal opinion which is what I am doing. However, with so many expert opinions about the safety risks of using such contraptions I would be worrying myself to death about the personal and financial risks.

I understand your wish to provide an alternative source of supply with a diminishing number of forecourt providers but it seems to me the risks outweigh any possible advantage.
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That is plainly ridiculous there are transfer pumps sold for all sorts of fuels...should they also be withdrawn...
Its like an argument nobody should be allowed to sell crossbows or Archery equipment online... potentially lethal in the wrong hands but would legal action be taken or even justified if someone was killed...
Bottom line is there is absolutely nothing illegal in these kits and there is absolutely nothing illegal about installing maintaining your own gas equipment on your vans...despite what some professionals would have you believe..
Just to put some of your concerned minds at ease... I am fully competent and physically able to use the equipment in a safe manner and also in a safe environment... I live in an isolated property with no neighbours... Oh and yes for those asking my wife is confident in my abilities and very happy with me doing so.. and not living in mortal fear
 
B+W vanman said:
Under which exclusion clause would a life insurance policy refuse benefits?
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High risk and potentially not to standards that are out lined by the retailer of said equipment, “gas” bottles being used to transfer liquid I’m sure would not come under the conditions of the hire agreement with the supplying gas company.
Check your own policy if you intend to use or go by any of the practices outlined on this thread.

You think insurance companies will just payout without and investigation in today’s blame culture, good luck
 
hja said:
Just thinking supply and demand. Other than caravans and motorhomes who uses calor? How great is the demand for it? I suppose there are still calor heaters in use. Just sort of comparing it to lpg demand.
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Me - about 8000 litres of it every year to heat my house.
 
1967bowesj said:
But, would it pay out given what potentially was happening should anything nasty happen?
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Why oh why are so many concerned about what I'm doing...I'm not.. I honestly don't care one iota what anybody else thinks... I'll keep using it, you keep searching and fretting about where you can fill your tanks.. ;)
 
Garry - June said:
Why oh why are so many concerned about what I'm doing...I'm not.. I honestly don't care one iota what anybody else thinks... I'll keep using it, you keep searching and fretting about where you can fill your tanks.. ;)
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I think you will find they don’t care one iota what you do or if you have a nasty self inflicted accident, what they do care about is your lack of thought on an open forum to promote said act that other people may then think is safe, and then have a potentially harmful accident.
Surprised that Jim hasn’t closed the thread given the risks.
 
We visited BC Motorhomes at Prestwick today to top up our gas as they have installed a new LPG outlet and whilst there we had a lovely chat with the owner and his staff. The site is just a short drive off the main A79 so easy to get to, the entrance is on the right of the road opposite a little layby, note however that, the hose is only 3 meters long so you need to ensure that your filler is on the left otherwise it won't reach. As they were having an open weekend there were a lot more vehicles on display than usual but we managed to get close enough to fill up once hubby turned the MH round (plenty of space in the yard to do so).

Getting the LPG was 'interesting' as it had to be done staff as it had a 'manual' lever pump, not the usual quick electric one, so MH owners can't 'self-serve', we were 'honoured' to be the first purchasers of the LPG and the boss, John, worked the pump whilst everyone looked on ... it took a lot of pumping to fill one of our near empty 11kg cylinder (other was still full) so if he's the one who keeps doing it he's gonna end up with one arm like Popeye! :LOL: At 95p a litres it's a good price and he needs as much throughput for the LPG as he can get as he needs to reach 25,000 litres in 9 months to get an electric pump installed to save his, and his staff arms so if you're round there and need LPG pop in and get some (check opening times).

Contact Us at BC Motorhomes

www.bcmotorhomes.co.uk www.bcmotorhomes.co.uk

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Garry - June said:
Why oh why are so many concerned about what I'm doing...I'm not.. I honestly don't care one iota what anybody else thinks... I'll keep using it, you keep searching and fretting about where you can fill your tanks.. ;)
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Actually, I do care a bit, it’s absolutely your prerogative to maim and injure yourself as you wish.

If you do go boom though, some poor person has to tell your nearest and dearest who will no doubt be devastated at your passing. That’s actually a pretty crappy thing to have to do, though not as crappy as your relatives will find it.

That’s if the boom only affects you, which may or may not be the case.

Most people when advised something is bad by people with better knowledge listen, I think people are just surprised at your bravado, which given the topic and consequences, does seem a bit misplaced.

Each to their own though.
 
Brains said:
4 tonnes of LPG per year to heat your "house"!

I'd suggest that you reduce the the temperature in the servants wing by a degree or two
and convert some of the greenhouses to run on biodegradables.
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That is going some, we use about 1.3 tonnes (18000KWh)
 
Lenny HB said:
BP at Golden Cross on A22 slight diversion, at Patcham A27/A23 junction, Morrisons at Littlehampton (pump not in cash desk view), Land Cruise near Chichester.
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And Podimore Roundabout near Yeovil

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Garry - June said:
That is plainly ridiculous there are transfer pumps sold for all sorts of fuels...should they also be withdrawn...
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All sorts of other fuels are not necessarily stored at 125psi and do not expand by 270 times their original volume if the pressure fails. What you and I see as ridiculous are obviously very different. I think that equating propane with fuels that are stored at normal atmospheric pressure and do not suddenly expand when they leak is plainly ridiculous.
 
Garry - June said:
That is plainly ridiculous there are transfer pumps sold for all sorts of fuels...should they also be withdrawn...
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Not at the pressure the LPG is transferred at! :rolleyes:

Garry - June said:
Its like an argument nobody should be allowed to sell crossbows or Archery equipment online... potentially lethal in the wrong hands but would legal action be taken or even justified if someone was killed...
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That it such a silly comparison I can't help but :LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL:

Garry - June said:
Bottom line is there is absolutely nothing illegal in these kits and there is absolutely nothing illegal about installing maintaining your own gas equipment on your vans...despite what some professionals would have you believe..
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Just because something isn't illegal doesn't mean it's safe, it's one thing to do something yourself such as putting in your own gas kit as the likelihood is that even a numpty would soon realise when it was leaking and sort it, or get help, but it is quite another thing to actually produce, promote and sell this sort of pump to people to use who 'believe' it is safe without any knowledge or experience of the danger of LPG and how to safely deal with it.

Garry - June said:
Just to put some of your concerned minds at ease... I am fully competent and physically able to use the equipment in a safe manner
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Er, I beg to differ looking at the photo you posted! :oops:

Garry - June said:
and also in a safe environment... I live in an isolated property with no neighbours...
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So if it went boom you'd be the only 'crispy critter' ... that's one plus point not that I want it to happen to you of course but at least you wouldn't take anyone else with you.

Garry - June said:
Oh and yes for those asking my wife is confident in my abilities and very happy with me doing so.. and not living in mortal fear
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Sometimes 'love' is blind! :cool:
 
I see Garry - June has taken to laughing at posts that question the advisability of using the equipment he uses. Would you buy kit from a person who laughs at any concerns you might raise? I certainly wouldn’t but then again I think that transferring heavily compressed liquid gas is not the same as pumping stable liquids.
 
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Pausim said:
I see Garry - June has taken to laughing at posts that question the advisability of using the equipment he uses and sells. Would you buy kit from a person who laughs at any concerns you might raise? I certainly wouldn’t but then again I think that transferring heavily compressed liquid gas is not the same as pumping stable liquids.
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Was he selling the pumps, I thought that was someone else.
 

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