New thread for new approach. Full upgrade.

[PeteMallorca]

Any advice is welcome, I am very new to this and am learning by reading.

Sorry for the long post but I want to give as much information as possible.

I have made some upgrades to the existing system:

I replaced the old PWM controler with:
A Victron MPPT 150 l 60 Tr (with upgrading in mind).

I have added:
A Victron Smart Battery Sense.
A Victron SmartShunt 1000A.
A Victron Cerbo GX.

I have the original 3 x 100AH Gell batteries, a split charge relay and a large fuse.

I have 2 (Missmatched) x 100w solar panels on the roof.

I have a 3000w inverter.

2 of the batteries are under the front seat. The third battery is under a seat in the lounge area, behing the front seat. The inverter us also under this lounge seat.

The controler is in the wardrobe, with the house fuse box, the shore power battery charger and the shore power trip fuse. About 2.5m to 3m away from the lounge seat.

The Smart Battery Sense and the Smart Shunt are showing 12.02v but when I put the multimeter on the Controller "Battery" connections, that is reading 13.3v.

The solar Watts have been low and the battery voltage has not gone above 12v very often (on the Victron displays). I'm too far from any AC, to plug in and give the batteries a good charge.

Earlier I was concerned that the battery voltage was too low, so I started the engine.

It seemed that the controler liked that and all of a sudden, the solar Watts came up and it was charging the batteries.

When I turned the engine off, it went back to normal, with low solar Watts and little charging, although the batteries have more volts.

I'm thinking that there is a cable problem. I could understand the controler reading less volts but reading more is very confusing.

So..... My idea is: to move everything to the garage. Where the house fuse box and the controler are now, is the other side of the garage wall, so no problem of lengthening cables.

With everything re positioned and new cables run, I want to add 600AH of lifepo4 batteries and 800w to 1000w of solar panels.

I live in the camper, full time, in Mallorca, Spain. We get a lot of sun and I think that this set up will give me enough power, to run the basics and some luxuries.

I will not be using shore power very often but I want to add this as part of the system. Obviously I will have to consider a B2B also, maybe 2 x Orion Tr Smart 12/12 30A.

I was looking at the Victron Multiplus - || 12/3000/120-32 but I'm not sure that I need that much. It does seem to keep everything in the same box and obviously it's a reliable make. And then I can sell my inverter.

I would have to do the repower in stages, so as to not be without power of any kind.

So...... I was thinking, that I should find a reasonable source for 600AH of batteries. Fit them in the garage and prepare the space for the equipment

Them transfer the new Victron equipment and the inverter into the garage and connect to the house fuse box's.

Then re locate the house fuse box's.

Then run a new cable from the alternator and put the split charger with the batteries.

Then save to buy any extra equipment needed and the new solar panels.

The only cables longer than 1m will be the solar panel cables, that are already the other side of the wall and the new cable from the alternator, from the front to the back of the campervan.

What opinions have you guys and girls got? And please be gentle.!!!

 

[Cush]

I wish I had the knowledge to help you. I’m sure someone with the wisdom will be along. It might be worth taking it one question at a time. Good luck,
Cush

 

[PeteMallorca]

Thanks Cush, Im sure that we will both learn a lot on this forum .

I was a bit concerned about the length of the post but with so many things involved, I wanted to make everything as clear as possible.

There are some very knowledgeable people on here and as you say they will probably be along soon and explain things for this newbie .

 

[Minxy]

Calling Lenny HB busby and anyone else you two think can help.

 

[Cush]

I think your shunt / monitor may need to be recalibrated. A battery at 13+ volts sounds like it’s in float and won’t draw many solar watts. Starting the engine will be sending a charge to it too. Perhaps the shunt monitor doesn’t have the solar connected in the right place for it to detect the amps it puts in?

just my thoughts have ing had a ponder. Will be interested to see what the real solution is.

cush

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[Lenny HB]

What you are planning sounds OK but do make sure your cables to the batteries and inverters are of suitable size especially with everything at the rear of the van. Aim for less than 3% volt drop on the 12v cables.

Although you will be fitting plenty of solar a B2B is well worth having for those rainy days but I wouldn't use a Victron one of the few products they make that don't seem up to scratch. Have a look at the Votronic range of B2B's.

If you are hardly ever going to use EHU (shore power) no point in wasting money on a Multiplus, their main advantage is to top up the mains power on low current hook ups.

Link to cable size calculator.

Cable Size Calculator - Cable sizing and selection | 12 Volt Planet

Cable Size Calculator - Read our guide to selecting cable of the correct type and size for your automotive, marine or leisure wiring application. Auto and Marine Electrical Components from 12 Volt Planet

www.12voltplanet.co.uk

Your current problem may be down to one or more of your Gels having failed, I don't know how much power you take out of your inverter but with 300 ah of Gels you should keep to under 750 watts if you want the batteries to last.

As long as your panels are both the same type i.e. 12v panels with an open circuit voltage of around 22v they should be OK.
What you need to do separate the batteries then get each one charged up fully then do a discharge test on them, that will give you an idea on the state of your batteries. You need to separate the batteries as if one is failing it will drag the others down.

How to do a discharge test.:-

First charge the battery fully and leave it to settle for an hour, don't forget Gels need an absorption phase of 4 to 8 hours to fully charge:-

For example if it's a 100a/h battery load it with a 5 amp load and run for 5 hours, this will represent a 25% discharge. (adjust load/time to suit the size of the battery)
Disconnect the load and leave to stand for at least 30 min then measure the voltage.
Repeat the test and you will have discharged the battery to 50%.
You can repeat again then it will be 75% discharged.

 

[PeteMallorca]

I think your shunt / monitor may need to be recalibrated. A battery at 13+ volts sounds like it’s in float and won’t draw many solar watts. Starting the engine will be sending a charge to it too. Perhaps the shunt monitor doesn’t have the solar connected in the right place for it to detect the amps it puts in?

just my thoughts have ing had a ponder. Will be interested to see what the real solution is.

cush

Thanks Cush. I'll put together a schematic if the existing wirring and see what you think.

 

[busby]

Calling Lenny HB busby and anyone else you two think can help.

Quite flattered you think I can help with electrics but sadly not,Lenny is your man..BUSBY..

 

[PeteMallorca]

What you are planning sounds OK but do make sure your cables to the batteries and inverters are of suitable size especially with everything at the rear of the van. Aim for less than 3% volt drop on the 12v cables.

Although you will be fitting plenty of solar a B2B is well worth having for those rainy days but I wouldn't use a Victron one of the few products they make that don't seem up to scratch. Have a look at the Votronic range of B2B's.

If you are hardly ever going to use EHU (shore power) no point in wasting money on a Multiplus, their main advantage is to top up the mains power on low current hook ups.

Link to cable size calculator.

Cable Size Calculator - Cable sizing and selection | 12 Volt Planet

Cable Size Calculator - Read our guide to selecting cable of the correct type and size for your automotive, marine or leisure wiring application. Auto and Marine Electrical Components from 12 Volt Planet

www.12voltplanet.co.uk

Your current problem may be down to one or more of your Gels having failed, I don't know how much power you take out of your inverter but with 300 ah of Gels you should keep to under 750 watts if you want the batteries to last.

As long as your panels are both the same type i.e. 12v panels with an open circuit voltage of around 22v they should be OK.
What you need to do separate the batteries then get each one charged up fully then do a discharge test on them, that will give you an idea on the state of your batteries. You need to separate the batteries as if one is failing it will drag the others down.

How to do a discharge test.:-

First charge the battery fully and leave it to settle for an hour, don't forget Gels need an absorption phase of 4 to 8 hours to fully charge:-

For example if it's a 100a/h battery load it with a 5 amp load and run for 5 hours, this will represent a 25% discharge. (adjust load/time to suit the size of the battery)
Disconnect the load and leave to stand for at least 30 min then measure the voltage.
Repeat the test and you will have discharged the battery to 50%.
You can repeat again then it will be 75% discharged.

View attachment 647165

Thank you Lenny,

I appreciate your time

If you look at the 2 drawings, the existing setup has the batteries and the inverter, at the front and everything else at the back. If I move everything to the back, will that not give me shorter cable lengths? As far as I can see, the only cable that will be longer is the charge cable from the split charge relay.

I'll look at those B2B's that you mentioned. That's a shame about the Victrons not being that good, I'm impressed how all of the equipment connects together and is all visible in one place, on line also. What would be a good Amperage for the B2B? My alternator puts out 150A.

If there is no point having a Multiplus, Will I have to change the charger that's connected to the shore power, when I change to lifep04?

You have a good point there... I was told that 2 of the gell batteries were replaced recently (within 3 months). So maybe the 3rd is pulling the others down. The 2 new ones are under the front seat, so maybe I can disconnect the 3rd battery and see if the other 2 charge better?

I haven't used hardly anything with the inverter. I've used it to run a fan, for a couple of hours but the inverter cut off. This is when I started the engine and that helped everything. I have used it for the odd 2 minute use on the microwave but that's all. The inverter is always off, until I want to use the fan or the microwave.

I would like to use a lot more but I know it will just keep bleeping and cut off.

From the controler readings, the voltage coming from the panels when producing watts, is between 14v and 18v.

My problem is that I live in the camper and to remove all of the batteries isn't possible but I can try to remove the one that isn't new and see if it improves.

This was my reason for upgrading the controller first and then adding the new shunt and battery sense and Cerbo GX, so that I can see what's happening and try to get help with it.

I think that I should move everything to the back, now. That way I can check that all of the connections are correct and firm.
Then add the new panels.
Then add the new batteries. The logic being that, I want everything else to be working well first, so as not to undercharged the batteries and damage them.

Do you agree?

Thank you again, for you help.

 

[Lenny HB]

I'll look at those B2B's that you mentioned. That's a shame about the Victrons not being that good, I'm impressed how all of the equipment connects together and is all visible in one place, on line also. What would be a good Amperage for the B2B? My alternator puts out 150A.

The better Votronic B2B's have a switchable output so you can choose the output e.g. 30/45/60 amps their biggest one is 90 amps. If you had the 60 amp you could run it at 30 or 45 amps for the Gels then change it to 60 for the lithium.
The B2B would need heavy cables with the batteries at the rear.

If there is no point having a Multiplus, Will I have to change the charger that's connected to the shore power, when I change to lifep04?

The Gel setting will charge most Lithiums OK but the long absorption phase is not ideal but if you are only using EHU occasionally it should be OK. Victron IP22 range of chargers are quite cheap if you decide to change the charger.

You have a good point there... I was told that 2 of the gell batteries were replaced recently (within 3 months). So maybe the 3rd is pulling the others down. The 2 new ones are under the front seat, so maybe I can disconnect the 3rd battery and see if the other 2 charge better?

Good idea .

I would like to use a lot more but I know it will just keep bleeping and cut off.

It's tripping out due to low voltage, either because one or more of your batteries has had it or the 12v cables are too small.

From the controler readings, the voltage coming from the panels when producing watts, is between 14v and 18v.

With the panels disconnected from the controller in bright sun it should be approx 22 v when connected the output of the controler should rise to approx 14.4v then drop to a float of 13.8v.

his was my reason for upgrading the controller first and then adding the new shunt and battery sense and Cerbo GX, so that I can see what's happening and try to get help with it.

If you are living in the van full time I don't see the need for the Cerbo GX it's main advantage is remote monitoring via the web.

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[PeteMallorca]

The better Votronic B2B's have a switchable output so you can choose the output e.g. 30/45/60 amps their biggest one is 90 amps. If you had the 60 amp you could run it at 30 or 45 amps for the Gels then change it to 60 for the lithium.
The B2B would need heavy cables with the batteries at the rear.

The Gel setting will charge most Lithiums OK but the long absorption phase is not ideal but if you are only using EHU occasionally it should be OK. Victron IP22 range of chargers are quite cheap if you decide to change the charger.

Good idea .

It's tripping out due to low voltage, either because one or more of your batteries has had it or the 12v cables are too small.

With the panels disconnected from the controller in bright sun it should be approx 22 v when connected the output of the controler should rise to approx 14.4v then drop to a float of 13.8v.

If you are living in the van full time I don't see the need for the Cerbo GX it's main advantage is remote monitoring via the web.

Thanks Lenny, you certainly know your stuff.

I'll try disconnecting the 3rd battery and report the results.

The cables from the battery to the inverter are huge. I'll get a photo tomorrow.

I'll check the panel voltage tomorrow. I don't think that I've ever seen that voltage from the panels.

The Victron IP22 seem to be restricted to 30A. Would I be better with the Victron Phoenix Smart IP43, 12/50 (1+1), 12 V, 50 A. Thinking that this would also make sure that the engine battery is topped up and the 50A would be better for the lifepo4 batteries.

I went with the Cerbo GX because it displays everything together and it records history. It seems to connect everything together and is great for monitoring. Also, you never know. When I've sorted this out, maybe I could afford a holiday and I can monitor the system from the beach .

 

[Lenny HB]

The Victron IP22 seem to be restricted to 30A. Would I be better with the Victron Phoenix Smart IP43, 12/50 (1+1), 12 V, 50 A. Thinking that this would also make sure that the engine battery is topped up and the 50A would be better for the lifepo4 batteries.

I just quoted the one I knew about and thinking if you only occassionaly use EHU no point in wasting money.

I went with the Cerbo GX because it displays everything together and it records history. It seems to connect everything together and is great for monitoring. Also, you never know. When I've sorted this out, maybe I could afford a holiday and I can monitor the system from the beach .

 

[PeteMallorca]

I just quoted the one I knew about and thinking if you only occassionaly use EHU no point in wasting money.

Thank you Lenny. I'll update tomorrow with the results from the tests.

Regarding batteries... what do you think? 3 x 200AH or 2 x 309AH... I'm thinking 3 x 200AH. I know it will probably be more initial outlay but if one fails, I still have 400AH. How do you look at this situation?

 

[PeteMallorca]

I just got back to the camper and the batteries were very low, even though there gas been good sun all day. The controller was reading 12.11v battery and 25W of solar, on bulk.

 

[PeteMallorca]

I just got back to the camper and the batteries were very low, even though there gas been good sun all day. The controller was reading 12.11v battery and 25W of solar, on bulk.

The system was showing 11.8 v.

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[PeteMallorca]

So I started the engine and everything changed. Why has the solar W increased so much.m when it wasn't there for a low battery voltage?

 

[PeteMallorca]

Here is the difference between yesterday and today. The sun cover was the same, the temp is a bit lower today but today tge engine is running.

 

[PeteMallorca]

I have just turned the engine off and these are the, just before and just after readings.

 

[Billy192]

Any advice is welcome, I am very new to this and am learning by reading.

Sorry for the long post but I want to give as much information as possible.

I have made some upgrades to the existing system:

I replaced the old PWM controler with:
A Victron MPPT 150 l 60 Tr (with upgrading in mind).

I have added:
A Victron Smart Battery Sense.
A Victron SmartShunt 1000A.
A Victron Cerbo GX.

I have the original 3 x 100AH Gell batteries, a split charge relay and a large fuse.

I have 2 (Missmatched) x 100w solar panels on the roof.

I have a 3000w inverter.

2 of the batteries are under the front seat. The third battery is under a seat in the lounge area, behing the front seat. The inverter us also under this lounge seat.

The controler is in the wardrobe, with the house fuse box, the shore power battery charger and the shore power trip fuse. About 2.5m to 3m away from the lounge seat.

The Smart Battery Sense and the Smart Shunt are showing 12.02v but when I put the multimeter on the Controller "Battery" connections, that is reading 13.3v.

The solar Watts have been low and the battery voltage has not gone above 12v very often (on the Victron displays). I'm too far from any AC, to plug in and give the batteries a good charge.

Earlier I was concerned that the battery voltage was too low, so I started the engine.

It seemed that the controler liked that and all of a sudden, the solar Watts came up and it was charging the batteries.

When I turned the engine off, it went back to normal, with low solar Watts and little charging, although the batteries have more volts.

I'm thinking that there is a cable problem. I could understand the controler reading less volts but reading more is very confusing.

So..... My idea is: to move everything to the garage. Where the house fuse box and the controler are now, is the other side of the garage wall, so no problem of lengthening cables.

With everything re positioned and new cables run, I want to add 600AH of lifepo4 batteries and 800w to 1000w of solar panels.

I live in the camper, full time, in Mallorca, Spain. We get a lot of sun and I think that this set up will give me enough power, to run the basics and some luxuries.

I will not be using shore power very often but I want to add this as part of the system. Obviously I will have to consider a B2B also, maybe 2 x Orion Tr Smart 12/12 30A.

I was looking at the Victron Multiplus - || 12/3000/120-32 but I'm not sure that I need that much. It does seem to keep everything in the same box and obviously it's a reliable make. And then I can sell my inverter.

I would have to do the repower in stages, so as to not be without power of any kind.

So...... I was thinking, that I should find a reasonable source for 600AH of batteries. Fit them in the garage and prepare the space for the equipment

Them transfer the new Victron equipment and the inverter into the garage and connect to the house fuse box's.

Then re locate the house fuse box's.

Then run a new cable from the alternator and put the split charger with the batteries.

Then save to buy any extra equipment needed and the new solar panels.

The only cables longer than 1m will be the solar panel cables, that are already the other side of the wall and the new cable from the alternator, from the front to the back of the campervan.

What opinions have you guys and girls got? And please be gentle.!!!

Hi Peter, i had a similar set up in my panel van. 300ah lithium and 660w solar 2x 330. Victron 100/50 solar control, Victron batt sense, Victron smart shunt, Victron 3000 inverter.only traveled around UK but never run out of 12v. i did not go for the alternator charging the leisure as i never needed it. the SOC was always around 80%. we have two e bike that i recharge via cig lighter socket. 800w toaster, 800 w kettle, microwave. plus 2 laptops and phones.

Billy

this was the batt i had.

 

[PeteMallorca]

Hi Peter, i had a similar set up in my panel van. 300ah lithium and 660w solar 2x 330. Victron 100/50 solar control, Victron batt sense, Victron smart shunt, Victron 3000 inverter.only traveled around UK but never run out of 12v. i did not go for the alternator charging the leisure as i never needed it. the SOC was always around 80%. we have two e bike that i recharge via cig lighter socket. 800w toaster, 800 w kettle, microwave. plus 2 laptops and phones.

Billy


View attachment 647393this was the batt i had.

Hi Billy. Thanks. I think that my aim will be enough but I'm restricted as to how I do the upgrade. Also, the technical side of things is still confusing me. I think that the set up I've got, is a real mess and this is my main reason o replace and reposition everything.

Fingers crossed that I can get the help I need and get this done.

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[Billy192]

Hi Billy. Thanks. I think that my aim will be enough but I'm restricted as to how I do the upgrade. Also, the technical side of things is still confusing me. I think that the set up I've got, is a real mess and this is my main reason o replace and reposition everything.

Fingers crossed that I can get the help I need and get this done.

happy to help via questions if i can

 

[PeteMallorca]

happy to help via questions if i can

Cheers !!!

 

[Minxy]

Quite flattered you think I can help with electrics but sadly not,Lenny is your man..BUSBY..

Doesn't hurt to make an old man feel important occasionally though does it!

 

[Lenny HB]

Thank you Lenny. I'll update tomorrow with the results from the tests.

Regarding batteries... what do you think? 3 x 200AH or 2 x 309AH... I'm thinking 3 x 200AH. I know it will probably be more initial outlay but if one fails, I still have 400AH. How do you look at this situation?

You need to check with the manufacturer some lithium can be fussy about parelleling them up, I think I would go with the 2 x 309 as you still have 300ah if one was to fail.

 

[Lenny HB]

I have just turned the engine off and these are the, just before and just after readings.

I think it's a battery problem although it could be the a solar controller fault my money is on the batteries.
The alternator running is just masking the problem.

I know you live in the van and 2 batteries are under a seat but you really must seperate the batteries and test each one.

You need to get on EHU then disconnect the solar controller and charge the batteries from the mains.

Do each battery seperately charge it for at least 24 hours. Voltage should rise to 14.4v then hold at 14.2 - 14.4 for several hours 4 to 16 hours depending on your charger, then drop to 13.6 - 13.8 v float charge.

Switch off the charger.
A Gel battery will hold at a higher voltage than a ordinary LA batteries without a load should hold up above 13v for a couple of days. Best to do a load test as I said eairler you can do it in circuit by turning stuff on or connect a bulb across the battery, a headlamp bulb draws about 8 amps.

If one or more batteries look OK reconnect them, when reconnecting the solar disconnect the panels from the controller then connect it to the batteries before reconnecting the panels, then reconnect the panels.
This is important as it sets the charging voltage.

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[almichie]

A very basic question, but I think the assumption is the wiring is correct in the van. At the moment, I don’t see that this has been checked?

 

[Raul]

You was looking at the shunt, not solar, I personally suspect your solar is no adequate to charge the batteries enough, and maybe a duff battery to. When you started the engine power went up but not from solar, from alternator. You are looking at the shunt. You need to have the means of estimating the solar harvest. You don’t, unless you make a upgrade to a victron solar and integrate it with cerbo.
Open a account on victron VRM and get yourself remote monitoring. You will have a year data to track.
Your solar it’s only doing 25w in bulk because never had the ability to reach absorb voltage: that could be not enough solar, a poor pwm controller wasting power, poor cabling from controller to batteries, etc.
As for batteries in parallel it’s not a problem. Each has its own bms, in parallel lithium can go unlimited. It’s series that’s the restrictions, some to 4, some 2, some none.

 

[PeteMallorca]

You was looking at the shunt, not solar, I personally suspect your solar is no adequate to charge the batteries enough, and maybe a duff battery to. When you started the engine power went up but not from solar, from alternator. You are looking at the shunt. You need to have the means of estimating the solar harvest. You don’t, unless you make a upgrade to a victron solar and integrate it with cerbo.
Open a account on victron VRM and get yourself remote monitoring. You will have a year data to track.
Your solar it’s only doing 25w in bulk because never had the ability to reach absorb voltage: that could be not enough solar, a poor pwm controller wasting power, poor cabling from controller to batteries, etc.
As for batteries in parallel it’s not a problem. Each has its own bms, in parallel lithium can go unlimited. It’s series that’s the restrictions, some to 4, some 2, some none.

Hi Raul,

Thanks for that. The more that I'm getting into this system, the more things that I'm finding.

A complete, fresh start, seems to be the best way forwards. I have 3 x 200AH lifepo4 batteries arriving next week. I've sorted a few other items also and they should also be here next week. When I gave everything together, I'll update this thread and hopefully you guys can point me in the right direction.

The only thing I couldn't get shipped over here was panels. I'm guessing that 1000w should keep those batteries topped up. I plan to remove the roof AC, to give me space for bigger panels. I will then have a 2.2m x 2.2m area to use. If it's going to be rarely used because of the power it draws, its a waste of roof space. Maybe I'll look into a nice mini split system, later.

I'm also moving everything to the garage. At tge moment there are 2 x 100AH batteries under the passenger seat. 1 x 100AH battery under the habitation seat (behind the passenger seat). The controller is in the wardrobe, at the back of the vehicle. The solar cable comes through the roof, into this wardrobe. The garage is the other side of tge wardrobe side panel. By putting everything in the garage, I can keep all the wirring shorter. The only long cable will be from the alternator.

It's going to be interesting

 

[PeteMallorca]

Can anyone clarify this, please. On the Victron site, they say that up to 5m cabe length, the inverter will need 2 x 95mm². There are 2 positive and 2 negative connections. Is this 2 x 95mm² for positive and 2 x 95mm² for negative?

Also, I presume that the cables that connect the 3 batteries together, should be the same size?

This is the wording for the (*) in the photo.

"
(*) One cable must be sized to carry the rated fuse current without overheating. Do not locate battery cables in a closed conduit. Please follow local installation rules. Sufficient cable thickness and appropriate sized batteries are an important factor. Please consult your supplier or see the relevant sections of our books: Energy Unlimited and Wiring Unlimited, both downloadable from our website.
"

 

[Raul]

Yes it means 2x 95mm2 for positive and 2 for negative.
If your 3 batteries are in paralel, then between them should be 70mm2, or each battery to a buss bar.
And before you say they are overkill, it’s a 2,18% or 0,3v voltage drop at 4m with the 2x95mm2. Victron table is spot on.

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