Keeping habitation electrics on. (2 Viewers)

[wheelie67]

Afternoon Guys,

So I'm trying to find the supposed relay that turns the habitation electrics off when the engine is running on our 2018 Bailey.

I've searched and searched but Google can't give me a definitive answer of where this relay is, or a wiring diagram, but I believe that the green alternator wire is the signal wire.

Today I've taken the 12v / 240v electric box under the seat apart, and inside, hidden in the wiring is a little black box with 'HALL CURRENT SENSOR' written on it.

Could this be the mischievious little monkey that I'm after, (although obvs it's not a relay) that senses a current and shuts the electrics down?

I've never come across one of these before in 30 years of building custom cars so not totally sure what it does.

Cheers Ears.

 

[dabhand]

Afternoon Guys,

So I'm trying to find the supposed relay that turns the habitation electrics off when the engine is running on our 2018 Bailey.

I've searched and searched but Google can't give me a definitive answer of where this relay is, or a wiring diagram, but I believe that the green alternator wire is the signal wire.

Today I've taken the 12v / 240v electric box under the seat apart, and inside, hidden in the wiring is a little black box with 'HALL CURRENT SENSOR' written on it.

Could this be the mischievious little monkey that I'm after, (although obvs it's not a relay) that senses a current and shuts the electrics down?

I've never come across one of these before in 30 years of building custom cars so not totally sure what it does.

Cheers Ears.

Why would you need a 240v supply current sensor on a custom car?

 

[Shrimp]

Yes, why?
Sorry ignore that I didn’t realise Eng vans turn 12v off when engine is running...weird!

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[TheBig1]

on some vans, the relay is soldered to the control panel printed circuit board

 

[peterc10]

Why would you need a 240v supply current sensor on a custom car?

Simon, I think he is referring to the 12v habitation electrics, so he is probably looking in the wrong place. Bailey, like most other UK converters, switch off the habitation 12v while the engine running. Stupid idea IMHO from the NCC (National Caravan Council) Nearly all UK converters started by making caravans and it still shows.

I think Jaws or Two on Tour may be able to help the OP..

 

[wheelie67]

Why would you need a 240v supply current sensor on a custom car?

Well thats why I've never seen one before when fiddling with 12v cars!

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[dabhand]

Simon, I think he is referring to the 12v habitation electrics, so he is probably looking in the wrong place. Bailey, like most other UK converters, switch off the habitation 12v while the engine running. Stupid idea IMHO from the NCC (National Caravan Council) Nearly all UK converters started by making caravans and it still shows.

I think Jaws or Two on Tour may be able to help the OP..

Doesn’t change my question though Peter dear

 

[wheelie67]

on some vans, the relay is soldered to the control panel printed circuit board

Yes that's what I was in the box looking for, with my torch behind the circuit board to illuminate the solder tracks. I got a far as tracing an incoming thick red cable to 2 relays which then supply most of the fuses with power. But then I found this black box, so started wondering.

 

[dabhand]

Is there an override facility on your main panel?

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[wheelie67]

Is there an override facility on your main panel?

No not that I can see.

 

[SteveB123]

Some people will try to give helpful answers some will just try to be smart arses.

 

[Two on Tour]

Afternoon Guys,

So I'm trying to find the supposed relay that turns the habitation electrics off when the engine is running on our 2018 Bailey.

I've searched and searched but Google can't give me a definitive answer of where this relay is, or a wiring diagram, but I believe that the green alternator wire is the signal wire.

Today I've taken the 12v / 240v electric box under the seat apart, and inside, hidden in the wiring is a little black box with 'HALL CURRENT SENSOR' written on it.

Could this be the mischievious little monkey that I'm after, (although obvs it's not a relay) that senses a current and shuts the electrics down?

I've never come across one of these before in 30 years of building custom cars so not totally sure what it does.

Cheers Ears.

You might have had a "hall current sensor" in your custom cars with out realising it if you have used electronic ignition in your distributors.
A lot of electronic ignition distributor use magnets in the rotor arm which as it passes the hall effect sensor in the distributor causes it to act as a switch which in effect all a set of points are.

Bailey may well be using a hall current sensor to sense the alternator output via the D+ wire to act as a switch for the hab electrics while the engine is running.

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[dabhand]

No not that I can see.

My panel has groupings on it, it takes three or four presses to get to 12v which you can then turn on or off but it does sound as though yours is a hardwire situation, what I don’t understand is why the 12v habitation electrics go to off when you start the engine, do you have a fridge that works on 12v when the engine is running?

 

[peterc10]

You might have had a "hall current sensor" in your custom cars with out realising it if you have used electronic ignition in your distributors.
A lot of electronic ignition distributor use a magnets in the rotor arm which as it passes the hall effect sensor in the distributor causes it to act as a switch which in effect all a set of points are.

Bailey may well be using a hall current sensor to sense the alternator output via the D+ wire to act as a switch for the hab electrics while the engine is running.

On a diesel?

My panel has groupings on it, it takes three or four presses to get to 12v which you can then turn on or off but it does sound as though yours is a hardwire situation, what I don’t understand is why the 12v habitation electrics go to off when you start the engine, do you have a fridge that works on 12v when the engine is running?

Simon, all UK made motorhomes do that, Yours (and my) Hymer doesn't. The only thing that stays on is the fridge

 

[dabhand]

On a diesel?

Simon, all UK made motorhomes do that, Yours (and my) Hymer doesn't. The only thing that stays on is the fridge

Well, I didn’t know that, is there a reason?

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[peterc10]

Well, I didn’t know that, is there a reason?

None that makes any sense. My guess is a hangover from when they made caravans, in which case you did not need electrics in a caravan when you were towing it. Similar to thinking that all motorhomers use an aquaroll and so need an external pump point.

 

[Two on Tour]

On a diesel?

Two different subject I was referring to on the Hall Current Sensor Peter.

Hall Current Sensor in simple terms can be used as a switch and if it's sensing the alternator with an output then it matters not if the alternator is fitted on a petrol or diesel engine

 

[Two on Tour]

Well, I didn’t know that, is there a reason?

This shutdown of hab electrics on UK vans is allegedly due to EMC regulations... The policy for UK motorhome manufacturers to disable certain habitation 12V services (eg. lights, water-pump, hob/oven/fridge gas-igniters) goes right back to the 1990s when electronic safety-systems (ABS and the like) began to be fitted to vehicles.

"The purpose of electromagnetic compatibility (EMC) is to keep all those side effects under reasonable control. ... The electromagnetic compatibility (EMC) Directive 2014/30/EU ensures that electrical and electronic equipment does not generate, or is not affected by, electromagnetic disturbance."

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[dabhand]

This shutdown of hab electrics on UK vans is allegedly due to EMC regulations... The policy for UK motorhome manufacturers to disable certain habitation 12V services (eg. lights, water-pump, hob/oven/fridge gas-igniters) goes right back to the 1990s when electronic safety-systems (ABS and the like) began to be fitted to vehicles.

"The purpose of electromagnetic compatibility (EMC) is to keep all those side effects under reasonable control. ... The electromagnetic compatibility (EMC) Directive 2014/30/EU ensures that electrical and electronic equipment does not generate, or is not affected by, electromagnetic disturbance."

Does this mean no U.K. van has a fridge that works on 12v whilst being driven and more to the point, I have a European van that allows all of the above so it all sounds a bit daft doesn’t it

 

[Two on Tour]

Does this mean no U.K. van has a fridge that works on 12v whilst being driven and more to the point, I have a European van that allows all of the above so it all sounds a bit daft doesn’t it

Fridge/freezers run on 12v while the engine is running on UK van and yes, it's a total nonsense having the hab electrics switch off on UK vans.
It's not a case of the European van being allows to have the hab electrics on, more a case of not putting into practice the EU directives issued which as usual the Brits had been follow to the letter.

 

[Phill D]

Does this mean no U.K. van has a fridge that works on 12v whilst being driven and more to the point, I have a European van that allows all of the above so it all sounds a bit daft doesn’t it

uk vans fridges do work when engine is running but yep it is daft.

a service center tried to convince me our ADRIA had a fault on hab electrics because it does not have that feature, told him politely to pock off!

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[dabhand]

Fridge/freezers run on 12v while the engine is running on UK van and yes, it's a total nonsense having the hab electrics switch off on UK vans.
It's not a case of the European van being allows to have the hab electrics on, more a case of not putting into practice the EU directives issued which as usual the Brits follow to the letter.

Maybe not so often now though!

 

[LesW]

I to would like to disable this on our Inca too, but the wiring looks a nightmare without any diagram to go by.

Sometimes it's handy to be able to use the 12v outlets, (or put the lights) on in the hab area when the engine is running charging various appliances etc. to enable this I did fit a 12v accessory socket directly from the hab battery.

 

[Two on Tour]

Maybe not so often now though!

Indebted for picking up on I my mistake and duly corrected. Hopefully not too many funsters caught sight of it.

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[Bessy765]

On our 2012 Elddisthe ready that does that and makes the step retract and turn on power to the fridge,Isi the B post by the drivers shoulder. Its a little block that gets a signal from the D+ when the alternator is charging. Each circuit has its own plug into the relay just pulled out the lighting one. Lights etc stay on when engine running. Luckily our new Burstner does not have that problem. It was from an old construction and use regulation to prevent internal lighting spoiling the drivers vision.

 

[autorouter]

Today I've taken the 12v / 240v electric box under the seat apart, and inside, hidden in the wiring is a little black box with 'HALL CURRENT SENSOR' written on it

Does the electrics box have a make and model? They are often common to many motorhomes, and contain connections and relays including the habitation relay you are looking for.

 

[johnnyjp5]

wave a magnet by the sensor and see if the lights turn off.

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[Pausim]

If you can’t find the relay that cuts off the power would it be easier to add a second relay that bypasses it and neutralises the effect? A normally open relay powered by a D+ signal could provide the bypass when the engine is running and leave everything as normal when the engine is off.

I can understand an isolation circuit in a caravan in case unwanted circuits are left on but it seems the manufacturers and NCC have not noticed that motorhomes need different services. Sadly I think our UK motorhome manufacturers have a problem keeping up with developments, which is perhaps why some of them are being picked off by oversees competitors.

 

[Dave Flegg]

Afternoon Guys,

So I'm trying to find the supposed relay that turns the habitation electrics off when the engine is running on our 2018 Bailey.

I've searched and searched but Google can't give me a definitive answer of where this relay is, or a wiring diagram, but I believe that the green alternator wire is the signal wire.

Today I've taken the 12v / 240v electric box under the seat apart, and inside, hidden in the wiring is a little black box with 'HALL CURRENT SENSOR' written on it.

Could this be the mischievious little monkey that I'm after, (although obvs it's not a relay) that senses a current and shuts the electrics down?

I've never come across one of these before in 30 years of building custom cars so not totally sure what it does.

Cheers Ears.

Mine is attached to the Cab battery. Older model van. Senses the alternator kick in then provided 12V to fridge and shuts step / dissables Hab power. 2nd relay in same place provides 12V charge to leisure batteries. Mines an older model though.

 

[autorouter]

Today I've taken the 12v / 240v electric box under the seat apart, and inside, hidden in the wiring is a little black box with 'HALL CURRENT SENSOR' written on it.

Could this be the mischievious little monkey that I'm after, (although obvs it's not a relay) that senses a current and shuts the electrics down?

The Hall Current Sensor is a device that measures current (amps). Typically it's used to monitor the charge going into and out of the leisure battery, and using a microcomputer to calculate the % state of charge of the battery. It won't be related to the relay that turns off the habitation circuits. It's an alternative technology to the 'current shunt resistor' method that is more popular.

Disabling the D+ signal from the alternator isn't a good idea, because it's used for several functions, including the fridge while the engine is running, and the split charge relay that charges the leisure battery when the engine is running. If we knew which electrics box it was, someone might know which relay is the habitation relay, and how to disable it.