Interesting 'wild camping' info from ex-cop (1 Viewer)

[Viennese]

Seen on Facebook today.. Some one commented "Not entirely true. Traffic orders can contain specific requirements that you cannot sleep or Park a campervan on certain roads. If they contain these then you can be ticketed. Oh and my credentials, I work for a highway authority."

 

[Zigisla]

I was always lead to believe that because the Highways belong to someone, you cannot "Camp" unless there is a sign stipulating you can. Therefore officially no overnight sleeping - which we have discussed at length here is camping, in your MH at any time on the roads.

 

[chaser]

I was always lead to believe that because the Highways belong to someone, you cannot "Camp" unless there is a sign stipulating you can. Therefore officially no overnight sleeping - which we have discussed at length here is camping, in your MH at any time on the roads.

Actually I think they belong to us
They are PUBLIC highways

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[chaser]

Don't know how old that post is, it was always the case but thought the law changed in the 60s

 

[Gromett]

I believe the post is actually correct. There are obviously exceptions such as local bylaws.

What leads me to this conclusion was this video. It is 7 minute long, the guy involved is a plonker but the end result is interesting. The police have no powers to move a homeless guy sleeping in a shop doorway in their own words they can ask someone to move on but not enforce it.




My view is that if a copper were to knock on my door and ask me to move, then it was due to a local complaining. As a fulltimer I do not want to upset locals so would move on not because I was legally obliged to but because I don't want to cause upset. There is also the fear that locals may take matters into their own hands and that could turn nasty. Better just to move on.

 

[Zigisla]

Actually I think they belong to us
They are PUBLIC highways

Be which it means that the Public have a right to use it, not that we own it.
http://www.motorhomeparking.co.uk/roads.htm makes good reading. No National Legislation but some local by laws etc.

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[chaser]

Be which it means that the Public have a right to use it, not that we own it.

Ok I'll go with that, but years ago when people started caravaning , you could park on any bit of ground near a road, and I don't remember when it was but the law was changed so that they couldn't , there are old photos about on the internet somewhere where folks are parked up in the middle of towns and quite free to do so , much the same as many years ago when there was no motors at all and anyone traveling on foot or horseback just got down and slept anywhere they wanted.

 

[chaser]

Here's the history when it changed
http://www.period-classic-caravan-club.co.uk/1960s

 

[Zigisla]

there are old photos about on the internet somewhere where folks are parked up in the middle of towns and quite free to do so , much the same as many years ago when there was no motors at all and anyone traveling on foot or horseback just got down and slept anywhere they wanted.

What, Like that guy in Scotland did on the thread yesterday.

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[chaser]

What, Like that guy in Scotland did on the thread yesterday.

Much like that yes, we parked in some fair places with our old a35 van in the 60s, that's why I couldn't condemn the bloke, but had to smile.

 

[pyro]

In most cases, one only has to look at traveller legislation to realise that the police have far greater powers to move you on from public property than from private property, where they require a court order (there is no statutory power of official entry to a PCSO even to publicly accessible private land)

It is very good advice to record a police visit, and certainly perfectly lawful to do so. I do "wild camp", but not by roads or near residential premises, and it is only for the occasional overnight stop.

Bylaws can be enforced through the use of FPNs (Fixed Penalty Notices: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/enforcement-officers-issuing-fixed-penalty-notices), but only if there is good reason (obstruction, disturbance, etc) and only where it is "in the public interest"

Generally, the original post is pretty much correct, although it is best to avoid a situation where people are going to get wound up enough to call the police in the first place.

 

[Viennese]

Don't know how old that post is, it was always the case but thought the law changed in the 60s

It was posted today on William RS McCall's page

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[Figaro]

Ok I'll go with that, but years ago when people started caravaning , you could park on any bit of ground near a road, and I don't remember when it was but the law was changed so that they couldn't , there are old photos about on the internet somewhere where folks are parked up in the middle of towns and quite free to do so , much the same as many years ago when there was no motors at all and

That must have been before we became so overcrowded and with rules and regulations governing our every movement.
Ahh, those were the days ......

 

[SpeedyDux]

I was always lead to believe that because the Highways belong to someone, you cannot "Camp" unless there is a sign stipulating you can. Therefore officially no overnight sleeping - which we have discussed at length here is camping, in your MH at any time on the roads.

The subsoil of the highway might belong to a private landowner, or it might be in public ownership. Unlawful use can be a trespass against the rights of the landowner, or it can be a punishable offence. The only recognised right of the public can be summed up as (a) a limited right of access to use the public highway to pass and repass, and for matters incidental or ancillary to that right, and (b) to use the public highway for such reasonable and usual activities, including peaceful assembly on the highway, as are consistent with and do not obstruct the public's primary right of passage along the highway.

The highest Court (in England) has said that "while the right may extend to a picnic on the verge, it would not extend to camping there."
- Lord Clyde in DPP v Jones and Another (1999), House of Lords. The case concerned an appeal against conviction for a trespassory assembly under the Public Order Act 1986. Although as far as I know the legality in England of wild camping in a MH is still a grey area and carries on being tolerated, this gives us a useful pointer as to which way a test case about camping overnight in a MH on or close to a highway might be decided.

 

[Langtoftlad]

...and thus we discuss the technicalities of sleeping overnight in a vehicle versus camping...

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[Jim]

Much better just to tell the copper you'd love to move but your pissed

 

[Zigisla]

Much better just to tell the copper you'd love to move but your pissed

Then we get the argument of did you intend to drive off and at what time . Unless of course you answer the door in your PJs and rubbing your eyes

 

[maxi77]

Seen on Facebook today.. Some one commented "Not entirely true. Traffic orders can contain specific requirements that you cannot sleep or Park a campervan on certain roads. If they contain these then you can be ticketed. Oh and my credentials, I work for a highway authority."

View attachment 176141

I think though that if it is a local authority regulation that it has to be a council enforcement officer these days

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[Chrysalis]

Much better just to tell the copper you'd love to move but your pissed

I think that if you are in the motorhome or a car, then you are technically in charge of it, and liable for drink-driving charges, even if not intending to drive. Does anyone know if this is the case when wild camping in off-road lay-bys?

 

[Jim]

I think that if you are in the motorhome or a car, then you are technically in charge of it, and liable for drink-driving charges, even if not intending to drive. Does anyone know if this is the case when wild camping in off-road lay-bys?

 

[Stealaway]

In 5 years we have stayed on a camp site maybe twice. We go away at least 30/40 nights a year in the UK and have never been moved on from laybys, picnic/parking areas or even the roadside . We are careful not to annoy anyone and have even been reassured by the police knocking on the door to warn us this might be a dogging venue, but no one came knocking on our door for us to make a decision as to whether to join in!

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[pyro]

I think that if you are in the motorhome or a car, then you are technically in charge of it, and liable for drink-driving charges, even if not intending to drive. Does anyone know if this is the case when wild camping in off-road lay-bys?

Correct. I believe it applies to any area to which the public have access

 

[Wildbill]

Just tell the police officer you are to tired to move and if he insist just tell him that if you move one meter and crash he will be held responsible.
No one cam make you drive while tired not even a cop and my brother is a puree B of a ex cop but we have many a chat abut on street parkin off street parkin and wild camping.
he still work with the traffic but now as a civilian it is very difficult to prove sleeping in your van.
you parked up with the curtains closed ant you are you sleeping in your van sir when you answer the door dose it look like I am asleep.
just siting with the curtains closed.
bill

 

[Wildbill]

I think that if you are in the motorhome or a car, then you are technically in charge of it, and liable for drink-driving charges, even if not intending to drive. Does anyone know if this is the case when wild camping in off-road lay-bys?

they have to prove intent to drive if the curtains are up.
seats folded forward and beads made up.
it would be very difficult to prove attempting or intending to drive under the influence of drink or drugs
you have to be fund to have intent to drive
in all my years of off site camping I have never had a problem
i don't drink now but if i did i would not have changed any thing
i have sat in a layby all set up for a night and had a copier siting in my van having a brew and me with a Budweiser in my hand
no problem as long as your batond down for the night and stay out the drivers seat.
bill

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[Dilbert]

Will someone mention truck drivers parked up for the night? ( in a lay-by ) how can the council/ police treat camper vans any different?

 

[jumartoo]

It's a sad reflection of our times that people wanting to park quietly somewhere and just go to sleep are worried about being moved on by the police when there are also sorts of other activities going on that seem to be ignored.

 

[John & Joan]

The Police have powers to make you move, if you are causing an obstruction to the Highway.

If they think you are camping they are required to report any suspicion to the local authority. The Local Authority then have to send an officer out to negotiate a move. This is part of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act.

The local authority officer has to take account of Ethnic Origin (Travellers and their many variant) when making such decisions. Full timers could be classed under these regulations as "New Travellers".
The Highway stretches to the fence line (or a nominal distance) either side of the carriageway. Parking on a roadside verge is not permitted, that is why laybys have been provided to provide a safe stopping place. During lighting up hours, remember that lights must be displayed, on vehicles parked in a layby with a speed limit greater than 30mph, so the Police could charge you with that offence.

Sleeping and eating in a parked vehicle is not camping.
Traffic Regulation Orders (TRO) are to facilitate the free movement of traffic. Many TROs have such cooking. eating and sleeping provision in them, regarding car parks, but these could be open to challenge.

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[Pia]

I believe the post is actually correct. There are obviously exceptions such as local bylaws.

What leads me to this conclusion was this video. It is 7 minute long, the guy involved is a plonker but the end result is interesting. The police have no powers to move a homeless guy sleeping in a shop doorway in their own words they can ask someone to move on but not enforce it.




My view is that if a copper were to knock on my door and ask me to move, then it was due to a local complaining. As a fulltimer I do not want to upset locals so would move on not because I was legally obliged to but because I don't want to cause upset. There is also the fear that locals may take matters into their own hands and that could turn nasty. Better just to move on.

Interesting....full of admiration for the local resident who challenged those bully boys.....the police were ok though and at least the knew the law. I agree with @Gromett if we were ever to park somewhere 'iffy' then we would definitely move if asked to ...unless of course we were over the legal limit for alchol....mind you we don't usually park unless we know we can and always check (at Britstops)before settling for the night.

 

[MattR]

The Police have powers to make you move, if you are causing an obstruction to the Highway.

If they think you are camping they are required to report any suspicion to the local authority. The Local Authority then have to send an officer out to negotiate a move. This is part of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act.

The local authority officer has to take account of Ethnic Origin (Travellers and their many variant) when making such decisions. Full timers could be classed under these regulations as "New Travellers".
The Highway stretches to the fence line (or a nominal distance) either side of the carriageway. Parking on a roadside verge is not permitted, that is why laybys have been provided to provide a safe stopping place. During lighting up hours, remember that lights must be displayed, on vehicles parked in a layby with a speed limit greater than 30mph, so the Police could charge you with that offence.

Sleeping and eating in a parked vehicle is not camping.
Traffic Regulation Orders (TRO) are to facilitate the free movement of traffic. Many TROs have such cooking. eating and sleeping provision in them, regarding car parks, but these could be open to challenge.

It does make me wonder why ethnicity comes into the equation. Should members of different ethnic groups be treated differently when in a layby? It is increasingly apparent that certain groups can invade private land and dump rubbish and sewage without prosecution but why should one group of people be given different rights on the highway?