Hello, How are fellow motorhomes coping with the new EU regulations on the 90 day stays in Europe, it has certainly has messed up my plans. (1 Viewer)

[deleted79651]

Could you spell out exactly what the source of that information is please? Not doubting you, just like to check original sources.

EU Regs. Lost my Bookmark, but will update later.

Steve

 

[x17ken]

1. 2.1.2. In the case of third-country nationals who are family members of EU, EEA and CH citizens, they have the right of residence in a Member State for a period of up to

three months if they are in possession of a valid passport and are accompanying or joining the EU, EEA or CH citizen, without any limitation to 90 days in a 180-day period.
To be noted that, third-country nationals who are family members of EU, EEA and CH citizens are entitled to accompany or join the EU, EEA or CH citizen for consecutive periods of up to three months per Schengen States without any conditions or formalities (except the need to have a visa for third-country nationals from a country subject to a visa requirement).
. When the family member travels on his/her own, the normal regime concerning the length of the short stay will (re)start to apply, as the conditions for benefiting from the facilitations concerning the free movement of the EU, EEA and CH citizens and their families are not met anymore.
The previous stays performed in the area without internal border controls accompanying or joining the EU, EEA or CH citizen should not be taken into account for the sake of the calculation of the compliance with the 90/180-day rule which is applicable to the short stay only.
*Examples
An Indian national married to a French citizen may accompany his French spouse to Germany for three months, Spain for two months and Italy for three months, thus staying in the area without internal border controls for a total consecutive period of eight months.
A Japanese citizen is married with an Estonian citizen and has never come to the EU before. The Japanese citizen accompanies his Estonian spouse to Italy for one month. Just after that month, the Estonian spouse leaves Italy and returns to Japan to work. The Japanese citizen can remain alone for another 90 days (the limit of 90 days in any 180-day applies).
A Chinese citizen married to a Swedish citizen spends alone, for business purposes, 15 days in Austria. The Swedish citizen then joins him and they spend one month in Portugal. Just after that month, the Swedish spouse leaves the EU. The Chinese citizen can remain alone for the remaining 75 days in the 180-day period (the limit of 90 days in any 180-day
18
period applies, but the stay performed together with the EU citizen should not be counted (in this example, the one month period) when assessing the respect of the limit of 90 days in any 180-day period.).

1. 2.1.2. In the case of third-country nationals who are family members of EU, EEA and CH citizens, they have the right of residence in a Member State for a period of up to

three months if they are in possession of a valid passport and are accompanying or joining the EU, EEA or CH citizen, without any limitation to 90 days in a 180-day period.
To be noted that, third-country nationals who are family members of EU, EEA and CH citizens are entitled to accompany or join the EU, EEA or CH citizen for consecutive periods of up to three months per Schengen States without any conditions or formalities (except the need to have a visa for third-country nationals from a country subject to a visa requirement).

So, in summary, the rule for a UK spouse of an EU passport holder is exactly as it was before 2020, providing that the spouse accompanies the passport holder. I believe the rule means that the couple should exit an individual EU state after 90 days, but can return after a day if they so wish. In my understanding this was the case for UK visitors to EU states prior to 2020, and remains the case for holidaying visitors within EU states now. As noted earlier the enforcement of the rule is completely undermined by the absence of border checks within the EU.

 

[nicholsong]

EU Rules state that a non EU national accompanying an EU national is not subject to the 90/180 Rule as long as they travel together. The Regs give several examples on how this would work in practice. I'll dig round later to find the Regs.

Steve

Yes please, because if that is correct it could benefit us - as long as it covers non-married persons accompanying the EU country national.

Geoff

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[acropolis22]

Yes please, because if that is correct it could benefit us - as long as it covers non-married persons accompanying the EU country national.

Geoff

I thought you'd be interested Geoff.

 

[deleted79651]

Yes please, because if that is correct it could benefit us - as long as it covers non-married persons accompanying the EU country national.

Geoff

Hi Geoff,
Just found it!
Joint EU Travel for EU and Non Eu Passport Holder

Relevant Regs 2.1.2 [Page 17]

Steve

 

[Phill D]

It appears to state spouse/ family members,,, I can't see any reference to say civil partnership. I guess if that was legally recorded that would count.

Can't see any relationship that is non " legal " for want of a better description being acceptable as an accompanying person.
Not trying to be smart arsed but
If that were the case then all we need is a mate resident of the EU to say we are "with them"

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[acropolis22]

It appears to state spouse/ family members,,, I can't see any reference to say civil partnership. I guess if that was legally recorded that would count.

Can't see any relationship that is non " legal " for want of a better description being acceptable as an accompanying person.
Not trying to be smart arsed but
If that were the case then all we need is a mate resident of the EU to say we are "with them"

I think the person it depends on has to be an EU citizen, not just a legal resident.

 

[Phill D]

I think the person it depends on has to be an EU citizen, not just a legal resident.

Sorry yes I should have made that clearer, but the legal status of the other person to the EU citizen is the point I was rather clumsily trying to make.

 

[gus-lopez]

Would she need to apply for a visa to overstay the 90 days with me?

No.as long as you are there & comply with the 90 consecutive days then leave for 1 day ,or go elsewhere, Then return.

Putin’s goal is to be a formidable world power and dismantling the eu will certainly further that purpose

Hopefully it will all kick off in the Crimea & we can nuke them there & then ask does he want more?

Could you spell out exactly what the source of that information is please? Not doubting you, just like to check original sources.

It is the EU directive for residency ,etc; Also covered in here;
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32004L0038&from=en
Article 6.1 & 6.2

the rules for anyone with an passport for a country still within the european nion is tha same as it always was.
90 consecutive days ,leave for a day & return again forever if yo want. Or leave & go elsewhere for 90 day s , ad infinitum.

The EU spouse has the same rights as long as accompanying the EU citizen.

So, in summary, the rule for a UK spouse of an EU passport holder is exactly as it was before 2020, providing that the spouse accompanies the passport holder. I believe the rule means that the couple should exit an individual EU state after 90 days, but can return after a day if they so wish. In my understanding this was the case for UK visitors to EU states prior to 2020, and remains the case for holidaying visitors within EU states now. As noted earlier the enforcement of the rule is completely undermined by the absence of border checks within the EU.

Yes ,spot on.

Yes please, because if that is correct it could benefit us - as long as it covers non-married persons accompanying the EU country national.

Geoff

As long as you can comply with article 2.2 here. Or Article 3 ,Beneficiaries.
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32004L0038&from=en

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[nobby]

We will be full timing soon, and in an ideal world would be wandering around Europe and popping back here very occasionally. We don’t know which country, if any, we will want to settle in so getting residency isn’t an option at this stage.

Don’t forget you will have to show proof of income which I believe is over 30k if you want to stay in Spain

 

[gus-lopez]

I think the person it depends on has to be an EU citizen, not just a legal resident.

No a permanent legal resident with id card, if they have a non-eu partner they are covered as well. Normally though the non-eu partner/children /parents etc of an permanent resident would have their own ID cards .
Originally when the UK was in the Eu the permanent resident uK citizen would have a useless piece of paper which stated that it in no way confirmed that the holder was who they said theywere so you had to back it up with a passport, whereas the non-eu spouse,children ,etc; all had biometric id cards.

 

[acropolis22]

This presumably covers the issue of non married couples. No idea how you prove comlpliance.

(b)	the partner with whom the Union citizen has a durable relationship, duly attested.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Phill D]

This presumably covers the issue of non married couples. No idea how you prove comlpliance.

(b)	the partner with whom the Union citizen has a durable relationship, duly attested.

That's the key words..... "duly attested".

 

[acropolis22]

That's the key words..... "duly attested".

Yes, slightly vague, but fairly ominous for a relationship with no paperwork.

 

[acropolis22]

No a permanent legal resident with id card, if they have a non-eu partner they are covered as well. Normally though the non-eu partner/children /parents etc of an permanent resident would have their own ID cards .
Originally when the UK was in the Eu the permanent resident uK citizen would have a useless piece of paper which stated that it in no way confirmed that the holder was who they said theywere so you had to back it up with a passport, whereas the non-eu spouse,children ,etc; all had biometric id cards.

Maybe I'm not patient enough to find it, but the document you posted seems to state that the only beneficiaries are EU citizens, and their dependents etc. Are you saying that the WA specified that those already legally resident before 31/12/20 would have their rights protected even though they are not EU citizens? I haven't taken much interest in the WA since we left Greece.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Phill D]

Yes, slightly vague, but fairly ominous for a relationship with no paperwork.

I not sure I would like to argue that "this is my partner " with the border control team without any form of signed attestation to that effect.

 

[acropolis22]

I not sure I would like to argue that "this is my partner " with the border control team without any form of signed attestation to that effect.

Indeed. Fortunately, I won't have to.

 

[deleted79651]

This presumably covers the issue of non married couples. No idea how you prove comlpliance.

(b)	the partner with whom the Union citizen has a durable relationship, duly attested.

When we bought our French hovel 11 years ago, we had to produce our respective Birth Certificates, Divorce Papers from our previous respective marriages and [current] Marriage Certificate, plus our passports. Each time we travel to Europe, the folder with these Papers comes with us, alongside the Passports.

Of course, in Nov 2020, when we left the hovel to travel to Spain for some Winter Sun, we left the Folder on the corner of the Dining Room Table and had reached Bordeaux before we realised ... 375 miles round trip for a 5mins visit, incl. the time to unlock and relock the hovel ... No more entries for 'Wally of the Week' competition being accepted ...

Steve

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[gwyntaxi]

The limit is 12 months. https://www.gov.uk/taking-vehicles-...K law still applies to,you have a current MOT

I may be wrong on this but as I understood it, if you’re vehicle was in Spain for more than 6 months you had to apply for Spanish registration plates, then as a British citizen you weren’t allowed to drive it legally as a person from a country other than Spain, as I’ve said tho’ I may be wrong....

 

[gus-lopez]

This presumably covers the issue of non married couples. No idea how you prove comlpliance.

(b)	the partner with whom the Union citizen has a durable relationship, duly attested.

yes difficult in some countries. Here in spain you can register " common law spouse' which is sometimes used by people who cannot or do not wish to marry.'Hecho a mano' seems to ring a bell for the description? Takes a long while to get even with a spanish other half doing the paperwork

Maybe I'm not patient enough to find it, but the document you posted seems to state that the only beneficiaries are EU citizens, and their dependents etc. Are you saying that the WA specified that those already legally resident before 31/12/20 would have their rights protected even though they are not EU citizens? I haven't taken much interest in the WA since we left Greece.

Yes, They maintain the same rights as before. Even if their spouse died or they divorced there rights remain the same as they were under the WA. They cannot be asked to leave.

 

[acropolis22]

yes difficult in some countries. Here in spain you can register " common law spouse' which is sometimes used by people who cannot or do not wish to marry.'Hecho a mano' seems to ring a bell for the description? Takes a long while to get even with a spanish other half doing the paperwork

Yes, They maintain the same rights as before. Even if their spouse died or they divorced there rights remain the same as they were under the WA. They cannot be asked to leave.

Sorry to be pedantic. I realise they had all their rights protected in their country of residence, but does the WA protect the rights they previously had under DIRECTIVE 2004/38 when they were EU citizens, which they no longer are? We're talking about Brits, obviously.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[gus-lopez]

I may be wrong on this but as I understood it, if you’re vehicle was in Spain for more than 6 months you had to apply for Spanish registration plates, then as a British citizen you weren’t allowed to drive it legally as a person from a country other than Spain, as I’ve said tho’ I may be wrong....

Correct, but if YOU were in spain for 90 consecutive days you were required to register for residency. Even if you failed to comply you would be treated as a resident in any legal proceedings. Therefore once over 90 consecutive days you would now be driving the UK registered vehicle illegally as a spanish national/resident cannot drive a foreign registered vehicle.
In the event of injury or death accidnets it is the first thing the lawyers look for & has happened on a couple of occasions to my knowledge up in Alicante

 

[gus-lopez]

Sorry to be pedantic. I realise they had all their rights protected in their country of residence, but does the WA protect the rights they previously had under DIRECTIVE 2004/38 when they were EU citizens, which they no longer are? We're talking about Brits, obviously.

Yes, except the right to vote in european elections & the right to stand as a candidate in the same.

 

[deleted79651]

Sorry to be pedantic. I realise they had all their rights protected in their country of residence, but does the WA protect the rights they previously had under DIRECTIVE 2004/38 when they were EU citizens, which they no longer are? We're talking about Brits, obviously.

Sir David Edward, former ECJ Judge at the Court of First Instance, and now Professor of International Law at University of Edinburgh, wrote an Opinion in about Dec 2012 that extended to Rights of Citizenship and said that those Rights would remain, even after EU State Membership had ceased. This principle stems from the original European Project design in the aftermath of WWII, with the intention of avoiding/preventing a repeat of practices that could leave Europe swamped with millions of stateless citizens. I might still have the Opinion bookmarked somewhere, alongside n number of similar 'ooh that's interesting' items ...

Steve

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[gwyntaxi]

The ever-present insinuation by Remainers here is that Brexiteers did not know what they were voting for.

I imagine from past posts, that a very high number of funsters did vote to leave.

Why not create a poll on the forum to find out whether this is true or not.

Perhaps then, everyone from whichever side of the fence they lie will accept the result and either ignore further accusations or indeed recognise the insinuation’s validation.

Asking for a friend!

I think you may find that too many folk will be to embarrassed to admit they voted to leave without really understanding All the consequences, I.e. a lot of people only heard Farage spouting how Uk would take back control of their borders, which we all found out to be a load of rubbish, he didn’t labour on points like ‘you will only be able to visit EU 90/180 so hard luck if you own property out there’ etc, etc, there were quite a few forfeits and loss of certain privileges which many had not realised... Just sayin

 

[acropolis22]

Sir David Edward, former ECJ Judge at the Court of First Instance, and now Professor of International Law at University of Edinburgh, wrote an Opinion in about Dec 2012 that extended to Rights of Citizenship and said that those Rights would remain, even after EU State Membership had ceased. This principle stems from the original European Project design in the aftermath of WWII, with the intention of avoiding/preventing a repeat of practices that could leave Europe swamped with millions of stateless citizens. I might still have the Opinion bookmarked somewhere, alongside n number of similar 'ooh that's interesting' items ...

Steve

Interesting, but we're not talking about an individual losing citizenship. The question was whether a British citizen, legally resident in an EU country before 31/12/20, would, under the WA, retain the rights he previously had as an "EU citizen" under DIRECTIVE 2004/38, even though he is no longer an "EU citizen". I think I am right in saying that whilst British citizens retain certain rights they had as "EU citizens", they certainly do not retain "EU citizenship" as such. (Of course, there is no such thing as an "EU citizen" is there? Just citizenship of an EU member state.) Which no Briton now has, unless they are dual nationals. I could be wrong. I'm not a lawyer.

 

[x17ken]

foreign registered vehicle.

Sorry if I am going down a rabbit hole. What is a "Foreign Registered Vehicle"? My German-built MoHo was registered in complete compliance with UK and European law in 2019 - when the UK was a member state. Is it "foreign" under Spanish Law?

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[acropolis22]

Sorry if I am going down a rabbit hole. What is a "Foreign Registered Vehicle"? My German-built MoHo was registered in complete compliance with UK and European law in 2019 - when the UK was a member state. Is it "foreign" under Spanish Law?

Anything not registered in Spain is foreign under Spanish law surely.

 

[jongood]

I've never been but it sounds like a fair bit of the economy there could be run by off the radar Brits so the tax loss could be pretty small. The long term hotel stayers could still go for 3 months and all the long term stay caravan/ motorhomers from other EU countries as long as they like. I think the loss to the economy would be pretty small.

But you've never been so having a guess.

I have been . we lasted 24 hours its not for us, but you can't help but notice how the Benidorm economy is totally dominated by brits. Never going to be the main event for the EU but will make a big difference to the local businesses.

 

[The general]

I think you may find that too many folk will be to embarrassed to admit they voted to leave without really understanding All the consequences,

Speak for your self , 90/180 days I think would have been in the very very small print ! In the grand scheme of things a minor point how many punters have second homes ?? I am not the least embarrassed to say I voted to leave thank you .

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}