For those thinking of using P&O Ferries (1 Viewer)

[15edward]

Gellyneck: Would be interesting to read this article. Do you have a link to it?

Cross-channel ferry crews must be paid at least £9.95 an hour under French law

Cross-channel ferry crews must be paid at least £9.95 an hour under French law

New minimum wage law to be brought in two years after P&O Ferries replaced hundreds of workers with low-cost crew

www.theguardian.com

 

[DuxDeluxe]

But would they liable for UK tax as they would be employed by a foreign company on non-UK registered vessels? In respect of P&O Ferries would this be a UAE tax liability?

Is it just a condition placed upon the operator to gain access to UK port facilities similar to vessel condition / integrity?

A good question. As they are seamen employed by an agency outside the UK then there is no tax liability as far as I know. If directly employed by a UK company or if they were UK residents then there are tax implications. Ship operating is a complex business; in my last job it was sometimes hard to pin down who did exactly what……..

• Owners
• Managers
• Charterers
• Sub charterers
• Technical managers
• Operators
• Manning agency

Apart from the last one, any one of those could be responsible for paying the costs for a service

 

[15edward]

I wonder how many people have tried to start a business putting everything into it and willing to work for next to nothing but then being buggered by having to pay a worker twice as much as he is making.

Solved if they work as partners? Share the hard work AND the rewards?

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[Brains]

I get amazon deliveries 7 days a week

And 18hrs a day 365 days of the year.

But it's not the same delivery person.
If they work over 37 hrs a week they get overtime and paid holidays etc.

 

[Brains]

A good question. As they are seamen employed by an agency outside the UK then there is no tax liability as far as I know. If directly employed by a UK company or if they were UK residents then there are tax implications. Ship operating is a complex business; in my last job it was sometimes hard to pin down who did exactly what……..

• Owners
• Managers
• Charterers
• Sub charterers
• Technical managers
• Operators
• Manning agency

Apart from the last one, any one of those could be responsible for paying the costs for a service

I sat in the middle for 44 years. Shipbroking.

So we had an idea (most of the time!) of exactly who was responsible for doing what on any particular charter at any moment, all laid out in the Charter Party document.

But I agree it could be confusing, especially finding out who should be picking up the tab when it all went wrong and a ship was held up for months for one reason or another.

Re the bit on tax.
As far as I'm aware if a ship (example: Adriatic ferry run, or Greek inter island services) trading on a 'bus service' liner run, EU port to EU port, and never leaving EU waters then the crew are employed on EU T&C's and pay EU tax to a country.
(That is the loophole P&O have exploited)

I agree it get a bit more complicated when you have a say a Italian crew on a Greek inter island service, but someone is getting their tax.

 

[Coolcats]

Self employed are they

just nudged into the higher tax bracket of 40% if paye.

SO they get paid £200.00 per day, ? Cash ?

doing well !

Starting to make what P&O are doing look quite innocent if its like most of the labourers I have encountered,
unless of course its all paid electronically and tax ni paid cards in...( YA !!!) course it is guvner... !!!! LOL

So cynical, the day rate is for casual labour, I have their bank details and the money is transferred electronically it is shown on my accounts, everything and I mean everything is declared which means I get a good nights sleep

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[Brains]

At first I was the same, "how dare they etc" but hey needs must and I simply go the cheapest, that's usually P&O. nice staff.

.... and some of us have morals.

That was my original point on message #1
Please do not use P&O Ferries, no matter how cheap, as in the long term it is not good for anyone (except the major DP World Shareholders)

Would you buy another product which proudly put on the label "Made in Burma by unpaid Slaves" ?

 

[Coolcats]

So the only other option is Eurotunnel as Irish ferries did the same several years before not sure of DFDS but the Newhaven route only survives because of subsidies. Not sticking up for anyone but I guess if they didn't follow Irish ferries and the rest they would have gone bust. Eurotunnel will either have to follow suit or go bust as they are just running empty trains as they can't compete on price.

That's funny I have never been on a euro tunnel train which is empty I am sure it happens on occasions but are pretty full most of the time from what I have seen. people will pay for no mess no fuss an swift journey

 

[PaulC70]

I have morals, I also have a choice and if P&O are cheapest they will get my money, simple as that and no matter how much emotional blackmail is attempted.

Just saw the bit about the label and slaves, bit of a gratuitious statement really

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[Coolcats]

Not questioning anyones morals but the slave trade is real if we just base what we get for spending the least it maybe supporting the trade.

We all like a 'deal' and who doesn't, but I and others try and send our £ in a way that does not support exploitation maybe P&O are exploiting maybe they are not, however the way that they treated their staff and then the poor management that followed I really do not wish to give them any of my cash and would rather spend a few £ more in the hope whoever I am spending it with are and ethical company.

Out of interest here is a government paper on the economic and social cost of modern slavery

 

[Odd job]

however the way that they treated their staff

I do have a little sympathy for P&O we all know what would have happened if they had consulted the unions as they should have. The union would have rejected the redundancy offer and called a strike, P&O would have not been able to operate for weeks, possibly months. What they did was effectively to put all their crews on gardening leave for the consultation period and although they did not consul, the workers who lost their jobs did not lose out on any payments due. If we had unions that were far more prepared to work with management than to recourse to strike action it may have been possible to work out a solution that kept some of the workers employed even if at lower pay rates.

 

[DuxDeluxe]

But I agree it could be confusing, especially finding out who should be picking up the tab when it all went wrong and a ship was held up for months for one reason or another

Yes, done a lot of ship surveying when I left the sea and hit similar issues, plus when trying to flog marine services and bunker fuel analysis it was very hard not to conflict as a lot of fleets nowadays operate in a pool as well as all the other descriptions and apparently totally unrelated ships have the same bunker purchasing agreement. I set up a deal with an Italian owner once and had both the Cypriot and Greek managers on to me demanding the same price

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[Folkranger]

But they have, see:


Please read this article. Useful and a good post from DuxDeluxe.

Except they haven't been able to enforce it yet, I believe.

 

[Tombola]

which means I get a good nights sleep

I bet you do, Im not disputing that,

call it cynicism, call it realism, we will never know will we, as you pay them, your jobs done!

 

[Tombola]

So the only other option is Eurotunnel as Irish ferries did the same several years before not sure of DFDS but the Newhaven route only survives because of subsidies. Not sticking up for anyone but I guess if they didn't follow Irish ferries and the rest they would have gone bust. Eurotunnel will either have to follow suit or go bust as they are just running empty trains as they can't compete on price.

I was on the tunnel 10 days ago, on the 00:18 one, and there was just me and 2 other vans on.
I wouldnt worry about the margin....it is all offset by the other journeys costs too

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[Coolcats]

I do have a little sympathy for P&O we all know what would have happened if they had consulted the unions as they should have. The union would have rejected the redundancy offer and called a strike, P&O would have not been able to operate for weeks, possibly months. What they did was effectively to put all their crews on gardening leave for the consultation period and although they did not consul, the workers who lost their jobs did not lose out on any payments due. If we had unions that were far more prepared to work with management than to recourse to strike action it may have been possible to work out a solution that kept some of the workers employed even if at lower pay rates.

it is an interesting take on unions, most unions are quite savvy these days, gone are the days of the rabbid union leader

I had a Gas engineer visit me, he works for a well known national gas manufacturer and maintenance company, apparently there is no lunch or coffee break they drive all over the place during the day. the pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction and there is no union, when was it OK not to have breaks? it is dangerous and usury. even a half hour scheduled lunch and 10 mins for T & P break am and PM should be the minimum.

 

[DuxDeluxe]

it is an interesting take on unions, most unions are quite savvy these days, gone are the days of the rabbid union leader

Exactly right as far as the RMT are concerned, though. Attempted Negotiation had been ongoing for years but simply stonewalled and stuck under some really arcane working practices not seen on competing ferry companies

 

[jockaneezer]

If anyone wants an Insight into conditions aboard merchantships i reccomend reading 54days on a container ship

I bet terms and conditions haven't changed much since "Two years before the mast" !

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[Coolcats]

I bet you do, Im not disputing that,

call it cynicism, call it realism, we will never know will we, as you pay them, your jobs done!

It the little guy customs and revenue go after, and to be honest if someone is going to cheat the tax man they will probably try and cheat me and that would never have a good ending.

 

[Tombola]

no lunch or coffee break they drive all over the place during the day

20 mins every 6 hours was the min from memory, (not enough in my opinion and is counter-productive in some instances)
I find it hard to accept what he was saying as true these days, and if so, they are breaking the rules. (unlikely with a driver on the orad)

I wouldn't even be arsed with the union, Id just insist and take them. If that didnt suit my employer, they can do what they need to, or Id find another job anyway

 

[Odd job]

it is an interesting take on unions, most unions are quite savvy these days, gone are the days of the rabbid union leader

I had a Gas engineer visit me, he works for a well known national gas manufacturer and maintenance company, apparently there is no lunch or coffee break they drive all over the place during the day. the pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction and there is no union, when was it OK not to have breaks? it is dangerous and usury. even a half hour scheduled lunch and 10 mins for T & P break am and PM should be the minimum.

He may not be telling you the full story when I was a gasman I had my calls and it was up to me to decide how to do them. I could take a break but that would mean getting home later, so I chose not to take a break. We did have one manager who decided it was a welfare issue and for a while we were compelled to take a break. I booked it on my timesheet as wasting time. There was much grumbling from the engineers and it was dropped.

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[chaser]

He may not be telling you the full story when I was a gasman I had my calls and it was up to me to decide how to do them. I could take a break but that would mean getting home later, so I chose not to take a break. We did have one manager who decided it was a welfare issue and for a while we were compelled to take a break. I booked it on my timesheet as wasting time. There was much grumbling from the engineers and it was dropped.

Do you know what would be the best thing, make everyone self employed and then they can work as much or little as they like and for what they like, that would sort out them as want to work or not.
No dole , do your own tax , that would sort it.

 

[dash300]

Do you know what would be the best thing, make everyone self employed and then they can work as much or little as they like and for what they like, that would sort out them as want to work or not.
No dole , do your own tax , that would sort it.

Agreed. I resent my tax funding the work shy who all have some manufactured excuse to do nothing.
So called celebs are getting down with the people and all seems publicise they have suffered mental welfare issues been abused in some way have identity issues etc. etc. It's become a badge. This just feeds those who can't be arsed to get off their backsides to earn and just become money pits for those that do work. Yes of course there are genuine cases but come off it too many are just parasites!

 

[MichaelT]

That's funny I have never been on a euro tunnel train which is empty I am sure it happens on occasions but are pretty full most of the time from what I have seen. people will pay for no mess no fuss an swift journey

Try travelling now, we went out January back early March train only had a few vehicles, not seen a full one fir quite a few years

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[Brains]

Yes, done a lot of ship surveying when I left the sea and hit similar issues, plus when trying to flog marine services and bunker fuel analysis it was very hard not to conflict as a lot of fleets nowadays operate in a pool as well as all the other descriptions and apparently totally unrelated ships have the same bunker purchasing agreement. I set up a deal with an Italian owner once and had both the Cypriot and Greek managers on to me demanding the same price

As I used to tell the newbies joining the maritime industry, it's a global village, everyone knows everyone else.

A bit of gossip told to one person in Singapore will be told back to you from a person in New York within a matter of hours.
(And never insult anyone in the maritime industry, as you WILL come across them again and again, and they may be you next boss!)

 

[DuxDeluxe]

As I used to tell the newbies joining the maritime industry, it's a global village, everyone knows everyone else.

A bit of gossip told to one person in Singapore will be told back to you from a person in New York within a matter of hours.
(And never insult anyone in the maritime industry, as you WILL come across them again and again, and they may be you next boss!)

You are so right there. I was C/O on a gas ship doing a ship to ship transhipment of liquid ammonia (not fun). Had a beer with the other C/O, as you used to do, and met him 12 years later when he turned up as my boss in the Middle East.

 

[Coolcats]

Just a reminder for those thinking of using P&O Ferries to cross over to the mainland.

Two years ago they sacked all their UK staff, so that they could employ non-EU/UK residents at less than half the cost
(It was a "Brexit benefit" to P&O management as the ships were no longer trading EU to EU, but let's not go there.)

It has now been found here they are not even paying half minimum wage.
The loophole they used as a 'short term' gain, has really paid off, as two years later, they are still getting away with it.

I promised two years ago, that as long as P&O Ferries remains managed by DP Word of Dubai, that I would not use their services, no matter how cheap they make the crossings.
I'm keeping to my promise.

Will YOU promise too?

(It should be noted P&O Cruises is under different management)

Just an update

P&O Ferries seafarers have been told they will benefit from new French legislation that could double their pay, in what appears to be a significant U-turn by the controversial ferry operator.

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[PORKSTER]

Mate if I was 20 years younger I would love to be an average parcel guy at a fiver and hour, that is just what I did for 15 years.

You wouldn't be able to live

 

[Mzracer]

Just a reminder for those thinking of using P&O Ferries to cross over to the mainland.

Two years ago they sacked all their UK staff, so that they could employ non-EU/UK residents at less than half the cost
(It was a "Brexit benefit" to P&O management as the ships were no longer trading EU to EU, but let's not go there.)

It has now been found here they are not even paying half minimum wage.
The loophole they used as a 'short term' gain, has really paid off, as two years later, they are still getting away with it.

I promised two years ago, that as long as P&O Ferries remains managed by DP Word of Dubai, that I would not use their services, no matter how cheap they make the crossings.
I'm keeping to my promise.

Will YOU promise too?

(It should be noted P&O Cruises is under different management)

I crossed Dover to Calais and return a couple of weeks ago with P&O, what a terrible service, talk about going to the lowest common denominator.

 

[Coolcats]

You wouldn't be able to live

£5 per hour is near the state pension which is why the state pension should double

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