Electrical / Battery dilemma - lead acid, gel or lithium? (1 Viewer)

[Mr Mousy]

Some advice please, here is the background...
Hymer with a EBL101 electrobloc and a DT201 display. 100w solar panel. Votronic mppt 250 with connection to the EBL. Efoy 1200. 1200w pure sine inverter.

I'm sure our two year old Hancock lead acid batteries are knackered (110ah x 2) as according to the DT201 display they do not charge to 100% having been on hook up for 16 hours. A couple of nights ago the system shut down as the voltage had dropped so much (we were using an electric fan through the inverter). Even the efoy won't charge the batteries, the display shows 'check battery' which I believe means the battery voltage is so low it won't start!

We are in Greece at the moment with about two weeks until we get home, hopefully we can get by for this length of time. We've been away for 10 weeks and have been on hook up twice for 24 hours so I think we have done pretty well as we are confirmed FLT!

Our future travel plans are to be away for two or three months at a time in Europe.

When I replace the batteries would you suggest 2 x 100ah lead acid, 2 x 100ah gell or 1x 100ah lithium? If I go for the lithium I'm pretty sure I will need a supplemental Schaudt charger as the EBL puts out 14.4v at best.

A further thought is to add more solar.

My ideal outcome is never to have to look at the DT201 battery display having full confidence that all is well.

All suggestions will be appreciated.

 

[Robert Clark]

With lithium’s at £500 each it’s a no brainer in my opinion as you double your capacity and gain payload in one go.

They charge so quickly that you may not need any more solar.

You’d need to change the charging regime on your solar controller and as you say you may need a new charger, though if you look at the lithium battery thread on FUN the supplier suggests that they may be ok on a Gel setting if my memory serves me right, though please check.

 

[eddie]

I would have thought that with the efoy you shouldn't need the expense of Lithium. If your on hook up as infrequently as you are, your system seems to be working well and is a good mix. So I would replace the batteries like for like and save the capital cost of lithium

Others may disagree, I know that I sell Lithium batteries but we would rather offer sound advice rather than just flog batteries

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[funflair]

If Lithium is a straight swap without changing anything else I could see the temptation although personally I think it is still a bit new in motorhomes, so with that in mind and again as long as your chargers can handle it I would go Gel and one more solar panel.

Martin

 

[Lenny HB]

With the Efloy I would agree with Eddie stick with Gels. I am wondering why you changed to flooded cells.

If you do go for Lithium although they charge faster you have to have the power to charge them.
With their lower Perkant exponent you will get more out of your solar into them but will probably still need 400 - 500 watts to get the benefit of fast charging.
You will need another mains charger as the EBL 101 only charges at 14.2v also it's 18 amps, you really need a 40 - 50 amp charger to take advantage of the fast charging.
You will also need a B2B to charge from the Alternator.
Probably you will have to spend over a £1000 on top of the battery price to make it work properly & that's at DIY prices.

 

[bobandjanie]

First thing is to try charging one at a time, only one may be duff and that would do to get you home, then my choice would be Gels.
Good luck and safe travels. Bob.

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[canopus]

Exide Gel's Martin - depending on physical space available and not forgetting to alter your Schaudt settings to Gel, choose one/two from the attached.

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[DavidG58]

Morning Martin

I am with above few posts, your Hymer would have had Gels from new, wonder why it now hasn't?

I also wonder if the charger has been left on Gel? not sure what impact that might have, but it has different settings for a reason

We have twice now suffered a single battery failure, which then makes both weak and eventually looks like both have failed, when on one had in reality, if you can disconnect the batteries from each other and any charge input you might one has very low volts, using the good one with the amount of sun you have will easily see you home, we went to France in February a couple of years ago on one battery having identified and removed a duff one before we set off

best of luck, I am not at all convinced that the chargers do not need changing for best charging of the Lithium batteries, but we will not know for sure until just out of warranty no doubt

 

[Lenny HB]

I also wonder if the charger has been left on Gel? not sure what impact that might have, but it has different settings for a reason

Yep, if on Gel setting it will probably cook the Hankook batteries, it's OK with some of the more modern construction batteries like the Varta LDF's.

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[Robert Clark]

Another option to consider replacing 2 lead acids with a single lithium
Same capacity
Much faster charging, so better use of your solar

You can always add another later if needed

Makes it even more of a no brainer

 

[cliffanger]

Hi Martin. We don’t rate Hankooks any more as ours started to give up after two years.

I should think you’ve saved so much from not paying campsite fees in Greece to buy the most expensive batteries known to man! ? Not that I’m in any way jealous ....

 

[cliffanger]

Cliff says its probably one battery that’s down. Not sure how you’de sort it out there though. He says he would go with two Varta lead acids, as big as you could physically go.

Keep on having a lovely time xx

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[thebriars]

Another option to consider replacing 2 lead acids with a single lithium
Same capacity

Sorry! That just isn't true, unless you use statistics significantly weighted for lithium batteries.

 

[funflair]

With the Efloy I would agree with Eddie stick with Gels. I am wondering why you changed to flooded cells.

If you do go for Lithium although they charge faster you have to have the power to charge them.
With their lower Perkant exponent you will get more out of your solar into them but will probably still need 400 - 500 watts to get the benefit of fast charging.
You will need another mains charger as the EBL 101 only charges at 14.2v also it's 18 amps, you really need a 40 - 50 amp charger to take advantage of the fast charging.
You will also need a B2B to charge from the Alternator.
Probably you will have to spend over a £1000 on top of the battery price to make it work properly & that's at DIY prices.

Not sure why EFOY comes into the equation as it’s for charging where batteries are for storage.

Martin

 

[Lenny HB]

Not sure why EFOY comes into the equation as it’s for charging where batteries are for storage.

Martin

Can charge the battery day or night so effectively gives you more capacity to stay off grid.

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[funflair]

Can charge the battery day or night so effectively gives you more capacity to stay off grid.

I get that but the question was about what batteries to go for and lithium would charge at night just the same.

 

[Camping Gaza]

2x BIG lead acid for me

I wonder about all the real world practical use of lithium and longevity Vs the price at the moment as its new tech.

You got the efoy chucking out a regular 50 watts night and day, and solar. I would shove another solar on the roof if room or/and a 40 amp B2B

( unless you are so filthy rich, money is no object, and in that case I would give the MOHO away and live in 4 star hotels for the rest of my days, and buy a luxury yacht to scratch my travel itch !! )

 

[eddie]

Sorry! That just isn't true, unless you use statistics significantly weighted for lithium batteries.

Which bit don't you believe? if it is weight, your very welcome to come into our shop and pick up a Duracell battery that weighs 30kg and a Sterling Lithium battery that weighs 15Kg if you don't believe the printed blurb!

As for the depth of discharge plenty of users post reports just how pleased they are with the conversion to Lithium, me included

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[Lenny HB]

I get that but the question was about what batteries to go for and lithium would charge at night just the same.

Normally you go for Lithium for greater capacity & faster charging for a given size, Efloy tends to offset this.
OK in theory Lithium will be better all round but with the night time charging from the Efloy is it really worth the expense of Lithium given that the OP would have to spend a lot upgrading his charging methods.

 

[eddie]

Also the switch off voltage (sic) of the efoy is 14.2 VDC so wouldn't work well with Lithium

As I have stated loads of times (and got slagged off for lol) Lithium isn't the universal panacea for every situation or everyone

But, they are half the weight and give you about twice the usable capacity despite what luddites claim lol

 

[Lenny HB]

Also the switch off voltage (sic) of the efoy is 14.2 VDC so wouldn't work well with Lithium

Even more reason to stick with Gels then.

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[Robert Clark]

Even more reason to stick with Gels then.

Surely with 2 lithium batteries you’d never need the Efoy or the expensive & heavy fuel it requires?

 

[Lenny HB]

Surely with 2 lithium batteries you’d never need the Efoy or the expensive & heavy fuel it requires?

But he would need to spend over a grand upgrading his charging systems.

 

[Robert Clark]

But he would need to spend over a grand upgrading his charging systems.

I’m not sure that’s the case
The guy who’s selling the lithium batteries suggested a Gel (I think) charging profile would be ok for lithium

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[Robert Clark]

But he would need to spend over a grand upgrading his charging systems.

This is the post that talks about charging Lenny

100AH Lithium Battery £500

Has anyone bitten the bullet ?? Ukbandit Graham has recently had Lithium leisure batteries fitted to his MH. He may also be able to give feedback at some stage. :) Cheers, Jock. :)

www.motorhomefun.co.uk

 

[thebriars]

Which bit don't you believe? if it is weight, your very welcome to come into our shop and pick up a Duracell battery that weighs 30kg and a Sterling Lithium battery that weighs 15Kg if you don't believe the printed blurb!

As for the depth of discharge plenty of users post reports just how pleased they are with the conversion to Lithium, me included

Not the weight, your stated that a lithium battery has double the capacity. It doesn't.

 

[eddie]

Not the weight, your stated that a lithium battery has double the capacity. It doesn't.

Did I? really? you seem unsure about things!

Putting aside that I didn't post that and I suggested that the OP didn't buy Lithium, what depth of discharge would you agree that Lithium batteries can be regularly taken to?

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[jdk62]

Forgive my ignorance, but can you just do a straight forward swap from a lead or gel battery with an equivalent rated Lithium battery (with built in BMS)?

 

[Mr Mousy]

cliffandger

Hi Martin. We don’t rate Hankooks any more as ours started to give up after two years.

Now you tell me!
I bought them on your recommendation... about two years ago!

To console myself I'm chilling out with a beer and this view.

Oh and its 40 degrees in the shade.

Thank you all for your advice so far.

 

[thebriars]

Did I? really? you seem unsure about things!

Putting aside that I didn't post that and I suggested that the OP didn't buy Lithium, what depth of discharge would you agree that Lithium batteries can be regularly taken to?

Perhaps you ought to refer back to my original response. It was another poster who claimed lithium had double the capacity. I did note your earlier comment about not suggesting lithium for the OP, and I appreciate there are several factors which can make a lithium more suitable such as weight and charge/discharge rates. I don't doubt that lithium can be deeply discharged, though much depends on the quality of the battery and any electronics inside.

However, when we come to capacity, its simply wrong to say a lithium battery has double the capacity. Its far more complicated than that as I'm sure you are aware. One manufacturer puts it very well:

FACT: A single lithium battery lasts 10 times longer than its lead acid counterpart. The life span of batteries is measured in cycles – how many times a battery can be drained and recharged before it needs to be replaced. Flooded lead acid and VRLA batteries offer around 400-500 cycles at 80% DOD (depth of discharge) and lithium offers 5000-10000 cycles at 80% DOD. If you cycled your lithium battery once a day, it would offer more than 14 years of life, while the competition lasts less than two years. The initial cost of lithium is worth the long-term value.

When one considers how many times one would discharge a battery down to 80% in a year, for the vast majority of us, lithium simply isn't cost effective yet. I probably cycle my battery less than once a week, so a lifespan of 5-6 years is fine by me, thats probably how long I will keep the van, but why would I want a battery that lasted 70 years?

If money was no object, yes I'd fit them for the other advantages, but I can think of better uses for my money at the moment.

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