Confused over new leisure battery (1 Viewer)

[Ingwe]

We currently have a Varta LS105 leisure battery. The battery is marked 105 Ah (c20). I understood that the 105Ah referred to the battery's capacity being 105 amp/hours. Clearly more amp/hours the better. But when I looked up getting a replacement, the Varta LS105 is shown as being 5h [Ah] 85.

Can anyone please explain what the 105Ah (c20) means and what the 5h[Ah] 85 refers to?
Thanks

 

[hilldweller]

If you put a load on it that will drain it in 20 hours you get 105Ah but if you increase the load to drain it in 5 hours you get only 85Ah.

And much much worse if you hit it with The Hairdryer.

 

[Ingwe]

@hilldweller-thanks. I think I understand.
So I should look for a battery with more than 105Ah so long as it will physically fit in the battery box? It would be useful to see a spread sheet of different leisure batteries showing their charging rates and the amp/hours delivered at a given load, say 5hours. Then one could compare.
Am minded to stick with Varta but not really sure about the criteria to apply. Bit of a minefield.

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[andy63]

Not sure if this will help but a batteries amp hour rate is governed by the rate at whichurch it is discharged...
Normally the standard is stated at the 20 hr rate for leisure batteries... that allows us to compare their capacities ....so a 105 ah battery at the 20 hour rate indicates the battery is capable of lasting 20 hrs while been discharged at 5.25 amps..
That same battery discharged at a higher rate than 5.25 amps
Will have a lower amp hour rating... so 85ah at a 5 hr rate indicates the battery will last 5 hrs if discharged at 17 amps...ie 85 ÷5..
Hope that' right and hope it helps..
Andy

 

[funflair]

Number 1 it has to fit the space, number 2 as heavy as possible for the physical size, after that it's just a choice flooded, sealed, sealed AGM or Gel.

Martin

 

[Stealaway]

Varta are a top quality battery - only buy genuine battery makers batteries. There is so much crap out there with fancy stickers.
If you buy the same battery you will have a better chance of being able to fasten it down and don't forget the breather if its inside.

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[hilldweller]

So I should look for a battery with more than 105Ah so long as it will physically fit in the battery box?

The more the better. But you are right, all sorts of claims out there. I noticed when shopping last time you get the same physical side and a wide variation in Ah rated. Varta were low, so apart from it being reputed firm I thought they were the honest ones.

So you have a good 50Ah pulling 5A = 10 hours, question is, can you live with that. We manage 2 or 3 days on that battery but a couple of weeks ago in Southport our 100W solar had us topped up by mid day each day, in the winter, so some heat and some TV did not use much at all.

 

[pappajohn]

The 5a and 20a rating is more EU meddling.
It could say 105amp rating = 1 hour.
It's still a 105ah battery just as it was before the European clowns stuck their nose in.

 

[Lenny HB]

We manage 2 or 3 days on that battery but a couple of weeks ago in Southport our 100W solar had us topped up by mid day each day, in the winter, so some heat and some TV did not use much at all.

Sorry that is just not possible to do that as this time year you would need at least a 1000 watts of solar.

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[Ingwe]

I should try and work out what we draw. All our lights save one fluorescent light are LED, we run the fridge on gas and a tv for about 4 hours a day. And some heat during the cold days.
We have a 120watt (I think) solar panel. So I think we'll be ok with a 105ah but will see if we can get a 110 or 120 from Varta that will fit in the space provided.

 

[tonyidle]

The 5a and 20a rating is more EU meddling.
It could say 105amp rating = 1 hour.
It's still a 105ah battery just as it was before the European clowns stuck their nose in.

No it isn't - it has always been the case. A reputable manufacturer can always provide Ah capacity at various loadings but the standard, unless otherwise stated on the battery, is the 20 hour rate.

 

[Nigel&Debbie]

Sorry that is just not possible to do that as this time year you would need at least a 1000 watts of solar.

We live full time off grid. We normally spend winters in Spain / Portugal, however due to a certain man wearing a red & white suit and our grand kids, I am sat in a field in rural Oxfordshire.

We have 200w of solar panels angled to the sun, and a further 100w flat on roof of van. We have and are managinging to keep batteries full with little problem. I am even writing this message whilst phone is charging and I have a light on

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[The2i's]

I found the information in this recently written article to be the most helpful and ended up buying Varta LFD batteries - http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/battery-technology.php

 

[funflair]

The aandn article suggests that the Varta and Bosch batteries are sealed to a point that they don't need to be fitted with vent tubes when used in habitation areas, how many people use these batteries in a habitation area without adequate external venting.

Martin

 

[Lenny HB]

The aandn article suggests that the Varta and Bosch batteries are sealed to a point that they don't need to be fitted with vent tubes when used in habitation areas, how many people use these batteries in a habitation area without adequate external venting.

Martin

If a battery is capable of having a vent tube fitted always wise to fit one, the manufacture would not engineer in a vent into the battery if it was not required. It is also recommended to vent most AGM's Hymer do on the ones they fit. Gels don't have vent tubs but even they have a vent valve that can blow in extream circumstances.

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[PhilandMena]

Although there is a defined international standard for lead acid 'Starter batteries' (IEC 60095-2:2009). There is no such standard national or international, for Leisure batteries and this IMO is the main reason why the leisure battery market place is full of mislabeled batteries that are fundamentally crap. When looking for a leisure battery there are some features one should look for to get an idea of how the battery should perform.

1. Capacity. I.e. 110AH (as measured by the 20Hr amp rate)

n order to get an AH rating, the battery that is being tested has to be drained down to 0 over the course of a specified amount of time. The amount of amperage that it took to get it down to zero, over that specified amount of time constitutes the AH rating. Because of the Peukert effect (aka, The faster a battery is drained, the less overall amperage is available), if you discharge a battery over the course of 100 hours, the AH rating looks higher that if you discharge that same battery over the course of 1 hour. So, there has to be a standard. For deep cycle batteries the standard rating is 20 hours. So, if a battery has a rating of 100AH @ 20 Hr rate, then that battery was discharged over 20 hours with a 5 amp load. Starting batteries on the other hand, are typically rated at 10Hr rate, because they are used faster, so the 20Hr rate is not as important. So, that weird 20Hr rate that you see after the AH rating on batteries, that tells you that the rating in question is the realistic, common rating; rather than an over-inflated number to make the battery look better than it really is.


2. Number of cycles at a given DOD (Depth Of Discharge)
It is general practice to market leisure batteries with some indication of the number of cycles that the battery can achieve at 50% state of charge. By design, increasing the number of cycles given by a battery (life and durability, rather than start-ability) involves the following:

• Adding more lead, generally using higher density active material during plate construction
• Using expensive materials designed to operate the cell packs at a higher pressure (whilst maintaining acid between the plates)

Conventional lead acid leisure batteries are considered to meet the demands of entry level to mid-range applications. Subject to the application, a durability range of 70 to 360 cycles @ 50% DOD is common.

Finally, there has been some independent testing of leisure batteries undertaken by the NCC and results classified accordingly.
http://www.thencc.org.uk/our_schemes/ncc_verified_leisure_battery_scheme.aspx

 

[Kool Kroozer]

I recently (couple of weeks ago) replaced our x2 leisure batteries (unbranded cheap off eBay) that were sealed and told by the seller to remove the stopper caps as they are only fitted for transportation purposes, so for nearly 2 yrs they have had no vent tube attached to them, but the replacements (x2 LFD 90 Varta) also had no vent tubes supplied with them, i asked the guy in the shop if these Varta Batteries have to be vented and i was told "No" he said they are sealed an maintenance free - I even replied "are you 100% sure of that ?" and "Yes" came the reply... But after all the questions, i have fitted vent tubes to both and fed them through the floor to the outside - only because i have read so many times on here (FUN) that its the best thing to do - so you read one thing at one place an hear the opposite from somewhere else - its no wonder folk get confused over leisure batteries

 

[The2i's]

......same as the above 3 or 4 posts, belt & braces - I fitted vent tubes to my LFD 90's to be on the safe side.
I found further interesting reading from a and n about AGM batteries after my Banner AGM failed after a year. http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/agm-batteries.php

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[PhilandMena]

only because i have read so many times on here (FUN) that its the best thing to do - so you read one thing at one place an hear the opposite from somewhere else - its no wonder folk get confused over leisure batteries

Yes! There's a load of experts on here, some of them even know what they're talking about.

 

[Infinity31]

Old habits die hard!

Modern sealed maintenance free lead acid batteries do not need to be vented, the risk is a theoretical one rather than any real likelyhood of it ever happening, but of course you can if you so wish.

 

[hilldweller]

Sorry that is just not possible to do that as this time year you would need at least a 1000 watts of solar.

No problem, I lie and fantesize all the time in here.

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[funflair]

Old habits die hard!

Modern sealed maintenance free lead acid batteries do not need to be vented, the risk is a theoretical one rather than any real likelyhood of it ever happening, but of course you can if you so wish.

But what then happens if they get overcharged or something goes wrong inside and why do they give you a hole for a vent tube if they don't need one, I do agree though when everything is working as it should they don't need a vent tube.

Martin

 

[hilldweller]

why do they give you a hole for a vent tube
Martin

Standard moulding. The question is, is the hole actually all the way through.

 

[funflair]

Standard moulding. The question is, is the hole actually all the way through.

I believe Yes, the guy from aandn was pulled up on out and about forum and said that yes you should really vent the Varta and Bosch batteries just in case they go wrong.

Martin

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[Infinity31]

But what then happens if they get overcharged or something goes wrong inside and why do they give you a hole for a vent tube if they don't need one, I do agree though when everything is working as it should they don't need a vent tube.

Martin

Yes, what does happen? I guess if you really searched you might find an example, but in reality you stand more chance of sustaining serious injury or death from simply driving a MH than from not fitting a vent tube.

I think the hole is actually a relief valve not a vent, spitting hairs I know, but if it was so important that a tube is fitted then why don't manufactures build one in?

Just want to add a little perspective, no saying don't fit one but fit if you wish.

 

[funflair]

Yes, what does happen? I guess if you really searched you might find an example, but in reality you stand more chance of sustaining serious injury or death from simply driving a MH than from not fitting a vent tube.

I think the hole is actually a relief valve not a vent, spitting hairs I know, but if it was so important that a tube is fitted then why don't manufactures build one in?

Just want to add a little perspective, no saying don't fit one but fit if you wish.

A relief valve is a vent where I come from from, and a vent of nasty dangerous gases should go to atmosphere.

I don't care either way at the end of the day as we have Gel's and they have no vents.

Martin

 

[Lenny HB]

No problem, I lie and fantesize all the time in here.

No offence intended Brian, based my comment on my own experience.
I live on the south coast which will get a bit more output from solar panels than Southport, and at this time of year on a fairly good day I might achive 10a/h from my 200 watts of panels on a very good day with wall to wall sunshine 12-15 a/h, on a typical day hardly anything. A couple of weeks ago we were away and only had the TV on for a couple of hours and not a lot of heating we were still using using getting on for 30a/h a day.

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[hilldweller]

No offence intended Brian, based my comment on my own experience.

And I quoted exactly what happened in Southport. If I wanted to take offence I'd go back to facts, this is FUN.

We went out for a meal each night, came home and watched a film off the USB hard drive. Heating on. The BM1 dropped half way down the scale. Heating off overnight. By midday(ish) bar graph back to the top.

We are talking only 3A for a couple of hours.

 

[Ingwe]

Following the posts with interest. As was said by a judge during a trial (before I retired) "I am none the wiser!" to which the barrister replied, "no, your honour, but you're better informed!"

Have decided to get the same Varta as fitted (LS105, 105Ah) after trawling what's available and realising that Ah alone is not the key. Any recommendations for the supplier?

 

[Jaws]

Maintenance free sealed lead acid batteries have an internal section fitted with a bladder that absorbs the gas expansion and releases it back into the electrolytic upon contraction
It is (Valve Regulated Lead Acid) and the battery is permanently sealed so never needs refilling.
This is not particularly new .. certainly a lot of motorcycle batteries have been like that for 20+ years and do not have any sort of venting tube or breather... The most common I have used ( and actually still have in stock ) is the YTX12-BS

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