Confused lithium batteries?

[colyboy]

Totally confused by what suppliers “state” about lithium batteries!

Two main statements made by them is

a. “Our batteries can be just dropped in to replace your old battery”

b. “With our batteries will need a BMS and an extra so an so plus another so and so and price keeps going up.

can they be just dropped in or not?

Colyboy

 

[Robert Clark]

A) in my opinion not really
They ideally need a charger suited to Lithium

b) Relion lithium batteries have a built in BMS. Been very pleased with ours

 

[Ingwe]

A) in my opinion not really
They ideally need a charger suited to Lithium

b) Relion lithium batteries have a built in BMS. Been very pleased with ours

And a BMS is? I too am confused as some suppliers do suggest you can just swap lead acid for a lithium without any additional gear.

 

[Two on Tour]

a. A drop in replacement will (should) already contain within the casing of the battery as BMS (battery management system) and ideally as Robert Clark says should have all the existing battery chargers in the van (EHU,solar and B2B) capable of running a lithium charging cycle although some manufacturers claim they can be charged without a specific lithium charging option on a charger.

b. Is likely to be just lithium cells within a casing which will require an addition of a BMS to control and manage the requirements of the lithium cells and maybe other additional equipment depending on the application the lithium batteries are going into.

 

[Two on Tour]

And a BMS is

A BMS controls the state of each individual lithium cell within the battery, normally to keep the cells at the same voltage (in balance), control the charging of each cell to keep them in balance, to shut off the charge for over and under battery voltage limits, and shut down the battery output if the battery overheats or if the battery temperature drop to low as the battery can be terminally damage if the cells fall to 0 degrees C.
Most BMS's perform other functions but those are the main functions of a BMS.

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[colyboy]

Thanks for your replies. We do a spent a lot of time off grid mainly in the winter. We of course use the heating and our TV we would also like use other products via inverter.

colyboy

 

[Robert Clark]

And a BMS is? I too am confused as some suppliers do suggest you can just swap lead acid for a lithium without any additional gear.

The BMS is a battery management system which manages the battery

 

[eddie]

Totally confused by what suppliers “state” about lithium batteries!

Two main statements made by them is

a. “Our batteries can be just dropped in to replace your old battery”

b. “With our batteries will need a BMS and an extra so an so plus another so and so and price keeps going up.

can they be just dropped in or not?

Colyboy

No

 

[Ingwe]

So the charger currently fitted to the motorhome we have which charges lead acid batteries probably won't work with lithium battery. Some lithium batteries may or may not come with a BMS but if they do, how does this relate to the existing charger? Cam the existing charger be easily separated from the distribution box in which the existing charger is located?
I don't intend to hi-jack this thread so move this post or ignore it.
But to the non-technical of those of us, the sellers of lithium batteries still have a way to go to make clear whether their products actually offer anything other than more expense.

 

[pappajohn]

a battery management system which manages the battery

Gerraway.... Who'd have thought that.

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[TinaLes]

Deleted, just in time, thankfully.
Les

 

[Jim]

Lithiums out AGM's back in
Interesting if not very long winded story( you will need patience or like me use the forwarding bar) from a full time you tube vlogger, on why having spent thousands his Victron Lithiums and BMU along with recommended split charger didn't work.
He did get a full refund though, and have gone back to AGM's
Interesting scenario?, what are your thoughts on anything he did wrong, or that you have done differently if you are happy with Lithiums in Moho use.
LES

Yes you will need patience. And large measures of salt.

 

[Jim]

Lithium batteries - what do you make of this ?

I'm using a lithium battery setup and to date have not experienced the problems that John in the video has set out. You guys that are running a lithium set up recognise these problems or are happy running lithium ?, interested to hear your views.

www.motorhomefun.co.uk

 

[TinaLes]

deleted post

 

[Wissel]

Must admit to being sceptical about most LiFePO4 dealer claims.

I remember 18 months ago when I ordered mine, learning about them was a minefield. So different from the usual.

Don't charge too much (not full), don't let them get too low (kill them early), correct charge voltage (Amps not really an issue, greedy little things), watch ambient temps, etc,etc....

I ended buying an £800 charger to do all I'd read, plus smart relays (controlled by BMS).

Don't get me wrong, a great purchase (so far) for us. We know exactly how much power we have, tiny voltage drop on high loads and much faster charging (more efficient). Will be interesting in a few years to see if I went OTT or some of these claims were real...

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[eddie]

I have also read from dick heads that they believe the world is flat.

This merits consideration because it’s on the internet, and despite all evidence to the contrary, being on the internet makes it Gospel!

I’ll add this to the internet then

Wales will beat the All Blacks in the 2023 Rugby World Cup final in Paris

It’s on the internet so it’s true?

 

[eddie]

Totally confused by what suppliers “state” about lithium batteries!

Two main statements made by them is

a. “Our batteries can be just dropped in to replace your old battery”

b. “With our batteries will need a BMS and an extra so an so plus another so and so and price keeps going up.

can they be just dropped in or not?

Colyboy

i am also confused by the continuing questions people ask

The answer still in NO

 

[Ingwe]

The answer still in NO

Not 42?

 

[funflair]

We are having LiFePO4 on our new van and they will be part of a fully integrated system, BUT if I was looking at adding a small amount to an existing set up I would be inclined to talk to somebody like SUPER B who list the Epsilon battery as a direct replacement but then have another range that needs a dedicated charger, the Epsilon has different cells to the Nomia range and different characteristics, they must have done that for a reason

Lithium Iron Phosphate RV Batteries

Lithium iron phosphate RV batteries deliver everything you need when travelling on- and off-the-grid. They are pretty much unbeatable. Find out more

www.super-b.com

Martin

 

[Pausim]

the battery can be terminally damage if the cells fall to 0 degrees C.

My Relion LiFePO4 battery needs to be charged at a much lower rate below freezing but the battery can be stored and used down to -20ºC.

The Battery Management System (BMS) performs the following functions:
• Low Voltage Protection – Automatically disconnects at 8V
• Over Voltage Protection – Automatically disconnects at 15.8V
• Short Circuit Protection – Automatically disconnects
• Reverse Polarity Protection – Automatically disconnects
• Internal cell balancing – Automatically balances cells
• Charge Balancing – Independent balancing for batteries connected in parallel and/or series.

However the BMS does not control the charging voltages between 8V and 15.8V, this is the function of the charger. The BMS is there to protect the cells from extremes and balance them but it does not take over the charging so you do need to make sure your charger works within the parameters specified by the battery manufacturer. I suspect that some sellers that claim their Li batteries are “drop in” replacements do not understand the BMS function.

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[PeteH]

By my reckoning, this is the 3rd or 4th posting on the subject since just before Xmas?. Any chance we can get the information integrated?. I fully appreciate that this (relatively) new tech, needs thorough appraisal. So it would be helpful if it where in one place?.

 

[TobyQuest]

The Battery Management system (BMS) sits INSIDE the housing of the lithium battery. Inside the housing is pretty much only the lithium cylindrical cells (although some use pouch type cells) and the BMS.
As far as I know nearly all 12v Lithium Iron batteries LiFePo4 can be used as a drop in replacement for a lead acid or sealed lead acid battery.
You can charge them to 100% and run them right down to eg 10-15% without damaging and the best thing is the number of times you can charge it (charge cycle life) is around 10 times better than lead acid, almost double the capacity and also half the weight, but also more than double the price.

 

[poppycamper]

Agree with most what you say apart from charge to 100%.... yes you can but that degrades battery quicker.. better to keep between 15/85% or even better 20/80%

 

[Two on Tour]

The Battery Management system (BMS) sits INSIDE the housing of the lithium battery. Inside the housing is pretty much only the lithium cylindrical cells (although some use pouch type cells) and the BMS.
As far as I know nearly all 12v Lithium Iron batteries LiFePo4 can be used as a drop in replacement for a lead acid or sealed lead acid battery.
You can charge them to 100% and run them right down to eg 10-15% without damaging and the best thing is the number of times you can charge it (charge cycle life) is around 10 times better than lead acid, almost double the capacity and also half the weight, but also more than double the price.

Well, you pretty much managed to get most of those statements wrong, as they say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

 

[Two on Tour]

My Relion LiFePO4 battery needs to be charged at a much lower rate below freezing but the battery can be stored and used down to -20ºC.

Yes agree, you can draw from a LifePo4 below freezing which as with all battery types will be at a lower rate due to the cold, but as you say it is the charging at these temperatures that is the problem.
I'm sure there are LifePo4 chargers and BMS's out there that will accommodate this low temperature requirement, but on the whole the LifePo4 chargers, BMS and solar chargers I have come across do not have this function hence I have my lithium battery set with a 4 degree shutdown and a heat mat set to come on when the battery temperature drops to 6 degrees.

My statement of "the battery can be terminally damage if the cells fall to 0 degrees C." was based on the low temperature charging which on hindsight I should have indicated.

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[colyboy]

I started this thread week ago and thank you all your response.

I AM STILL CONFUSED,

One “expert” says its OK !

Another “expert” says “NO you will kill yourself and burn down your MH”. !

Members on here contradict each other how can anyone make a decision?

confused Colyboy

 

[Wh05apk]

I started this thread week ago and thank you all your response.

I AM STILL CONFUSED,

One “expert” says its OK !

Another “expert” says “NO you will kill yourself and burn down your MH”. !

Members on here contradict each other how can anyone make a decision?

confused Colyboy

This is why you need professional advice, not from well meaning posters on here, just because someone has done something their way and got away with it so far, doesn't mean it is the correct way to do it.

 

[DBK]

I'm waiting for lithium sulphur batteries.

 

[eddie]

I started this thread week ago and thank you all your response.

I AM STILL CONFUSED,

One “expert” says its OK !

Another “expert” says “NO you will kill yourself and burn down your MH”. !

Members on here contradict each other how can anyone make a decision?

confused Colyboy

colyboy you keep staring threads asking the same question.

So, do you have a link to a battery manufacturer that produces a “drop in” Lithoum battery, that makes you make you think there is?

That would help us understand your confusion

Every battery manufacturer that has approached us (Van Bitz) to date suggesting that their Lithium batteries are “drop in” replacements have caveats suggesting that they are drop in providing that the charger is compatible, having a Lithium profile, and, if connection to a DC source is required that a suitable DC - DC charger is fitted.

Not all Lithium batteries made are intended for the motorhome market, the motorhome market being so small

We stock Lithium batteries by Victron, Sterling and Dometic and none will operate safely or correctly with a split charge relay or a lead acid profiled conventional battery charger.

 

[PeteH]

I am not in the market for Lithium batts anyway, having 2 GELS approaching only 2 years old, with the expectation of at least 3 more!. Just curious as to the requirements for the correct use and maintenance. For the sort of "work" I give them, by way of my needs, I would not be looking to put well over a grand into the M-H by way of Battery and charging devices. However for someone who maybe spends much time "wilding" I can see the attraction. and of course the overall installation cost would be offset by less need to use EHU, assuming charging to be a function of alternator and solar, rather than EHU.

It would appear that there is still a lot of uncertainty as to the best way of power/charging management. Perhaps as I indicated earlier, those threads we have had in recent weeks could be some-way merged?. or brought together in a separate "forum".?

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