Lithium batteries - what do you make of this ?

Two on Tour

Two on Tour

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I'm using a lithium battery setup and to date have not experienced the problems that John in the video has set out.

You guys that are running a lithium set up recognise these problems or are happy running lithium ?, interested to hear your views.

 
I don't know the guy, but sounds like a bad setup? or a faulty Li battery. something definitely not right with his install.
 
Odd, I need to watch it properly. But does he think his Victron Battery Monitor has something to do with the charging of his batteries?
 
He does seem to lay the blame with pretty well all of the setup he has for lithium.

I have a similar setup to him other than I built my own 240 Ah battery pack and my mains charger is a 20 amp Victron Blue Smart charger and I also have a Victron Battery Protect for low voltage cut off.

A couple of things spring to mind. For one thing I do regularly check my battery percentage/voltage and don't let it get to a critical state where as he would seem to imply that he expects his system to be fit and forget.
For a battery monitor to work correctly, EVERYTHING going in and out of the battery (load and charger) has to go through the shunt and if you don't the battery monitor can not correctly calculate the battery state and the battery monitor has to be set with the correct value for lithium, has he ?
I would be interested in what he has the temperature cutoff set at as I got caught out the other week when the temperature dropped and disconnected the battery.
I had left it at the default 5 degrees and as it was the first time since fitting a heat mat to stop the battery getting too cold the thermostat needed tweaking.
 
Lithium’s are not for every one. Folk are stuck on lead habits, and needs a good understanding to make a success of it. Besides we see one side of the story.
There is a combination of factors involved there, from mismatched components, user error, shoddy advice and install etc. If he is happy and comfortable with LA then that’s what he should use.
I use both in different installations and I can say hands down, that, Lithium is by far superior to LA. Partial state of charge, opportunistic charging, high charge and discharge rates that LA can’t even come close.
But each to their own I guess.

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I bet he has not set up the right parameters in the bmv relating to Li. For ex. Peukert effect 1, charge efficiency, charged voltage, tail current, etc.
Also he overcharged until bms disconnected to protect the battery from abuse. Then reconnected when conditions came stable within bms parameters. Also , was the ehu charger set up correctly? If can’t be then a suitable charger needs to be fitted.
Sub 0 you can’t charge but, you can discharge up to 0.1C no problem, I’ve done it many times.
From low voltage cell , you need to bring them up with low current till they can take high rate. From 3.15vpc you can chuck a good 0,2- 0,3C charge no probs.
 
Na he sounded pretty switched on (hurr hurr) about what the BMV does but didn't have enough talent to understand the actual fault he clearly had, so the conclusion of "Lithium are crap" is off base by a mile.

Quite why you'd spend that amount of money and then not get to the bottom of the problem but instead "throw the baby out with the bathwater" and refit AGM is mind boggling.
But hey, he got his money back at least.
 
Two on Tour
Do you charge your LFP from alternator?
I don’t like the Cyrix Li , I cant set the voltages I like. I don’t charge to full or discharge my pack to low. I use max 70% of the pack and I got 400ah on the van. Sterling doesn’t offer a user input like victron does.
I might fit a Orion dc-dc isolated so I can set the voltages I like.
 
Jim said:
Odd, I need to watch it properly. But does he think his Victron Battery Monitor has something to do with the charging of his batteries?
Click to expand...
Yup that confused me somewhat? Why would a battery monitor control a cut off relay? That is a feature that should be part of the BMS?
If your battery monitor disconnects the battery when it gets low, how do you charge the battery? Catch 22.
 
Raul said:
Two on Tour
Do you charge your LFP from alternator?
I don’t like the Cyrix Li , I cant set the voltages I like. I don’t charge to full or discharge my pack to low. I use max 70% of the pack and I got 400ah on the van. Sterling doesn’t offer a user input like victron does.
I might fit a Orion dc-dc isolated so I can set the voltages I like.
Click to expand...

Yes indirectly via a Sterling BB1260 B2B, but I manually switch the B2B on and off as I see fit with a switch on the dash.

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He kept saying several thousands for lithium batteries which also made it sound like he has had his leg lifted somewhat?
 
The BMS internally fitted in the battery SHOULD have a charge wire that will accept a charge IN but not allow current drain OUT.
I have no idea what he was blathering on about, I'd need to see a wiring diagram to make sense of it I think.
 
Gromett said:
If your battery monitor disconnects the battery when it gets low, how do you charge the battery? Catch 22.
Click to expand...

You normally have to disconnect the battery negative, leave for a short period and then reconnect the negative to reset the BMS.
I'm using an external BMS, so it may well be different for a battery with a built in BMS.
 
Two on Tour said:
You normally have to disconnect the battery negative, leave for a short period and then reconnect the negative to reset the BMS.
Click to expand...
I am not on about resetting the BMS. I was talking at the BMV the Victron battery monitoring system.
 
I am not getting too involved in this conversation, simply because too much is unknown and none of us can make reasonable assumptions about the situation.
But something is not right there?

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You can set the bmv relay to disconnect loads at low voltage, LVD or cut off charge supply at high voltage HVD. Depends how is set up. Or you can set the bmv relay at a specific percentage charge to turn on a surplus load, like water heater if you got excess solar. Is all down to design. Bms is a last resort protection and in normal operation should not be activated. Is there as a fail safe. If your bms intervenes, then you are operating outside parameters and putting strain on your system.
 
and I've found them on Alpha batteries website (where he bought them) at £799
 
HandyAndy said:
and I've found them on Alpha batteries website (where he bought them) at £799
Click to expand...
2 x £799 is not several thousand, it is not even a couple of thousand.
 
Gromett said:
2 x £799 is not several thousand, it is not even a couple of thousand.
Click to expand...
Don't shoot the messenger ?
Maybe he's including the charger, the mppt, the cyrix, the temp sensor, the BMV and the cables and cut off switches in that, easily another £400 there to make £2k
 
I have been using lithium and a Victron BMV for nearly 2 years now and have not had any problems.

Changing the default settings from lead acid to LiFePO4 is easy but it does not auto detect the battery type. I have seen a battery shunt wired up wrongly (inverter direct to the battery) and the shunt can only monitor currents that are passing through it so it was missing the biggest load.

I have only had time to watch a small part of the video but ....................
 
What diagram? The way was cobbled together is good that he didn’t burn anything. Good job they put a bms inside.

Does anyone seen/ know what cells relion uses on their packs?

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HandyAndy said:
and I've found them on Alpha batteries website (where he bought them) at £799
Click to expand...
I think those don't have the inbuilt BMS. I think the ones he has are 120Ah with inbuilt BMS, priced at £1299.99 each.

Looks like the 'drop-in replacement' claim in the description is a tad optimistic. I couldn't follow exactly what he was saying about the BMS and the BMV, and suspect he occasionally mixed them up. A cautionary tale indeed.
 
People who put up videos like that really bug me. He doesn't really understand what he has bought or how to use it, he has taken the word of the salesmen and not bothered to do his own research before spending more than a couple of grand.
Then he puts up a video blaming everyone else, on top of that he video's the inside of his van for the world to see with junk lying everywhere, IMO he must have a screw loose.
 
Wow......……. where on earth did this advise come from?! Oh let me think, the manufacturer's of the batteries maybe :unsure: (seeing far too much of this just lately).
I really haven't the time to completely pull this video apart, but here's some of the Main factors I've taken from this that are total nonsense;
  • Lithium is in no way a simple "drop in" replacement. Anyone having lithium should undergo some sort of consultation to find out the van's specifications and equally the customers uses/expectations. The amount of times I have had manufacturers knock on our doors offering Li and saying they're drop in replacements, only for us to pull them apart on their claims...………….. I'm slowly loosing count!! Lithium has a completely different charge regime, so has to be respected,
  • Using a Victron BMV712 does work with Li...……….. when programmed correctly. Where's the evidence that he has altered things like the Pewkert/efficiency/return settings as clearly laid down in the manuals?! Also the reason his readings were irregular is if the power is cut-off to the BMV, it has to be re-calibrated meaning the batteries have to be fully charged again (say a minimum of 12hrs),
  • Why make the necessary modifications to the van for Lithium, then go back to conventional batteries? If he'd got the correct advise in the first place, be would have modified the DC-DC charging and upgraded his mains charger to suit his Li before then actually fitting the correct gear, only to go back to conventional batteries????? A DC-DC charger has to be used all the time to make sure the correct Absorb and float voltages are maintained, so for you guys switching them on an off manually...…… I wouldn't!!!
  • Using batteries with built-in BMS have to be wired in a way that you have no conflictions between each BMS when using high capacity inverters, or you can get a premature BMS shut-down (this allows both the BMS to handle High capacity discharge, rather than one seeing the high discharge first then shutting down early, causing the other to shut down, as it's been genuinely overloaded). The battery install has to be a balanced one. I.e when using Victron's Blue Smart Batteries, the Ve-BUS BMS is connected to the entire bank and one BMS does all, compared to Sterling AL's (along with others), which have built-in BMS which the install then has to ensure a balanced discharge and charge set-up.
  • One statement that came out of his mouth that is true, some of the Li on the market isn't designed for road use. To ensure that it is, The Lithium should carry the E-Marking for Road use approval (Victron and Sterling both have this mark). Sadly most that is on the market doesn't, as as he quite rightly says is designed for other purposes like golf carts and in my findings, things like shepherd huts etc.
Same with Lenny HB , little annoyed with the video somewhat!!!
 
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I have now watched a bit more of the video and I think Lenny HB and nickvanbitz are being polite about it. At one point in this video he says he hopes to “educate people a little”, which probably means he is well intentioned. However I fear that he is achieving exactly the opposite.

It is difficult to see from the video how he has wired his Victron BMV shunt. It looks like he has only a single connection to one end, running from the MPPT solar controller. I am not even sure it is the right end for the load. The instructions clearly show that all the load negatives should go to one end of the BMV (not direct to the battery) and that the other end of the BMV shunt is the only connection to the battery negative. If it is not wired properly it will not work properly and it is my suspicion that is the route of the problem.

He now seems happy that his AGM batteries are performing better but his system has been rewired and new kit added. I have no problems at all with my Relion LiFePO4 battery and Victron BMV, they work well together. Don’t be put off by this video.

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