appeal from liverpool marina to allow motorhome parking (1 Viewer)

[barsteward]

[QUOTE="barsteward, post: 2931231, member: 33

Yes, but not for much longer I suspect

Why ?
N 53.43442 W 3.07388 [/QUOTE]
Broken Link Removed

 

[Paddywack]

As a marina operator, who has also used Liverpool Marina in the past, I've followed this thread with interest. I would love to offer overnight parking, the constraints are a limited parking space - 400 odd berths, 60 spaces, fill those spaces with Motorhomes and I have 340 angry boatowners paying £3000+ a year with no where to park. On balance I'll pass on the £3000 a year for a £10 a night - it just doesn't add up.

 

[scotjimland]

I think you can park and stay st Kings Dock

have you stopped there ?

the only reference to motorhome parking I can find is on 'Search for sites.'

there is no mention on the Kings Dock web site and the parking notice board says "Coach Park Only" ..

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.394...4!1sdjovZ9YwaPFJwacrS2qo2w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

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[PeteH]

Reasons 1
The proposal is considered unacceptable. Based on the requirements of local and national planning policy the proposal is considered to have a materially adverse impact upon the character and appearance of the area and the living environment and conditions of the surrounding residential apartments contrary to Policies E6, E8 and HD18 of the Liverpool UDP and the overarching principles of the National Planning Policy Framework.

Or more likely someone on the council has a vested interest.

I favour the second one, The Noise and Nuscience from the Marina is far likely to be worse than that from half a dozen or so "Overnighters". Most of whom with be trying to get a few hours kip before moving elsewhere, not going on the raving "p*ss"

its what happens when you get greedy and start involving "officials"

Seconded!. "they" only love the "Status quo". anything else it beyond their comprehension!.

in fact presumably you can sleep on the boats 10 foot away but not in a van

. Of course?. the "Boaty" lot are perceived as "nicer" people, not "Trailer Trash".

I will also back the Marina in this. Direct link is :- https://acp.planninginspectorate.gov.uk/ViewCase.aspx?caseid=3203773 .

Done. I already had a presence ont he Govt web site having been involved with a case earlier this year, that was an objection and was subsequently withdrawn.

Text of my Support:-

Att: Mr Mr Sean Ernsting.

My support for this application is on the grounds that short term facilities of this type and proximity to places of recreation and interest are in notoriously short supply. That it will benefit Road Safety, merely by allowing a visitor time to recover and be fresher and more alert after the physical stresses of a long day of sight seeing / shopping / visiting entertainment venues etc:. It is also very likely that those who avail themselves of such a facility, are far more likely to support the local economy, rather than had they just visited for the day and moved on. It is noted here that it is already the case that those using the Marina, are not denied the facility to live, sleep, and dine etc. on said craft, within yards of the proposed development, which makes any refusal on grounds of Noise and Nuisance a travesty. Much has been made generally in the context of these proposals of the fear of a "Traveller" issue, where gross abuse of unsuitable land and sites is carried out by Itinerants. this is not one of those cases. This is a proposed REGULATED and limited stay facility, with the object of providing a safe place for those who prefer not to avail themselves of "hotel" style of accommodation for their own personal reasons which in many cases this will be based around access to personal facilities being (their) priority, many hotel facilities not being suitable nor on ground level, and is one reason why many including myself use a Motor-home or Camper at all, it being both mobile and adapted.

 

[GJH]

I think you can park and stay st Kings Dock

have you stopped there ?
the only reference to motorhome parking I can find is on 'Search for sites.'
there is no mention on the Kings Dock web site and the parking notice board says "Coach Park Only" ..
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.394...4!1sdjovZ9YwaPFJwacrS2qo2w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I was last in touch with them nearly 5 years ago and these are the notes I made for my web site at the time:
In response to an enquiry I made a representative of Albert Dock said (18 September 2013) "Unfortunately the parking bays on the Albert Dock estate are only designed for your average size vehicle so cannot accommodate motorhomes but our neighbours can. I'm not sure what their policy is as regards parking overnight but they have room for motorhomes. The area is called Kings Waterfront and is adjacent to our estate".
Kings Dock supplied the following information. Motor homes can park on Kings Dock. We have car parks with standard 16x8 ft spaces. Anything bigger would need to use the Coach parking bays. The Estate is private land in the ownership of Homes and Communities agency. CBRE Ltd are the appointed managing agents. Our security/CCTV control room 24hr and is based at Wapping Tower and we can be contacted on 0151 707 0120. Also by email kingswaterfront@googlemail.com. Motorhomes wishing to park overnight should contact the control room, Extended stays contact no’s will be required. The web site has a number of links to other occupiers of the site which contain details of all attractions and both car and coach parks tariffs.
Whether it is still possible to camp at Kings Dock (especially in the light of the Marina action) I don't know.

 

[Abacist]

The refusal was not due to any objections of which I could not see any amongst the papers on file. It was because the application did not conform to policy and other such bureaucratic verbage - why can't they put it in English that does not require going hunting for endless other policy documents!

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[ShiftZZ]

"Or more likely someone on the council has a vested interest."

Talk about a conspiracy theory..Evidence..

The mentality of some motorhomers is possibly the reason.. "I have a motorhome so I can park anywhere, FOR FREE" or a fear of Travellers using it and causing damage.

The days are numbered for FLT , they are possibly the biggest catalyst for this move.

Wild Camping in the UK is hurtling towards its final demise and please dont blame councils, or those we elect, the answer is closer to home..

The public do not see any difference between FLT and Travellers. That may well be wrong, but its true..
All it needs is ONE FLT to leave a single Mars bar wrapper, game over..

The vast increase of motorhomes has focused the attention and suddenly "Oh look, they want something for free paid for our council taxpayers, I think the answer is FO, if they can afford £x,000's then they can afford yo go on a campsite.."

Can you blame them?
No.

The minority have again engineered the demise of Wilcamping..

 

[GJH]

The refusal was not due to any objections of which I could not see any amongst the papers on file. It was because the application did not conform to policy and other such bureaucratic verbage - why can't they put it in English that does not require going hunting for endless other policy documents!

Planning decisions don't have to be based on specific objections. Policies already decided (after public consultation) are taken into account.
The policies are part of the local plan which was, itself, subject to public consultation and comment by anyone interested. If people didn't take the chance to study the consultation documents and comment upon them that is not the council's fault is it?
If they didn't quote the policy references then they would have to quote the same - quite possibly lengthy - text in every decision notice, wasting time, paper &c.

They do, in fact, expand by saying that the proposal is considered to have a materially adverse impact upon the character and appearance of the area and the living environment and conditions of the surrounding residential apartments contrary to the policies listed. If the applicants held the discussions with the council that the planning procedure encourages them to do then they will have received even more detail.

 

[2657]

have you stopped there ?

the only reference to motorhome parking I can find is on 'Search for sites.'

there is no mention on the Kings Dock web site and the parking notice board says "Coach Park Only" ..

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.394...4!1sdjovZ9YwaPFJwacrS2qo2w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

We stayed there last August but not on the coach park, there is a semicircular car park behind the coach park suitable for smaller motorhomes, can't remember how much and the security weren't interested, I think the video surveillance company has changed.

Some had parked on the coach park and some in the exhibition centre area, only about 4 or 5 vans in total.

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[Nasher]

I'm really struggling with this:

On the one hand, I would love to stay at Liverpool Marina in my motorhome - particularly useful for the Isle of Man seacat. So as a motorhomer I would support the application

On the other hand, I am thinking that when I am older, I might sell my house & buy an apartment at Swansea Marina to live in.
If I were to spend my hard earned money on such an apartment & after having lived in it for a number of years, would I be happy if I look out of my window to see (up to) 12 travellers and their motorhomes? I use the word 'travellers' because (as pointed out by @ShiftZZ tZZ) many people can't/don't/won't distinguish between motorhomers and travellers (let alone FLT motorhomers or non FLT motorhomers!)

The planning application, specifically mentions that awnings, tables & chairs, etc. would not be allowed - but how would that be enforced?
Whilst we think, as motorhomers, that we won't leave rubbish, grey/black waste - there will always be one or two that will.
There is also the noise factor to be considered, how many of you have complained on this forum about noisy dogs/kids/generators/music/etc. at a campsite? How would you feel if that noise were a permanent feature in your own home?

So, by putting myself in the position of a resident, I would oppose the application.

I'd be interested in other Funster's opinions. In particular, if you put yourself in the situation of a Marina resident

That way, I may be able to get off this fence...........................

 

[scotjimland]

So, by putting myself in the position of a resident, I would oppose the application.

as a resident I would also.

I've asked this question before.

How many would like a motorhome parked up outside their house for days on end with the owners living in it ? .

I suspect most wouldn't be happy, I know I wouldn't ... and even more unhappy if the spot was then listed on a FB page and 'Search For Sites' as a wild camping spot.. and used all the time, but that does happen.

 

[GJH]

I'm really struggling with this:

On the one hand, I would love to stay at Liverpool Marina in my motorhome - particularly useful for the Isle of Man seacat. So as a motorhomer I would support the application

On the other hand, I am thinking that when I am older, I might sell my house & buy an apartment at Swansea Marina to live in.
If I were to spend my hard earned money on such an apartment & after having lived in it for a number of years, would I be happy if I look out of my window to see (up to) 12 travellers and their motorhomes? I use the word 'travellers' because (as pointed out by @ShiftZZ tZZ) many people can't/don't/won't distinguish between motorhomers and travellers (let alone FLT motorhomers or non FLT motorhomers!)

The planning application, specifically mentions that awnings, tables & chairs, etc. would not be allowed - but how would that be enforced?
Whilst we think, as motorhomers, that we won't leave rubbish, grey/black waste - there will always be one or two that will.
There is also the noise factor to be considered, how many of you have complained on this forum about noisy dogs/kids/generators/music/etc. at a campsite? How would you feel if that noise were a permanent feature in your own home?

So, by putting myself in the position of a resident, I would oppose the application.

I'd be interested in other Funster's opinions. In particular, if you put yourself in the situation of a Marina resident

That way, I may be able to get off this fence...........................

as a resident I would also.

I've asked this question before.

How many would like a motorhome parked up outside their house for days on end with the occupants living in it ? .

I suspect most wouldn't be happy, I know I wouldn't ... and even more unhappy if the spot was then listed on a FB page and 'Search For Sites' as a wild camping spot.. and used all the time, but that does happen.

Which is why we have legislation, including planning legislation, - to arbitrate between the conflicting desires of different parts of society.

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[sueandjohn]

have you stopped there ?

the only reference to motorhome parking I can find is on 'Search for sites.'

there is no mention on the Kings Dock web site and the parking notice board says "Coach Park Only" ..

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.394...4!1sdjovZ9YwaPFJwacrS2qo2w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I didn’t stay but I cslled and asked and they said it was fine
https://www.searchforsites.co.uk/markerMobile.php?id=23143

 

[Abacist]

Planning decisions don't have to be based on specific objections. Policies already decided (after public consultation) are taken into account.
The policies are part of the local plan which was, itself, subject to public consultation and comment by anyone interested. If people didn't take the chance to study the consultation documents and comment upon them that is not the council's fault is it?
If they didn't quote the policy references then they would have to quote the same - quite possibly lengthy - text in every decision notice, wasting time, paper &c.

They do, in fact, expand by saying that the proposal is considered to have a materially adverse impact upon the character and appearance of the area and the living environment and conditions of the surrounding residential apartments contrary to the policies listed. If the applicants held the discussions with the council that the planning procedure encourages them to do then they will have received even more detail.

I do realise all that but it can be such a pain when, like us, there is a need to grapple with the issue and potentially help an appeal. Its already lost its attraction as I am too busy to look further! The marina apparently did not help itself in the first place!

 

[chaser]

I know @GJH has come up with his legislation again probably expecting a comment from me but in this case I don't have a lot of sympathy for the claimant, he's applied for a campsite so stirring up a can of worms when he probably knew there was no chance . We don't know if the council knew about it before or not but if they didn't he's brought it on his self and if they did they were probably out to stop him in the first place.
This is totally different than the parking thread, no one was asking to camp just park for the night on an empty car park.

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[GJH]

I do realise all that but it can be such a pain when, like us, there is a need to grapple with the issue and potentially help an appeal. Its already lost its attraction as I am too busy to look further! The marina apparently did not help itself in the first place!

I don't think that's necessarily the case. The decision said "the proposal is considered to have a materially adverse impact" and the applicant is looking for responses to counteract that - i.e. the fact that people would be camping (not simply parking as we have rehearsed to death on other threads) would not have a materially adverse impact.
Whilst official decisions necessarily have an element of formality, to ensure consistency, there is no need for submissions from lay individuals to be as formal.

 

[WSandME]

Whilst we think, as motorhomers, that we won't leave rubbish, grey/black waste - there will always be one or two that will.
There is also the noise factor to be considered, how many of you have complained on this forum about noisy dogs/kids/generators/music/etc. at a campsite? How would you feel if that noise were a permanent feature in your own home?

On that basis, you must also oppose the provision of their CAR park - most car parks I've seen suffer from ALL the misbehaviour you attribute to motorhomers - including Black waste - I can't count the number of soiled nappies I've seen thrown out of cars onto the car park.

 

[Conal]

We stayed at Liverpool Marina in June 2018. We emailed ahead and received a return email that it was okay to stay. We arrived at 1pm on a Sunday, just as the Yacht Club reception closed and, whilst it was clear that they hadn't reserved a place for us, there was room and we able to park. There are five car parking areas around the Yacht Club - four outside the gates, and one inside - and motorhomes were allowed to stay on all five, as we were informed by the gentleman at reception. Whilst the appeal is going on they only allow motorhome parking in the car park within the gated area of the Yacht Club. As you approach the Club from the road this is a temporarily cordoned off area to the right of the car park. To the back of the area is the marina, but there are some very large vessels which seem to be permanently moored and these give the marina and the Yacht Club bar/restaurant privacy from the motorhomes. At the motorhome end of the car park there is an apartment block with ground floor parking and beyond that residential houses. In response to comments made above, in my opinion it would be very difficult to argue that the maximum 10-12 motorhomes would cause any problems at all to the residential area, especially as all car parks are very busy during the day.

We stayed there two nights and I guided three motorhome owners and a car and small caravan into the temporary parking area. If you are thinking of visiting it is important to note that whilst it is polite to inform Reception you are there, it does not appear to be obligatory and obviously it is not possible outside Reception opening hours. Our motorhome is 8m long and I had no problem parking within the area. You have free access to the toilets inside the Yacht Club building and are able to use the bar/restaurant where we had a pleasant meal. If you wish to use their shower facilities and/or dispose of your black waste a key will cost you £10, of which £5 is refundable. I am not sure if this is per person, or whether the same card operates the shower areas which are accessible from the gents and ladies' toilets, as we did not use this facility.

There appears to be a little confusion about payment for overnight parking. The charge for any vehicle staying 24 hours is £15. It is very important to pay at the correct meter. Whilst there is a meter within the Yacht Club's internal car park, you must not use this (I don't know why). You must use the meter in the outer car park nearest to the Yacht Club on the right-hand side as you approach. This is very easy to locate. Like most modern car parks you simply put in your registration number and select "Max" when asked how long you are staying, and pay by credit or debit card. We are not used to staying over 24 hours in a car park, so were not aware that you can't renew your parking fee until the first 24-hour period has expired, so I had to be at the meter exactly 24 hours after we had bought our first ticket to purchase our second 24 hour ticket. Two of the visitors who parked there decided not to obtain tickets as it was very quiet and had been advised by the Yacht Club bar staff that they could "sort things out tomorrow morning" when Reception was open. I explained to them that in my view this would not convince a parking attendant to waive a parking penalty, but it was their risk.

The Yacht Club is perfectly placed for the waterfront and a 10-minute walk takes you to the Albert Dock, including the Beatles Story, the "Three Graces", and the ferry ports. This was very interesting to us as the TT races had finished the day before and we watched a ferry full of motorbikes disembark and completely block the surrounding roads. It would be very disappointing if the appeal is turned down and motorhomes are no longer able to take advantage of such a convenient location.

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[GJH]

I guided three motorhome owners and a car and small caravan into the temporary parking area.

I wonder if that is an indication of why (to an extent at least) the application has been refused.
All the publicity I have seen over the years restricts use to camping in motorhomes. The planning application actually says "This application does not seek permission for caravans or other trailer‐type accommodation."
If the LA is aware that the applicants are allowing caravan camping despite that then it won't help their case.

 

[Conal]

Graham
I agree, the problem is that, whilst the Yatch Club is open from early morning until the bar closes, the reception is not. The caravan arrived early Sunday evening and the driver had very little knowledge about the venue. There was no one he could ask apart from the bar staff who are non-committal. The message re: no caravans clearly has not filtered down. The only signs in the area are in the four outside car parks where it is clearly stated that motorhomes / overnight camping is not allowed. The area of the car park reserved for motorhomes is quite small and a little out of the way but clearly visible from the marina access road which also serves the local residential properties.
Interestingly for the two days and nights we were there an Irish registered motor home was parked one of the outside car parks and we saw no penalty notice.
Conal

 

[GJH]

The caravan arrived early Sunday evening and the driver had very little knowledge about the venue.

And yet he decided it was OK to camp where it was convenient to him, rather than checking beforehand.
Ironic really as controlling such behaviour is one of the main reasons behind the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960

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[chaser]

And yet he decided it was OK to camp where it was convenient to him, rather than checking beforehand.
Ironic really as controlling such behaviour is one of the main reasons behind the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960

We can all go on about others who are not on here but the fact is , I would like to bet , that there are far more motorhomers who havnt got the slightest idea about all these rules and couldnt care less if they did.

 

[GJH]

We can all go on about others who are not on here but the fact is , I would like to bet , that there are far more motorhomers who havnt got the slightest idea about all these rules and couldnt care less if they did.

Two points there.
1. Haven't the slightest idea. It's a general principle of legal systems (certainly is in the UK) that ignorance of the law is no defence. We don't accept "I didn't know" excuses from people who break the law in general so why should this situation be any different?
2. Couldn't care less. Those who don't care about their fellow citizens are the bane of any society.

 

[chaser]

Two points there.
1. Haven't the slightest idea. It's a general principle of legal systems (certainly is in the UK) that ignorance of the law is no defence. We don't accept "I didn't know" excuses from people who break the law in general so why should this situation be any different?
2. Couldn't care less. Those who don't care about their fellow citizens are the bane of any society.

Not disagreeing just stating fact

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[PeteH]

"Ignorance of the law". I love that phrase, it`s the "catch-all" beloved of those "jobsworths" who know it all, and have very little experience of REAL life. Most of "US" have more to do than look at every bit of Legalese that is posted on just about every lamppost. Yes, something may not be exactly as the "jobsworths" like it. But some leeway in IMHO is justifiable. After all IF we all new every law in the statute. The Legal profession would be on the breadline!. And currently they are amongst the most wealthy. Probably a "profession" into which to advise your Grand-kids and they are unlikely ever to be out of work, nor very poor.

A modicum of respect for others, some common sense, and the Lawyers would be out of a job ASAP.

 

[chaser]

"Ignorance of the law". I love that phrase, it`s the "catch-all" beloved of those "jobsworths" who know it all, and have very little experience of REAL life. Most of "US" have more to do than look at every bit of Legalese that is posted on just about every lamppost. Yes, something may not be exactly as the "jobsworths" like it. But some leeway in IMHO is justifiable. After all IF we all new every law in the statute. The Legal profession would be on the breadline!. And currently they are amongst the most wealthy. Probably a "profession" into which to advise your Grand-kids and they are unlikely ever to be out of work, nor very poor.

A modicum of respect for others, some common sense, and the Lawyers would be out of a job ASAP.

i was watching a program the other night about litter wardens , what a load of t..... they are, instead of warning anyone they hide behind walls spying on peop;e who they think might drop a fag end or a sweet paper then jump out and slap a £70 fine on them.

 

[GAVLAD]

I’ve emailed my appeal for what it’s worth.
I’m surprised that some Funsters have thrown their spanner in the works rather than try throw their weight behind it.
Maybe if the council received a good number of appeals, they may review it or better still, create a dedicated venue for Motorhome visitors.

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[MR. FUSION]

Done
We intend to stay there in August and I have already booked tickets for the Terracotta Warriers exhibition for my birthday. Don’t know where to stay if not at the marina.

There is a C&CC CL site here: https://goo.gl/maps/DJ8zSgkea9D2
That is the nearest site I could find to Liverpool. Will be busy in August though. It's also a hike across a field and a park to the bus stop at the hospital unless you take a taxi. The bus goes straight into Liverpool city centre via the tunnel though, a day bus ticket at £4.50 (I think) is the best option.

 

[farmersboy]

I went to Liverpool Marina on the day this all kicked off. Basically the marina lease the front car park off the council and parking of motorhomes is not allowed under the lease. The complaint was made by the residents of the apartments which overlook the car park. I went for the tall ships festival and the marina managed to fit me in to his private car park but it was very cosy to say the least. Next morning I went for a walk and found that Kings Road Car park has spaces marked out for motorhomes at the same price as the marina but in this case the money goes in to the council pockets so a case of double standards. It is a better parking spot in my opinion as you are a lot closer to Albert Dock and other attractions. On the night I stopped car park attendants came round several times and as long as you showed that you had paid £15 for 24 hours then it was not problem staying overnight.

 

[tony dellar]

Looks like someone is looking to cash in , welcome to ripoff UK !

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