Airstream Caravans (1 Viewer)

[Blue Knight]

Hi Funsters,

Not wishing to be a miserable b@$t@rd on the fun forum this evening but it has been a very dull and dreary day of insurance quotes for me. We have 7 outcomes after each proposal was assessed by an underwriter.

1. 5 x insurance declines.
2. 2 x insurance quotes.

Quote-1: £1,600 with a requirement to add £1,500 of extra security bits.

Quote-2: £1,400 with a requirement to add £2,000 of extra security bits.

Both quotes require all of the security equipment(s) to be locked/attached/activated when you leave the van regardless of its location and time spent away; i.e. so if we're on a CMC site in the UK (as an example) then everything needs to be locked down when we go adventuring or else both policies become void.

Nicky and I are on a CL site in Northumberland and after a wee chat over a glass of red we've both decided to put this new MY18 Airstream dream on hold for a while.

I get the impression that if you live in the US/AUS/CAN with an extensive freedom to wander then this is a fabulous bit of kit but, if you're in the UK/Europe, like us, then it seems ever more apparent that owning a 'new' Airstream is just one great big pain in the backside due to the constant need to fortify and secure it.

My local Airstream dealer has been really great and has confirmed that a Range Rover Vouge/Sport is the best vehicle for a 2.4T van but not for a van registered at 2.7T. That question is still to be answered. The dealer also gave me the name of the company which issued the £1,400 quote so good on them

My intention is to visit the dealer next week for a catch-up but I doubt we'll change our minds in the meantime.

Perhaps next year eh.

You guys have been really fantastic.

All the best,

Andrew

......... now where's my Frankia brochure (only joking)

 

[Blue Knight]

BTW, the second quote of £1,400 is just for the March to September season only. If we want to use it all year round and in Europe then this quote rockets to just over £2,000.

 

[busby]

Blimey i am worn out,,isn't it it complicated,,,Think i will stick to my 5 mtr Autosleeper Symbol,,,BUSBY

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[TinaLes]

Thank You @Blue Knight for a very interesting read on the Trials and tribs of wanting to become an Airstream Owner. I think I understand exactly how you feel at the minute, as once I get an idea that develops into a dream, then it soon becomes a must have, that makes the purchase easier to define as being a sensible, well thought out decision, rather than an emotional one.
From what you have discovered and shared with us thus far, I dont think the dealerships will be able to sustain the minimum order requirement from Airstream, or indeed have that amount of dosh tied up in immovable stock.
Maybe the smaller single axle Airstreams will sell, and be more suited to The UK, as they are easier to match with a towing vehicle, but I have no idea of payloads,I bet they are typical Caravan loads which demand carrying most stuff in the tow vehicle.
I can see why Andrew Ditton tows with a Navara, as he puts his big Triumph Motorbike in the rear, however on another Vlog he does mention that although he loved testing the Disco, and The Volvo XC90 for towing his single axle, his dream tug would be the new VW T6 4X4 van with 220 BHP, but then he saw the price
So maybe a single axle is worth a second look.
Good luck with any decisions you make.
Les

 

[Blue Knight]

Thank You @Blue Knight for a very interesting read on the Trials and tribs of wanting to become an Airstream Owner. I think I understand exactly how you feel at the minute, as once I get an idea that develops into a dream, then it soon becomes a must have, that makes the purchase easier to define as being a sensible, well thought out decision, rather than an emotional one.
From what you have discovered and shared with us thus far, I dont think the dealerships will be able to sustain the minimum order requirement from Airstream, or indeed have that amount of dosh tied up in immovable stock.
Maybe the smaller single axle Airstreams will sell, and be more suited to The UK, as they are easier to match with a towing vehicle, but I have no idea of payloads,I bet they are typical Caravan loads which demand carrying most stuff in the tow vehicle.
I can see why Andrew Ditton tows with a Navara, as he puts his big Triumph Motorbike in the rear, however on another Vlog he does mention that although he loved testing the Disco, and The Volvo XC90 for towing his single axle, his dream tug would be the new VW T6 4X4 van with 220 BHP, but then he saw the price
So maybe a single axle is worth a second look.
Good luck with any decisions you make.
Les

Hi Les, and many thanks for those very kind words. There are a few people on Fun who are interested in the Airstream vans so in the interests of completion (I have OCD) then here are the actual figures:

The van has a manufacturers quoted payload of 265kg at 2.4T but then you lose 233kg on the following (before any adjustment for EU regs and overweight materials):

Reich Motor Mover - 64kg.
Dometic AC - 30kg
Batteries- 50kg
2nd Gas bottle - 17kg
10 litres of water to fill tank - 10kg
ZipDee Awning - 40kg
Solar Panel - 12kg
TV and Aerial - 10kg.

......... so I have 32kg remaining before the EU +/-5% rule kicks in. This means that I have to re-plate the van to its max of 2,680kg just to put clothes and toothpaste inside.

This is the big problem though. The Caravan Club advise that a van should weigh a maximum of 85% of the towing vehicles kerb weight so with this in mind I need a vehicle with a kerb weight of 3,152kg just to be able to pull my 2.68T Airstream.

I've checked out the following vehicles. The first figure is the kerb weight and the 2nd is the 85% figure which is the maximum van which each car can pull (based on the CMC advice).

1. Toyota V8 Landcruiser - 2,615kg (2,223kg).
2. Rangey Vogue SE 4.4D - 2,504kg (2,128kg).
3. Toyota Landcruiser D-4D Inv 2,430kg (2,066kg).
4. Landy Disco HSE Lux - 2,311kg (1,964kg).
5. Ford Ranger Wildtrak - 2,215kg (1,879kg).
6. Rangey Sport SDV6 - 2,178kg ( 1,851kg).
7. Nissan Navara - 2,110kg (1,794kg).
8. Toyota Hilux D-4D - 2,030kg (1,729kg).
9. Mitsubishi L200 Warrior - 1,900kg (1,615kg).

.....so based upon the current CMC advice, which vehicle comes close to my requirement of 3,152kg (2,680kg)?

The answer is none and most above IMO would be dangerous.

Sorry for the tech info.

Cheers,

Andrew

 

[TinaLes]

Wow! yes you have been busy getting all those stats written down, but then again you need to do this to get the right vehicle and stay "legal"
As you have demonstrated, Its always been difficult to get all the towing parameters inside the legal limits, vehicle kerb weight, vehicle tow hitch weight, caravan hitch weight, remaining payload after the "extras are added in, etc etc.
The average Swift caravan payload is 160KG to 220 as you know, many many people go over the top of this some knowing, some not knowing and some that just dont care.

The same can be said for the 85% rule, many state that is "Just a Guide" or "Old Fashioned" as modern cars weigh less but have much more torque.
I towed our last caravan at 89% according to the CMC calculator, unless I went for a Disco, or similar no way would I have been able to tow a twin axle van.

Thats all history now, as we changed to a new Motor home, but even then payloads are important for comfort, safety, and fuel economy.
We have since learnt that most payloads quoted for the non C1 licence holders of (light) 3500KGs vans are also exaggerated, and most of these will either be overloaded on full tanks or need uprated suspension and a C1 licence.
Wish we had done it years ago when life didnt seem that complicated,people just did their thing, made their own memories and lived the dream, so to speak.
Les

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[John65]

@Blue Knight the 85% rule doesn’t apply to 4x4 vehicles most of the vehicles you have listed will tow a trailer 3.25 to3.5T legaly.In the UK you can tow 100% of vehicles kerb weight

 

[Blue Knight]

@Blue Knight the 85% rule doesn’t apply to 4x4 vehicles most of the vehicles you have listed will tow a trailer 3.25 to3.5T legaly.In the UK you can tow 100% of vehicles kerb weight

I've not heard that before John. I understand the thought about 85% for novice towers and perhaps a stretch to 100% for experienced guys but I've never seen the 4x4-thing thrown into the equation.

Cheers.

Andrew

 

[Blue Knight]

Wow! yes you have been busy getting all those stats written down, but then again you need to do this to get the right vehicle and stay "legal"
As you have demonstrated, Its always been difficult to get all the towing parameters inside the legal limits, vehicle kerb weight, vehicle tow hitch weight, caravan hitch weight, remaining payload after the "extras are added in, etc etc.
The average Swift caravan payload is 160KG to 220 as you know, many many people go over the top of this some knowing, some not knowing and some that just dont care.

The same can be said for the 85% rule, many state that is "Just a Guide" or "Old Fashioned" as modern cars weigh less but have much more torque.
I towed our last caravan at 89% according to the CMC calculator, unless I went for a Disco, or similar no way would I have been able to tow a twin axle van.

Thats all history now, as we changed to a new Motor home, but even then payloads are important for comfort, safety, and fuel economy.
We have since learnt that most payloads quoted for the non C1 licence holders of (light) 3500KGs vans are also exaggerated, and most of these will either be overloaded on full tanks or need uprated suspension and a C1 licence.
Wish we had done it years ago when life didnt seem that complicated,people just did their thing, made their own memories and lived the dream, so to speak.
Les

That's a great post Les

Nicky and I swung by the dealer this afternoon and spent an hour going through the relevant facts and figures with one manager and four staff. They obviously want to be the first of the six UK dealers to sell a Colarado this year.

The important point that we uncovered is that all of my vehicle stats (mentioned above) relate to MY18 cars whereas their master list of compatible towing cars for Airstreams only relates to pre 2017 cars and beyond.

This means that a new MY18 Range Rover Sport is now 600kg lighter than last year's model (i.e. from 3T to 2.4T) so it seems that Airstream, via Swift, has decided to introduce a big fat 2.7T van at an evolutionary period when the manufacturers are radically reducing the weights of their towing vehicles.

This is no longer viable for us so "we're out"

Thanks for the input Les - you're a star

All the best,

Andrew

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[PeteH]

Reading this, my thoughts are that is a SAD reflection of to-day. Where we are faced with decisions forced by a bureaucracy, who largely have no real time/life experience of the requirements of those they "Serve". Licencing and loading "rules" are just one. We clearly need a separate classification for "Motorhome" (just one example). Which allows the unlimited use of such to include a sensible Payload. Most motorhome chassis are largely downrated to 3.5t merely to conform with current B licencing limits. Most are IMV actually "unfit for purpose"!, even putting the driver and passenger in, they are overloaded!.

 

[tacr2man]

Reading this, my thoughts are that is a SAD reflection of to-day. Where we are faced with decisions forced by a bureaucracy, who largely have no real time/life experience of the requirements of those they "Serve". Licencing and loading "rules" are just one. We clearly need a separate classification for "Motorhome" (just one example). Which allows the unlimited use of such to include a sensible Payload. Most motorhome chassis are largely downrated to 3.5t merely to conform with current B licencing limits. Most are IMV actually "unfit for purpose"!, even putting the driver and passenger in, they are overloaded!.

Just because a vehicle is a "motorhome" does not change the laws of physics in relation to weight , handling size. If you need a certain licence to drive a certain weight of goods carrying vehicle , then just because the weight is composed of fridge , water tank, bedding , clothes , and sat TV antenna doesn't make any difference, to a load of bricks or bags of cement . JMHO

 

[jockaneezer]

Didn't the old licence cover you to drive 7.5 ton, but was reduced to 3.5 to comply with EU laws ? I know this doesn't matter a fig to a designed vehicle's payload, but having said that, a lot of uprating is only a paper exercise, so the payload capability already exists, to some extent ?

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[Blue Knight]

Interesting points from you guys but they all seem to reflect a changing society in some form or other.

I've just watched one of Andrew Ditton's videos again and I still find the Airstream-thing to be very appealing.

The difference with his van is that his dimensions are much more palatable to UK roads. The one which we were looking at is 21cm wider (2.5m total) and 8.25m long as opposed to his which is circa 6.8m. Also, we would have an extra 850kg to tug around.

If Andrew were to tug the Airstream Colarado around the Highlands and Islands then I reckon most of his blog time would be replaced by trips to various body repair shops.

 

[Blue Knight]

Just for info Funsters: I phoned the CMC Tech Line today and spoke with their car-van matching service who told me that I should find something like a breakdown truck to tow the Airstream. Otherwise there is nothing on the CMC database which comes close.

 

[tacr2man]

Interesting points from you guys but they all seem to reflect a changing society in some form or other.

I've just watched one of Andrew Ditton's videos again and I still find the Airstream-thing to be very appealing.

The difference with his van is that his dimensions are much more palatable to UK roads. The one which we were looking at is 21cm wider (2.5m total) and 8.25m long as opposed to his which is circa 6.8m. Also, we would have an extra 850kg to tug around.

If Andrew were to tug the Airstream Colarado around the Highlands and Islands then I reckon most of his blog time would be replaced by trips to various body repair shops.

You just posted that the airstream in question that you were considering is 8.25 meters long , this is a factor that I was not aware of in my previous replies to you , It has considerable bearing on the question of a tow vehicle as the max tow-able length in UK with a vehicle that is 3500kg or less is 7 meters (not including A frame) . So you would in deed not be able to tow with any normal UK car. @Blue Knight

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[Blue Knight]

You just posted that the airstream in question that you were considering is 8.25 meters long , this is a factor that I was not aware of in my previous replies to you , It has considerable bearing on the question of a tow vehicle as the max tow-able length in UK with a vehicle that is 3500kg or less is 7 meters (not including A frame) . So you would in deed not be able to tow with any normal UK car. @Blue Knight

I hope I didn't mislead but my opening post was a.) internal length = 6.81m and, b.) total external length = 8.25m. That's the Swift brochure talking not me. I'm assuming that this must mean an A-frame length of 1.44m

You've probably guessed by now that caravans are not my thing but I'm finding this whole scenerio to be very confusing.

I appreciate your help.

 

[Theonlysue]

What an interesting thread.
I think they are lovely vans!

 

[Blue Knight]

What an interesting thread.
I think they are lovely vans!

I've consulted with the C&MC lot too for advice and the general consensus is that the small van at 1.81T and 2.29m wide (i.e. an Andrew Ditton style van), is usable in the UK whereas the bigger one (2.7T and 2.5m) is more suited for a.) A UK static site/seasonal pitch, or b.) Touring America, Canada and Australia etc.

The C&MC bought a few larger Airstreams this year and they can be hired out as a static caravan from £190 for 2-nights. The C&MC Airstreams do not move though.

I even took the opportunity to ask the C&MC how they transported their big Airstreams to the respective C&MC sites and it appears it was via a large flatbed truck.

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[tacr2man]

I hope I didn't mislead but my opening post was a.) internal length = 6.81m and, b.) total external length = 8.25m. That's the Swift brochure talking not me. I'm assuming that this must mean an A-frame length of 1.44m

You've probably guessed by now that caravans are not my thing but I'm finding this whole scenerio to be very confusing.

I appreciate your help.

6.81mtr internal probably means that external body is right on or millimetres under the magic 7mtrs Width is not a factor since width limit was increased by Gov from 2.3 to 2.55 bringing UK inline with Europe . In view of that I would be quite happy towing as tourer in UK with my Landrover . Obviously that's a personal choice , as yours must be

 

[Blue Knight]

6.81mtr internal probably means that external body is right on or millimetres under the magic 7mtrs Width is not a factor since width limit was increased by Gov from 2.3 to 2.55 bringing UK inline with Europe . In view of that I would be quite happy towing as tourer in UK with my Landrover . Obviously that's a personal choice , as yours must be

Good post-up, many thanks

One thing that I have established is how many different mindsets exist on towing and towing ratios in the UK. It has been quite an informative thread for me but I'll be honest and say that I'm still not 100%.

I even checked it out via the Police and they themselves are still officially quoting 85% to 100% ratios so if I abide with those figures then my tow car must have a kerb weight of between 2,680kg and 3,152kg. The defender is a smidge over 2T.

..........now then, where abouts is that thread on learning to crochet. I may need that as my new hobby

Cheers,

Andrew

 

[funflair]

I think the trouble with towing weights is that there are two limits, the legal one and the safe one and the two do not always agree, a 3T compact trailer might be perfectly safe and legal behind a large 4x4 for example but then substitute a 8.5 metre 3T trailer/caravan and the dynamics of pendulum affect are quite different. My understanding is that the 85%"rule" is simply a guide that attempts to recognise the difference between safe trailer limits and caravan limits.

Martin

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[tacr2man]

The published towing limit for defender is 3500 with o/run and 4000 with activ in UK IIRC I have operated a 130dc HCPU in Australia with at the max listed train weight of 7490kg , with no probs , over many 100's of km @Blue Knight

 

[Blue Knight]

I think the trouble with towing weights is that there are two limits, the legal one and the safe one and the two do not always agree, a 3T compact trailer might be perfectly safe and legal behind a large 4x4 for example but then substitute a 8.5 metre 3T trailer/caravan and the dynamics of pendulum affect are quite different. My understanding is that the 85%"rule" is simply a guide that attempts to recognise the difference between safe trailer limits and caravan limits.

Martin

Fantastic, Martin Your explanation above is the exact missing link that I've been looking for regarding size, weight, length, safety, control and ratios etc.

It all makes sense now.

Many thanks,

Andrew

 

[stevewagner]

Hi

There's a place in Hailsham, East Sussex that sell refurbished Airstreams

http://www.amcmotorcaravans.co.uk/

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[jockaneezer]

When you get up to these sort of train weights, you must be just about into the tachograph area, but I assume leisure vehicles are exempt ?

 

[tacr2man]

When you get up to these sort of train weights, you must be just about into the tachograph area, but I assume leisure vehicles are exempt ?

Yes private not subject to Tacho regs.

 

[Blue Knight]

I've just been reading an interesting thread on Airforums (US) where the participants are discussing the various roof leaks they have encountered on their new MY17 and MY18 Airstreams.

It seems that the US market has dealer and warranty issues too.

I hope the International/UK Airstreams don't leak but if they do then how will Swift attempt to rectify the problem when the outer shells are manufactured and pressure tested in the States.

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[TinaLes]

Hi @Blue Knight
Hope I am not rubbing things in too much, but I really do doubt that many people, even ex tuggers like us realised how highly specked The 23 D Airstream is. I dont think there is a UK van that could even get half way to this spec, which just goes on and on, so well thought out, even full timing would be no hardship.
I can see now why they are so expensive, and hold their value if they are all similar to this one in the US.
I very much doubt if Swift Group could get anywhere near this spec, somehow.
Shame an HGV is needed to tow them
Enjoy



Les

 

[TinaLes]

Whoops, found this towing one also!, how about a Porsche Cayenne with 500BHP as a towing vehicle with and a few hitch improvements


Les

 

[Blue Knight]

Hi @Blue Knight
Hope I am not rubbing things in too much, but I really do doubt that many people, even ex tuggers like us realised how highly specked The 23 D Airstream is. I dont think there is a UK van that could even get half way to this spec, which just goes on and on, so well thought out, even full timing would be no hardship.
I can see now why they are so expensive, and hold their value if they are all similar to this one in the US.
I very much doubt if Swift Group could get anywhere near this spec, somehow.
Shame an HGV is needed to tow them
Enjoy



Les

I've not seen that vid before Les - that's a great find. Thankyou

However, what it does highlight is the difference between the very high quality, top specced US Airstream product and the utter twonk which Swift turfs out by comparison.

The US and UK vans look very similar but behind the scenes they are worlds apart; Swift has just bunged its budget range of equipment into any orifice possible.

Enough said

All the best,

Andrew

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