Proof of the 90 day limit ! (5 Viewers)

[Potty]

Nothing, apparently. You need to ask why this Government doesn't want us to have the same freedoms it has volunteered afor EU nationals.

Can you give the source for this? Where can I find the minutes of the negotiations? Have they been published?

 

[Minxy]

Funny how people can't get their heads around what many of them have voted gor....

... unfortunately remarks like that don't endear you to others.

There is no other 90 day tourist visa!

We're not talking about a different 90 day visa, but whether the existing one, which we don't have to apply for normally, could be used in addition to the 90 day 'rights' we already have ...

 

[Deneb]

We're not talking about a different 90 day visa, but whether the existing one, which we don't have to apply for normally, could be used in addition to the 90 day 'rights' we already have ...

No. The limit for tourism is 90 days. The visa exists because there is a list of countries which, unlike ourselves, are not exempt from tourist visa requirements, and so their citizens have to apply for a visa for any and every trip that they wish to make into the EU as a tourist, even if only for a few hours.

We - the UK - are limited to 90 days the same as everyone else, but we are in a different list and do not require a visa to enter and stay in the EU as tourists within that limit.

There is no such thing as an EU tourist visa that will cover more than 90 days, or extend the 90 day visa free period. Longer visas exist for specific purposes, but as soon as you enter "Tourism" as the reason for your visit on the application, the 90 day limit applies, and presumably if you try it as a UK citizen the application process will be cancelled and you will be informed that you don't require a visa for those circumstances.

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[domf]

There is no such thing as an EU tourist visa that will cover more than 90 days, or extend the 90 day visa free period.

Correct, however, I think you may be missing the point.

The suggestion is that the 90 days visa-free and a 90-day tourist Visa can be used one after the other, as described above. i.e. stay for upto 90 days Visa-free then up to another 90 days longer on a tourist Visa, having exited and re-entered Schengen.

If you can find official EU documentation that contradicts this, as opposed to often uninformed press articles, please link it here as I would love to read it.

 

[domf]

and presumably if you try it as a UK citizen the application process will be cancelled and you will be informed that you don't require a visa for those circumstances.

and that brings us to the heart of the issue. The EU is nothing if not bureaucratic. I see nothing in the rules to stop a UK citizen applying for such a Visa or any reasons in the rules for it to be denied.


Edit: Apologies for the double post - should have done this in one.

 

[Molly A]

... unfortunately remarks like that don't endear you to others.


We're not talking about a different 90 day visa, but whether the existing one, which we don't have to apply for normally, could be used in addition to the 90 day 'rights' we already have ...

Fortunately I am entirely indifferent to the levels of endearment felt for me. I am more interested in people understanding how these decisions have impacted the way of life that many of us have worked incredibly hard to achieve, only to have it taken from us. Maybe if more people had researched and understood the implications , which, from the questions and confusion evident on this thread, many have not, we would not now be scrabbling about to see how we can somehow preserve the freedoms that we used to enjoy.

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[Molly A]

No. The limit for tourism is 90 days. The visa exists because there is a list of countries which, unlike ourselves, are not exempt from tourist visa requirements, and so their citizens have to apply for a visa for any and every trip that they wish to make into the EU as a tourist, even if only for a few hours.

We - the UK - are limited to 90 days the same as everyone else, but we are in a different list and do not require a visa to enter and stay in the EU as tourists within that limit.

There is no such thing as an EU tourist visa that will cover more than 90 days, or extend the 90 day visa free period. Longer visas exist for specific purposes, but as soon as you enter "Tourism" as the reason for your visit on the application, the 90 day limit applies, and presumably if you try it as a UK citizen the application process will be cancelled and you will be informed that you don't require a visa for those circumstances.

Exactly.

 

[carolyn]

I suppose if you were looking for residency rather than tourism then a D7 visa for Portugal might be an option. It’s how non-EU folk get residency without being rich. I saw it discussed somewhere but now can’t find the link.

 

[tuscancouple]

The suggestion is that the 90 days visa-free and a 90-day tourist Visa can be used one after the other, as described above. i.e. stay for upto 90 days Visa-free then up to another 90 days longer on a tourist Visa, having exited and re-entered Schengen.

Can't be done! As has been said many times, the UK is subject to a visa waiver scheme now for the EU, just as we have for the US. Nothing special. Consequently the UK does not appear on the list of counties that require a visa, hence it is not possible to apply for a tourist visa! I've just tried on the official site, not possible.

I really stuggle to understand why folks think there should be a way around this. This is what we have, live with it. Countries such as Spain, France, Portugal will still get the millions of UK visitors they always have, 90 days will work for them, it just the small percentage of UK long stay folks in motorhomes, etc that will lose.

Mick

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[Deneb]

Correct, however, I think you may be missing the point.

The suggestion is that the 90 days visa-free and a 90-day tourist Visa can be used one after the other, as described above. i.e. stay for upto 90 days Visa-free then up to another 90 days longer on a tourist Visa, having exited and re-entered Schengen.

If you can find official EU documentation that contradicts this, as opposed to often uninformed press articles, please link it here as I would love to read it.

I'm not missing the point at all. I can't be bothered to trawl through the numerous EU regulations, the Handbook for Processing of Visa Applications and the Modification of Existing Visas, the Handbook for the Administrative Management of Visa Processing and other associated documents, but the links are are on the official EU website if you have a few hours (days?) to spare:

The Schengen visa

A Schengen visa is a short stay visa allowing its holder to circulate in the Schengen area. The Schengen area covers 26 countries ("Schengen States")...

ec.europa.eu

The summarised information does however seem pretty clear:

"A Schengen visa is a short stay visa allowing its holder to circulate in the Schengen area. The Schengen area covers 26 countries ("Schengen States") without border controls between them. These countries are: Austria, Belgium, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden and Switzerland.

A Schengen visa is an authorisation issued by a Schengen State with a view to:

• an intended stay in the territory of the Schengen States of a duration of no more than 90 days in any 180 days period ("short stay visa"),
• a transit through the international transit areas of airports of the Schengen States ("airport transit visa")."

and

"The border-free Schengen Area cannot function efficiently without a common visa policy which facilitates the entry of legal visitors into the EU, while strengthening internal security. The EU has established a common visa policy for transit through or intended stays in the territory of a Schengen States of no more than 90 days in any 180 days period and for transit through the international transit areas of airports of the Schengen States. In 2016, the 26 Schengen States issued 13.9 million "Schengen visas". You may find the <Broken link removed> lower in this page.

Main elements of the common visa policy​

Citizens from some non-EU countries are required to hold a visa when travelling to the Schengen Area. The EU has a common list of countries whose citizens must have a visa when crossing the external borders and a list of countries whose citizens are exempt from that requirement. These lists are set out in Regulation (EU) 2018/1806. Generally, a short-stay visa issued by one of the Schengen States entitles its holder to travel throughout the 26 Schengen States for up to 90 days in any 180-day period. Visas for visits exceeding that period remain subject to national procedures."

The bold text is mine to highlight pertinent points.

1) The UK is in a list of countries for which a short stay (tourist visa is not required)

2) The overall limit on any tourist visits to the EU is 90 days in any 180 day period (although as explained, individual member states may have arrangements that allow longer visits to that specific state or country only).

3) As the condition of our visa free access is that we can travel within the EU for up to 90 days in any 180 day period, and as the condition of a visa is that the holder can travel within the EU for 90 days in any 180 day period, can you not see that holding a visa back to back with claiming your 90 days of visa exempt travel would mean that you would be failing to comply with both the conditions of visa free entry and the conditions of the visa, since whichever 90 days you used first would automatically void the grant of a further 90 days under the other system, because you would not have been outside of the EU in the 90 days of the rolling 180 day period immediately preceding your claim to use the second exemption?

The conditions of both are that you can only have a maximum of 90 days in any rolling 180 day period, and as you can achieve that as a UK citizen without having to apply for a visa, why would the EU agree to issue you a visa to achieve the exact same permissions that you are already granted?

 

[domf]

it is not possible to apply for a tourist visa! I've just tried on the official site, not possible.

Mick,

that is really useful information - do you mind telling me where you tried to apply? I seem to have no issues applying as a UK citizen on the French application site.

 

[tuscancouple]

The conditions of both are that you can only have a maximum of 90 days in any rolling 180 day period!

Simple really, but folks will still question it

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[tuscancouple]

That is really useful information - do you mind telling me where you tried to apply? I seem to have no issues applying as a UK citizen on the French application site

Tourist Schengen Visa – Traveling to Europe for Tourism​

A Tourist Schengen Visa permits third-country nationals enter into the Schengen Area for a maximum of 90 days within a 6-month period, under the purpose of traveling or visiting Europe for pleasure.

Who needs a Tourist Schengen Visa When Traveling to Europe for Tourism?​

Non-European citizens willing to travel to Europe for tourism purpose might be required to apply for a short-term Schengen visa under “tourist” specification.

You need to apply for a Schengen Tourist Visa if your nationality is on the list of countries whose nationals need a Schengen short-stay visa.

Mick

 

[domf]

Tourist Schengen Visa – Traveling to Europe for Tourism​

A Tourist Schengen Visa permits third-country nationals enter into the Schengen Area for a maximum of 90 days within a 6-month period, under the purpose of traveling or visiting Europe for pleasure.

Who needs a Tourist Schengen Visa When Traveling to Europe for Tourism?​

Non-European citizens willing to travel to Europe for tourism purpose might be required to apply for a short-term Schengen visa under “tourist” specification.

You need to apply for a Schengen Tourist Visa if your nationality is on the list of countries whose nationals need a Schengen short-stay visa.

Mick

This may come over as being pedantic - but law and contracts are pedantic. Two pedantixc points:

1) This states you "need" to apply if on the list. It does not state you cannot apply if not on the list.
2) It states this allows entry for 90 in 180. It does not state this cannot be used cumulatively with other rights.

I am really not trying to wind anyone up here, merely exploring the art of the possible and what is legal

 

[Minxy]

No. The limit for tourism is 90 days. The visa exists because there is a list of countries which, unlike ourselves, are not exempt from tourist visa requirements, and so their citizens have to apply for a visa for any and every trip that they wish to make into the EU as a tourist, even if only for a few hours.

We - the UK - are limited to 90 days the same as everyone else, but we are in a different list and do not require a visa to enter and stay in the EU as tourists within that limit.

There is no such thing as an EU tourist visa that will cover more than 90 days, or extend the 90 day visa free period. Longer visas exist for specific purposes, but as soon as you enter "Tourism" as the reason for your visit on the application, the 90 day limit applies, and presumably if you try it as a UK citizen the application process will be cancelled and you will be informed that you don't require a visa for those circumstances.

I am fully aware that at present there appears to be no long stay visa for 'tourism' purposes to allow you to stay over 90 days continuously.

I understand about the 90 days in 180 we currently have without having to get a visa, which I have mentioned before, the question was raised as to whether this can be 'added' to by obtaining a visa in addition to the 90 days in 180 rule.

It was a situation that hadn't been queried previously hence my following up on it from the other post.

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[Deneb]

This may come over as being pedantic - but law and contracts are pedantic. Two pedantixc points:

1) This states you "need" to apply if on the list. It does not state you cannot apply if not on the list.
2) It states this allows entry for 90 in 180. It does not state this cannot be used cumulatively with other rights.

I am really not trying to wind anyone up here, merely exploring the art of the possible and what is legal

Do you not understand the meaning of 90 days in any 180 day period, knowing that the 180 is interpreted as a rolling period looking backwards from the proposed date of entry or any subsequent date you are currently in the EU?

If you think it is possible to utilise a visa in those circumstances, surely there would already have been a lot of third country citizens staying in the EU for longer periods by obtaining a succession of back-to-back 90 day visas?

Even if you were to find that you had been granted a visa by a desk jockey who hadn't appreciated what you were trying to do, good luck at the border when you come to leave. That is where they will determine that you have overstayed your maximum of 90 days within a rolling 180 day period, no ifs, no buts.

 

[Minxy]

Fortunately I am entirely indifferent to the levels of endearment felt for me. I am more interested in people understanding how these decisions have impacted the way of life that many of us have worked incredibly hard to achieve, only to have it taken from us. Maybe if more people had researched and understood the implications , which, from the questions and confusion evident on this thread, many have not, we would not now be scrabbling about to see how we can somehow preserve the freedoms that we used to enjoy.

Okay, let me put it more plainly seeing as it doesn't bother you ... IMV anyone who keeps harping on about 'what we have lost' etc it not only causing aggravation to others for the sake of it, but risks the 'harper' being sent to Coventry.

 

[domf]

If you think it is possible to utilise a visa in those circumstances, surely there would already have been a lot of third country citizens staying in the EU for longer periods by obtaining a succession of back-to-back 90 day visas?

No this would not be possible as it is unambiguously clear that a Schengen visa allows only 90 in any 180 as has been repeatedly stated. As such back to back visas would not allow you to do this.

A Schengen Visa + using a 90 in 180 which does not need a visa is far less clear IMHO.

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[Minxy]

Do you not understand the meaning of 90 days in any 180 day period, knowing that the 180 is interpreted as a rolling period looking backwards from the proposed date of entry or any subsequent date you are currently in the EU?

If you think it is possible to utilise a visa in those circumstances, surely there would already have been a lot of third country citizens staying in the EU for longer periods by obtaining a succession of back-to-back 90 day visas?

How do you know there aren't?

Even if you were to find that you had been granted a visa by a desk jockey who hadn't appreciated what you were trying to do, good luck at the border when you come to leave. That is where they will determine that you have overstayed your maximum of 90 days within a rolling 180 day period, no ifs, no buts.

How do you know this though?

 

[domf]

Even if you were to find that you had been granted a visa by a desk jockey who hadn't appreciated what you were trying to do, good luck at the border when you come to leave. That is where they will determine that you have overstayed your maximum of 90 days within a rolling 180 day period, no ifs, no buts.

You may indeed be correct. Then again you may not be.

 

[Deneb]

No this would not be possible as it is unambiguously clear that a Schengen visa allows only 90 in any 180 as has been repeatedly stated. As such back to back visas would not allow you to do this.

A Schengen Visa + using a 90 in 180 which does not need a visa is far less clear IMHO.

How so? Both allow 90 days in ANY 180 day period. If you have already been in the EU as visa exempt for 90 days immediately before attempting to utilise a visa that allows you 90 days within any period including the preceding 180 days, you would have already utilised the allowance granted in your visa

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[domf]

How so? Both allow 90 days in ANY 180 day period. If you have already been in the EU as visa exempt for 90 days immediately before attempting to utilise a visa that allows you 90 days within any period including the preceding 180 days, you would have already utilised the allowance granted in your visa

If you read the documents on the EU portal regarding Schengen visa issuing this is made clear that it cannot be more than 90 in 180. It appears to me that both the no visa and visa route independently allow 90 in 180....

 

[Deneb]

How do you know there aren't?


How do you know this though?

Because if you refer again to the official EU website, whether you are a citizen of a visa free country or a non-EU country who is required to obtain a short-stay (tourist) visa:

"The definition of short stay of non-EU citizens in the Schengen area is "90 days in any 180 days period" The short-stay calculator can be used for calculating the period of allowed stay."

Can you find the facility in the short-stay calculator that allows you to add a short-stay visa and non-visa short-stay together, to come up with a result of 180 days?

 

[Deneb]

If you read the documents on the EU portal regarding Schengen visa issuing this is made clear that it cannot be more than 90 in 180. It appears to me that both the no visa and visa route independently allow 90 in 180....

Actually the visa free entry that the UK has been granted allows 90 days. The visa allows period to be determined at the time of application, which may be for any period up to a maximum of 90 days. and there is no guarantee that the applicant will be given 90 days. But you seem to be having difficulty understanding the concept of 90 days in any rolling 180 day period.

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[domf]

Can you find the facility in the short-stay calculator that allows you to add a short-stay visa and non-visa short-stay together, to come up with a result of 180 days?

No,

but the calculator is not part of the regulations. What matters is what is in the regulations......

 

[domf]

But you seem to be having difficulty understanding the concept of 90 days in any rolling 180 day period.

No I do not. However I see nothing that says they are the same 90 day rolling period.

 

[Deneb]

No,

but the calculator is not part of the regulations. What matters is what is in the regulations......

Then for God's sake read the bloody things and put us all out of our misery!!!

But the official precis seems perfectly clear to me:

Regulation (EU) No 610/2013 of 26 June 2013, amended the Convention Implementing the Schengen Agreement, the Schengen Borders Code and the Visa Code and – among others – re-defined the concept of "short stay" for third-country nationals in the Schengen area which is a fundamental element of the Schengen acquis. As from 18 October 2013 for the vast majority of the third-country nationals – irrespective of being visa required or exempt – who intend to travel to the Schengen area for a short stay (contrary to reside in one of the Member States for longer than 3 months) the maximum duration of authorised stay is defined as "90 days in any 180-day period".

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[domf]

Then for God's sake read the bloody things and put us all out of our misery!!!

I have - and it is on the basis of this reading I am asking these questions and making suggestions as I believe this may be an option. If it is, I strongly suspect it is an unintended consequence rather than planned.

 

[tuscancouple]

But you seem to be having difficulty understanding the concept of 90 days in any rolling 180 day period.

 

[robnchris]

Please explain what that has to do with immigration policy and visas? I'm all ears (unlike the fish).

I'd also like to know why anyone would regard the Daily Express as a reliable source of information on anything, being as they consistently peddle catastrophic doom and gloom on a daily basis, none of which ever comes to pass. But that's another matter altogether.

It has nothing to do with immigration policy or visa's, you asked about were I think the UK is being punished.
It doesn't matter what anyone regards of the Daily Mail reporting this is fact, I could have cited any amount of different media reports, it's what has happen all because of the French and their reactions to our fishermen.
I am amazed that some are still blaming the people that voted to leave the EU for the outcome of the brexit negotiations, surely any disagreement should be aimed at the people that sat around the table doing the talking.

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