A frames in France ? why do they build, certificate and sell them if they are illegal ? (1 Viewer)

[Minxy]

You’d have a hard job to prove it under s100(1).

There is a turn of phrase that springs to mind, ‘the proof of the pudding is in the eating’, if it is so inherently dangerous that it warrants a prosecution under S100(1) C&U regs, how is it that so many hundreds, if not thousands, of people manage to successfully A frame without incident daily? (Rhetorical question )

I have seen a photo of a detached A framer (from I assume the States) which a user posted on here some time ago, that issue relates to a lack of maintenance, or poor adaptation by the A frame installer, not an inherent danger with A framing generally. No difference to those who ignore routine maintenance of their vehicles, which go on to cause a collision.

I assume you are referring to the thread which was the cause of a lot discussion on the forum, that was a UK car not USA, where the whole installation was questioned.

 

[62272]

I assume you are referring to the thread which was the cause of a lot discussion on the forum, that was a UK car not USA, where the whole installation was questioned.

It could have been the installation, equipment or lack of maintenance. I regularly inspect my mounting points for that reason, and suggest others do the same as this would be the failure point if corroded, or incorrectly fitted.

For those who are not mechanically minded they should have their fittings professionally checked by a reputable garage or the installers.

It’s no difference to any owner who fits aftermarket accessories poorly or fails to maintain them. I can think of numerous examples (non-A frame related).

A prime example of this are tuggers who ignore maintenance of their tyres and wheel bearings and are surprised when their caravans snake and overturn on motorways.

 

[Minxy]

It could have been the installation, equipment or lack of maintenance. I regularly inspect my mounting points for that reason, and suggest others do the same as this would be the failure point if corroded, or incorrectly fitted.

For those who are not mechanically minded they should have their fittings professionally checked by a reputable garage or the installers.

It’s no difference to any owner who fits aftermarket accessories poorly or fails to maintain them. I can think of numerous examples (non-A frame related).

A prime example of this are tuggers who ignore maintenance of their tyres and wheel bearings and are surprised when their caravans snake and overturn on motorways.

I shall have to see if I can find out what the outcome was.

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[OldCodger]

Unless various bodies such as the National Police Chiefs Council (formerly ACPO), Police and Crime Commissioners, CPS, College of Policing, even Grant Shapps (spit) decide that the A-frame question merits closer scrutiny, the question of legality remains a grey area. For the time being it is below their radar. It would take a humungous traffic accident with casualties involving a dodgy A-frame, plus some tabloid headlines, to create such a scenario. My bet is that specific new legislation is much more likely than a test case in the Courts. Mainly because the UK is a country where there are so many civil serpents and politicians who are compulsory rule-makers, paid to do just that.

Meanwhile in the UK we carry on with the convenient fiction: modified car + A-frame = trailer. A fiction not shared by the rest of Europe.

Germans might have the correct answer - A-frame + car after having taken its engine out is a proper trailer. All you need is an engine hoist and skill with the tools.

I was hoping to hear from the prosecution - not the defence

 

[Bubba]

What about the 27 foot GPA aerial, and 30 watt burner, Was that legal too

Aerial. AERIAL. I thought it was a bamboo tree.

 

[62272]

Aerial. AERIAL. I thought it was a bamboo tree.

It certainly looked like one…. However being at one of the highest points in London it wiped everyone out

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[Bubba]

It certainly looked like one…. However being at one of the highest points in London it wiped everyone out

 

[gus-lopez]

Wrong on all counts (the limit in France when towing is 80 and 90 (KPH) on motorways). I do wonder if you just dream these things up

Please do not use heavy type when talking bollocks. The towing speed limit in France in dry conditions on dual toll & mways is 130kph,Reduces to 110kph when raining
People like you are wasting the air which could pump up a bike tyre.
& no ,I used to do it all this for a living. How UK & spanish rules interact with EU legislation for vehicular traffic & why I gave up acting for brits as they all knowitall.

What is the speed limit when towing a trailer in France?

Caravan / trailer speed limits

	Motorways	Other roads
Under 3.5t	130 km/h	80 km/h
3.5t to 12t	90 km/h	80 km/h
Over 12t	90 km/h	60 km/h

Like having to accept it because its not against the law.

In the Uk ,i do.

If the great minds of VOSA and the various police forces’ experts who assist in creating legislation cannot think of breach of the law, what is it about a motorhome fun A-framer ‘disliker’ that they think they know the answer. Baffles me

neither of them actually do that, they just enforce what has been dreamt up by even more stupid elected politicians.
It is black & white that modification of the front cross member voids the CoC. If you cannot fit a towbar post 2012 to vans & motorhomes( why did that take 20 years after cars when all supplied towbars were eu homologated ones anyway??) that is not homologated why do people,& those in power, accept that butchering the front of a new vehicle to allow something to tow it which it wasn't designed to do, breaches its pedestrian safety cell by reinforcing a zone designed to collapse in the event of an accident & allowing all this without any type of testing or homologation.
The Uk just allows these things to coast along until some catastrophe happens .

Additionally this***

mechanical modification to the vehicle voiding its Cert of Conformity.
mechanical modifications to the vehicle untested by sva .
no updated CoC
if towing points not removed when in use contravenes C&u regs for pedestrian safety.
illegal modifications in contravention of the 2007 anti-tuning directive( doubtful if the UK have removed this from the statue books yet)
you can amass a list if they want to.**

was the basis of an accepted EU complaint to both the EU; UK GOV: & DVSA in 2015 that was moving forward until brexit intervened. It was suspended until outcome was finalised & once Uk was out, 31st december 2020, was discontinued by the EU.

 

[OldCodger]

Additionally this***

mechanical modification to the vehicle voiding its Cert of Conformity.
mechanical modifications to the vehicle untested by sva .

Is that the basis of the “it’s not legal” statements? The mod to fit the A Frame voids the original CoC? And I would suppose, unless a new one is issued it’s “out of compliance”?

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[62272]

Please do not use heavy type when talking bollocks. The towing speed limit in France in dry conditions on dual toll & mways is 130kph,Reduces to 110kph when raining
People like you are wasting the air which could pump up a bike tyre.
& no ,I used to do it all this for a living. How UK & spanish rules interact with EU legislation for vehicular traffic & why I gave up acting for brits as they all knowitall.

What is the speed limit when towing a trailer in France?

Caravan / trailer speed limits

	Motorways	Other roads
Under 3.5t	130 km/h	80 km/h
3.5t to 12t	90 km/h	80 km/h
Over 12t	90 km/h	60 km/h

In the Uk ,i do.

neither of them actually do that, they just enforce what has been dreamt up by even more stupid elected politicians.
It is black & white that modification of the front cross member voids the CoC. If you cannot fit a towbar post 2012 to vans & motorhomes( why did that take 20 years after cars when all supplied towbars were eu homologated ones anyway??) that is not homologated why do people,& those in power, accept that butchering the front of a new vehicle to allow something to tow it which it wasn't designed to do, breaches its pedestrian safety cell by reinforcing a zone designed to collapse in the event of an accident & allowing all this without any type of testing or homologation.
The Uk just allows these things to coast along until some catastrophe happens .

Additionally this***

mechanical modification to the vehicle voiding its Cert of Conformity.
mechanical modifications to the vehicle untested by sva .
no updated CoC
if towing points not removed when in use contravenes C&u regs for pedestrian safety.
illegal modifications in contravention of the 2007 anti-tuning directive( doubtful if the UK have removed this from the statue books yet)
you can amass a list if they want to.**

was the basis of an accepted EU complaint to both the EU; UK GOV: & DVSA in 2015 that was moving forward until brexit intervened. It was suspended until outcome was finalised & once Uk was out, 31st december 2020, was discontinued by the EU.

Gus you are the one talking B…..X, this is meant to be fun

(ref the French speed bit, I think you would struggle to find an A-frame motorhome outfit under 3.5t - which includes the weight of the trailer for this legislation), therefore the 80/90 kph applies.

The bold type was to differentiate between your text, rather than shouting which would be achieved through the use of capitals generally, not something I would advocate. For some reason I don't have the knack of just pulling out your text, that related to my comments critiqued by you in your usual elequant style, so that I could provide my response. But I am sorry if that upset you.

Provided it satisfies the standards set out in the Department for Transport guidance, which should answer the irrelevant points you raise, A-framing is legal in the UK. I have no doubt that you genuinely believe you are right In the rest of your opinion, but you’re not (in regards to the UK).

Use of A-frames in EU is at the risk of being reported and dealt with, but seems to be ignored by French authorities generally, so I am happy to chance it for the convenience. Besides which the Vienna Convention could be relied upon - well sort off.

 

[TonyEmm]

The TUV will be to exempt the French registered vehicles. It is not legal in some EU countries to tow a vehicle if the vehicles are registered in that country. In the UK it is legal with UK registered vehicles.

Example. In France a caravan has to be registered and tested as a separate vehicle. Yet you bowl up with your UK registered motor tugging a Swift whatever, it's legal. That is due to international legislation wh8ch the attached explains.

The file you attached is not a legal document. It’s one a-frame suppliers spin on their view of the regulations,(and they all have their own version!).

In France, the towing of one motorised vehicle with another is specifically excluded under the French Highway Code, the Code de la Route https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/texte_lc/LEGITEXT000006074228/2022-07-29/. There is an exception for a broken down vehicle to be recovered only to a place of safety, but on Motorways, it is an offence not to use a registered recovery operator.
There are similar rules in place in Germany, Spain, Portugal and Italy.

That said, enforcement is patchy at best but one FB group member was fined 3 weeks ago in Germany.

 

[TonyEmm]

Just curious as i has assumed based on "forum info" that A frames were illegal in France. Bumped into a guy here in CH and he had this installed on his van:



From this company: Systeme Blue

Maybe my info is wrong or i'm missing something but it looks up to date and very much legit, they claim to be TUV certified which basically means any where in the EU is OK and trust me if they are accepted here in CH then they will have done tons of paperwork on them. Maybe they are just stupidly expensive ? prices shown are around £2.5k installed, no idea how this compares.

Thought this might be useful for those with A frame anxiety in France and Spain etc.

The Système Bleu a-frame is made in Castres in The Tarn. it is basically a Caratow a-frame which I understand was made under licence in France.

It is no more legal in France than any British made a-frame. It is not tuv certified or homologated. Any reference to certification only refers to the ALKO towing coupling which has been tested in it’s own right in accordance with Directive 94/20EC.

Additionally, following the Vienna Convention 1968 on Road Traffic, the UNECE introduced regulation 13 regarding braking. Para 5.2.2.2 of that regulation specifically outlaws inertia braked couplings on anything other than centre axle trailers, which includes a-frames.

The Système Bleu is inertia braked and therefore falls out the UNECE regulation.

in both UNECE regs and EU regs, their definition of a ‘trailer’ varies from the U.K. ‘s Construction & Use regulations. The former require the vehicle to be designed to be towed by a motorised vehicle where C&U regs include designed or adapted.

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[TonyEmm]

I shall have to see if I can find out what the outcome was.

The DVSA showed a lot of interest in that particular incident but in the end didn’t pursue it, referring to the age of the vehicle. It was almost 11 years old. I was advised though that the supplier ‘was working closely with the DVSA’ so there was some investigation.
Trading Standards showed rather more interest as there were claims of misrepresentation and mis-selling, as well as it being illegal with no emergency breakaway system fitted.
The subject of maintenance and inspections was raised (which the owner failed to do) but, the counter to that is that the company never offered an inspection/maintenance regime. That position has now changed.

Sadly, there has been another major A -FRAME failure in recent weeks. Details are still sketchy but this vehicle is a Fiat Panda Cross, 2020 registered, with an a-frame no more than 3 months old. On it’s first long trip around Europe the front impact protection beam failed after less than 1000 miles of being towed. The owner is in contact with the supplier, trying to resolve the issue.

 

[martin2603]

It is strange regarding the selling of items namely E Scooters in this country , which are NOT legal for use on footpaths here unless on a local Authority Trial .The seller calmly tells the buyer that they are not Road Footpath legal , takes the money and waves him goodbye as he rides off along the pavement. Notwithstanding the numbers of school kids riding two up to school. Of course , it’s only illegal if you get caught!!

 

[TonyEmm]

It is strange regarding the selling of items namely E Scooters in this country , which are NOT legal for use on footpaths here unless on a local Authority Trial .The seller calmly tells the buyer that they are not Road Footpath legal , takes the money and waves him goodbye as he rides off along the pavement. Notwithstanding the numbers of school kids riding two up to school. Of course , it’s only illegal if you get caught!!

One example of a number of things that are illegal to use but not illegal to supply!

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[eddie]

So we’re all agreed then after all of that

1. 100% Legal in the UK
2. No on cares in real terms in France
3. You ‘may’ pay a small fine in Spain if your extremely lucky or drive like a dick

So in conclusion A Frame away

 

[Don Campbell]

The systeme bleu video posted by the OP is dated 2013. A lot has changed since then but I believe it's still OK to use an A frame in Switzerland (which is not in the EU) as I know someone who does, but you will get clobbered in Spain for sure and possibly also in France, although the French often turn a blind eye (a bit like they do along the coast when rubber boats are being launched for day trips around the bay presumably!!)

 

[Headrush]

One example of a number of things that are illegal to use but not illegal to supply!

They're not illegal to use. They're illegal on public land/highways. You're perfectly entitled to use one on your own private property or with permission, on other people's property.

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[Midnightflyer]

Never had a problem with my 'A Frame' purchased from Towbars 2 Tow Cars at Grimsby. They supplied all the relevant paperwork and when in Santander visited ITV Test Centre the equivalent to our VOSA and for a fee of 40 Euros they inspected it together with its brake control and produced an approval certificate. The manager said he didn't know what all the fuss was about. I then carried on for 3 touring Spain with the car on the 'A Frame' was asked by Traffico once in a service station to produce my paperwork which they accepted and let us go on our journey.
Sold that motorhome on with the car and 'A Frame' over 2 years ago and the present owner is presently in Spain and has never been stopped.

 

[TimSam]

Doesn't look like you're allowed to tow.
Gendarmerie nationale
MINISTÈRE DE L'INTÉRIEUR
PEUT-ON TRACTER UNE VOITURE AVEC UN CAMPING-CAR ?
La circulation d'un ensemble composé d'un véhicule à moteur (éventuellement un camping car) remorquant un autre véhicule à moteur n'est pas conforme à la réglementation routière.
Seul le cas particulier de la panne ou de l'accident peut justifier le remorquage d'un véhicule par un autre, sous réserve que cette opération s'effectue dans des conditions précises.
La seule façon licite de tracter une voiture à l'arrière d'un camping-car est d'utiliser une remorque adaptée et ayant fait l'objet d'une réception.

Google translation is;
The circulation of a set consisting of a motor vehicle (possibly a motorhome) towing another motor vehicle does not comply with road regulations.
Only the specific case of a breakdown or accident can justify the towing of one vehicle by another, provided that this operation is carried out under specific conditions.
The only lawful way to tow a car behind a motorhome is to use a suitable trailer that has been approved.

 

[minesapint]

You can't claim its legal in France because its legal in the UK as it is NOT legal in the UK it has just never been proved to be illegal as there has not been a legal test case.

Why is it A Framers always want to bend the rules to suit themselves rather than just accept its not legal.

We do not want to bend any rules, I have the latest version of an Aframe it brakes on all four wheels, activated by the towing vehicle and on board electronics the car has triangle markings on the rear and the towing vehicles number plate is on the towed vehicle. It is a lot safer than putting the car on a two wheel overide braked trailer.
If you have not tried it do not knock it, and according to local plod it is perfectly legal in the UK.

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[Lenny HB]

We do not want to bend any rules, I have the latest version of an Aframe it brakes on all four wheels, activated by the towing vehicle and on board electronics the car has triangle markings on the rear and the towing vehicles number plate is on the towed vehicle. It is a lot safer than putting the car on a two wheel overide braked trailer.
If you have not tried it do not knock it, and according to local plod it is perfectly legal in the UK.

Haven't knocked it just fed up with A Frames moaning & trying to claim its legal when it's not.

 

[David and Sally]

Haven't knocked it just fed up with A Frames moaning & trying to claim its legal when it's not.

Isn't the thing about the UK that it's legal until laws saying otherwise are passed? In France everything is illegal unless laws are passed saying legal.?

 

[david Mulholland]

Here we go again. They are considered illegal in Europe. Especially Spain and France. Some get away with it, some pay the price. How lucky do you feel?

Only vehicles being recovered can have their wheels on the ground.

just maybe the clue is in the statement that only recovery cars can have their wheels off the ground looking at the A-Frame all wheels are on the ground that's why its certified, probably.

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[David and Sally]

just maybe the clue is in the statement that only recovery cars can have their wheels off the ground looking at the A-Frame all wheels are on the ground that's why its certified, probably.

I was corrected. Recovered vehicles have to be off the ground. I think dollies are allowed but only for very short distances.

Either way, A Frames are taboo in Europe.

 

[TheTwoOfUs]

I look forward to the annual reverse an A-frame tournament

 

[L' Hobo]

I look forward to the annual reverse an A-frame tournament

Oh I wish, probably Jaws could add it to the Thetford Swaffham Bash next year?

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[tonyidle]

Somewhere, buried in trailer C&U legislation, is the requirement that a trailer must be able to be reversed under control without the driver leaving the towing vehicle. And yes I have seen the You Tube video of a towed Smart car being reversed on full opposite lock with tyres scrubbing. The inability to reverse an A frame into a side road to turn around is what made me decide on a trailer even for UK use.

 

[TonyEmm]

So we’re all agreed then after all of that

1. 100% Legal in the UK
2. No on cares in real terms in France
3. You ‘may’ pay a small fine in Spain if your extremely lucky or drive like a dick

So in conclusion A Frame away

It is not 100% legal in the uk, they are accepted (wit( conditions) by the DfT but that’s not the same thing! Until there is a test case in the courts, they have no legal standing.

 

[TonyEmm]

The only that’s certificated on the Systeme Bleu a-frame is the ALKO coupling, nothing else!

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