A frames in France ? why do they build, certificate and sell them if they are illegal ? (1 Viewer)

[Jim]

No-one has ever been brought to court in the UK for this offence, UK for this offence,

What offence?

 

[TCG]

Why not just tow a trailer?

Big horrible bulky things, that you then have to store on your pitch (i know you can store the car on the trailer)

 

[L' Hobo]

What offence?

I'm not sure but possibly, C & U 'Hazardous Load' regulations?

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[OldCodger]

What offence?

I’m sure someone will take one?

I have found this discussion very interesting and it has helped me understand why this is such a tough area to understand!

The linked provided to HMG Web page

A-frames

www.gov.uk

Uses very loose words/phrases. E.g it says

When an A-frame is attached to a vehicle (eg a motor car) we consider the A-frame and car temporarily become a single unit. When towed by another motor vehicle (eg motorhome) we believe that this single unit is, for the purposes of its construction, treated in GB legislation as a trailer.


We consider and we believe are not legal terms. At best they hint that the DoT are expressing an opinion. Based on this opinion they go on to say, in effect” “As we see it as a trailer, provided these regulations are met, you can use it”

So in that respect it isn’t “legal” because it isn’t enshrined in a law. It’s not even a regulation issued under a law, it’s merely a government depts opinion. Which has never been tested in the courts. As such it is fair to say it is not yet “illegal” either.

So they are “allowed” on the roads in GB provided they meet all those regulations for a trailer. This will be the case until it is tested in court and fails.

However HMGs “opinion” is likely not a good basis for something being permitted on the autobahns and routes national in Europe.

“Do you feel lucky punk?” is the phrase that springs to mind.

I’m not a lawyer and no doubt one will be along soon to point out my logic errors!

 

[62272]

OK I was being a bit facetious. In my experience the sieves analogy is something I would not recognise. We can agree to disagree on other aspects of A-frame legality, pending an actual reported case on the point. As thing stand the rozzers are unlikely to prosecute unless they can point to a breach of the construction and use regs applicable to trailers. This question will remain a lacuna for a long time, maybe indefinitely.

The sieves analogy is something taught by many legislation trainers, if you think about it thats exactly how the law is applied. When there is no absolute offence for something then you should test it against the points to prove for any related legislation, if it does not meet every point to prove then it fails, and you have to look for other legislation, until you have exhausted everything you can think of. Alternatively you can keep hiring expensive barristers until you will find one that is willing to give it a run using some spurious case law, or thought process known only to them, and hope the judge (or jury) will find in their favour.

In the case of the UK illegality on A frames I don't agree to disagree, I am right until a court finds otherwise or the law changes

 

[SpeedyDux]

The sieves analogy is something taught by many legislation trainers, if you think about it thats exactly how the law is applied. When there is no absolute offence for something then you should test it against the points to prove for any related legislation, if it does not meet every point to prove then it fails, and you have to look for other legislation, until you have exhausted everything you can think of. Alternatively you can keep hiring expensive barristers until you will find one that is willing to give it a run using some spurious case law, or thought process known only to them, and hope the judge (or jury) will find in their favour.

In the case of the UK illegality on A frames I don't agree to disagree, I am right until a court finds otherwise or the law changes

Strangely, sieves never got a mention in any seminars or CPD courses that I attended. I must have practiced law in a parallel universe.

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[62272]

Strangely, sieves never got a mention in any seminars or CPD courses that I attended. I must have practiced law in a parallel universe.

There we are, you’ve just learnt something. As they say, every day is a school day

 

[62272]

I’m sure someone will take one?

I have found this discussion very interesting and it has helped me understand why this is such a tough area to understand!

The linked provided to HMG Web page

A-frames

www.gov.uk

Uses very loose words/phrases. E.g it says

When an A-frame is attached to a vehicle (eg a motor car) we consider the A-frame and car temporarily become a single unit. When towed by another motor vehicle (eg motorhome) we believe that this single unit is, for the purposes of its construction, treated in GB legislation as a trailer.


We consider and we believe are not legal terms. At best they hint that the DoT are expressing an opinion. Based on this opinion they go on to say, in effect” “As we see it as a trailer, provided these regulations are met, you can use it”

So in that respect it isn’t “legal” because it isn’t enshrined in a law. It’s not even a regulation issued under a law, it’s merely a government depts opinion. Which has never been tested in the courts. As such it is fair to say it is not yet “illegal” either.

So they are “allowed” on the roads in GB provided they meet all those regulations for a trailer. This will be the case until it is tested in court and fails.

However HMGs “opinion” is likely not a good basis for something being permitted on the autobahns and routes national in Europe.

“Do you feel lucky punk?” is the phrase that springs to mind.

I’m not a lawyer and no doubt one will be along soon to point out my logic errors!

You misunderstand the British Constitution. Everything you do must not be enshrined in law, how do you think the human race evolved over millennia.

If there is no law that prevents it, you can do it. Simple as.

A prosecuting authority must work within the confines of the law, if the law is silent on something, then there is no offence (unless we lived in an autocracy - which I’m thankful to say we do not).

 

[Lenny HB]

Vienna Convention does permit visiting traffic which is legal in one signatory state to be used temporarily in that of another.

But that is irrelevant as they are not legal in the UK.

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[Jim]

But that is irrelevant as they are not legal in the UK.

Everyone is too quick with the illegal stuff

Illegal to wildcamp
illegal to DIY fill calor bottles
Illegal to tow an with an A frame

It should be illegal to shout that legal things are illegal

 

[OldCodger]

Everyone is too quick with the illegal stuff

Illegal to wildcamp
illegal to DIY fill calor bottles
Illegal to tow an with an A frame

It should be illegal to shout that legal things are illegal

But haven’t we just established that unless it is illegal you can do it?

 

[Lenny HB]

Everyone is too quick with the illegal stuff

Illegal to wildcamp
illegal to DIY fill calor bottles
Illegal to tow an with an A frame

It should be illegal to shout that legal things are illegal

Yes but with A frames they are neither legal or illegal so someone pointing out that its legal in other countries under the Vienna convention is just wrong which is what my point was.

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[Realist]

God help me, has Tony the trailer replied yet?

 

[OldCodger]

You misunderstand the British Constitution. Everything you do must not be enshrined in law, how do you think the human race evolved over millennia.

If there is no law that prevents it, you can do it. Simple as.

A prosecuting authority must work within the confines of the law, if the law is silent on something, then there is no offence (unless we lived in an autocracy - which I’m thankful to say we do not).

I knew I had a logic flaw somewhere…. So as it is not illegal, why does it need a DoT web page saying under what circumstances you CAN do it? (I.e. is there a missing piece of information which says why you might not be able to do it in GB?)

 

[62272]

Yes but with A frames they are neither legal or illegal so someone pointing out that its legal in other countries under the Vienna convention is just wrong which is what my point was.

No Lenny, the Vienna convention is to allow vehicles from other signatories to drive in your country (assuming you are a signatory and have not derogated parts of the text) if it is legal in the other country.

I think I have established that A frames are legal in the UK. The fact that you and many others cant get their head around it, isn’t the fault of the many motorhomers who use them legally in the UK.

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[62272]

But haven’t we just established that unless it is illegal you can do it?

Absolutely, totally correct

 

[Lenny HB]

No Lenny, the Vienna convention is to allow vehicles from other signatories to drive in your country (assuming you are a signatory and have not derogated parts of the text) if it is legal in the other country.

I think I have established that A frames are legal in the UK. The fact that you and many others cant get their head around it, isn’t the fault of the many motorhomers who use them legally in the UK.

But they are not legal in the UK just never been proven they are illegal which doesn't make them legal.

I just wish they would ban them, it would stop all these silly arguments about them.

 

[62272]

I knew I had a logic flaw somewhere…. So as it is not illegal, why does it need a DoT web page saying under what circumstances you CAN do it? (I.e. is there a missing piece of information which says why you might not be able to do it in GB?)

They are trying to be helpful as they are probably fed up of all the queries from the non A-frame loving motorhome fun gang sending them emails

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[62272]

But they are not legal in the UK just never been proven they are illegal which doesn't make them legal.

I just wish they would ban them, it would stop all these silly arguments about them.

I just wish they’d ban people that dont like them .

But we wouldn’t be having all this fun if they did

 

[Lenny HB]

I'm not against A Frames just pissed of with all the A Frame users trying to claim they are legal, if they want to take the risk fine but don't keep ramming down everyone else's throats.

 

[Jim]

Yes but with A frames they are neither legal or illegal so someone pointing out that its legal in other countries under the Vienna convention is just wrong which is what my point was.

My point was, they are not illegal here

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[Tigertom]

Yes but with A frames they are neither legal or illegal so someone pointing out that its legal in other countries under the Vienna convention is just wrong which is what my point was.

I love a viennetta.........if they're having a convention I'm up for it

 

[TCG]

But they are not legal in the UK just never been proven they are illegal which doesn't make them legal.

I just wish they would ban them, it would stop all these silly arguments about them.

or people could stop getting upset about it and let the A framers get on with it.. if we get fined, so what

 

[Jim]

if we get fined, so what

You won't. The Old Bill would need an offence to charge you with. No such thing exists at the moment.

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[62272]

I'm not against A Frames just pissed of with all the A Frame users trying to claim they are legal, if they want to take the risk fine but don't keep ramming down everyone else's throats.

Lenny there are so many benefits to A-framing, you should give it a go

 

[Lenny HB]

Lenny there are so many benefits to A-framing, you should give it a go

No thanks used to be a tugger never want to tow anything ever again.
Can't see any benifits we nearly always manage to park where we want to go.

 

[TCG]

No thanks used to be a tugger never want to tow anything ever again.
Can't see any benifits we nearly always manage to park where we want to go.

and that is the point many motorhomers will use aires which are close to where they want to be. other motorhomers want to stay on campsites which could mean travelling to locations via a small car
we are all different, and no way is the correct way

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[Larrynwin]

God help me, has Tony the trailer replied yet?

Please nooooooo

 

[OldCodger]

Can I just check is this…

 

[emjaiuk]

But they are not legal in the UK just never been proven they are illegal which doesn't make them legal.

I just wish they would ban them, it would stop all these silly arguments about them.

I do hope that was posted tongue in cheek. If you don’t like the argument, don’t get involved, simple. We’ve A framed throughout Europe including Spain for over 20 years. Authorities attitudes changed and now we don’, also simple.

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