A frames in France ? why do they build, certificate and sell them if they are illegal ? (2 Viewers)

[Shrimp]

We used to take our toad to France when we were house sitting in the winter.
From Calais to below Cherbourg on the A-frame and never got stopped.
We have also seen French Camping Cars with a car on an A-frame.

 

[L' Hobo]

Just curious as i has assumed based on "forum info" that A frames were illegal in France. Bumped into a guy here in CH and he had this installed on his van:



From this company: Systeme Blue

Maybe my info is wrong or i'm missing something but it looks up to date and very much legit, they claim to be TUV certified which basically means any where in the EU is OK and trust me if they are accepted here in CH then they will have done tons of paperwork on them. Maybe they are just stupidly expensive ? prices shown are around £2.5k installed, no idea how this compares.

Thought this might be useful for those with A frame anxiety in France and Spain etc.

Many years ago, I toured all over Australia as a Holden Car Display & Stunt Team 'Roustabout' (working foreman) for a FRENCH TEAM.

If there was a problem, when it could proven, without doubt, that it was a French man to blame for the problem, it was never accepted by management and there must be another reason! ( part of me, grudgingly, admire this)

IF its BUILT in France, it's probably accepted by the French Authorities?

 

[62272]

We A frame all over France regularly and have been passed by many a gendarmerie and Police municiple without so much as a flinch.

If stopped I will rely on the Vienna convention, or pay a fine. Certainly saved thousands in car rental fees in the years we have been doing it, and it’s a perfectly safe method of towing, with a minimal MPG difference.

Other than third hand accounts on these forums (a friend of a friend) I’ve not heard of people being stopped and fined. I am sure one day some bored Gendarme will think about it….

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[yodeli]

We A framed a toad and RV for 20 years in Spain without a problem. Didn’t make it legal, just that plod used to turn a blind eye. Now they no longer do.
As far as I’m aware there is more than one French A frame manufacture. Perhaps we could ask yodeli if could could post a question on one of the French CAMPING-CAR forums regarding the legality of towing a car behind a motorhome When she gets time. The only reason we stopped was that we changed the RV for a European motorhome, and I stopped getting free ferry tickets

Hi
I've had a quick look, but being too busy preparing my work for tomorrow I didn't get it all.
Mainly some say yes allowed and some no. So if you're not in a hurry I will have a better look in a few days , when I'm settled with the work. I will try to make a summary of all the articles I've read on the matter!
Frankie

 

[emjaiuk]

Thanks Frankie, your a star, include my three grandsons in your collection and you’d be perfect

 

[stevewagner]

You can't claim its legal in France because its legal in the UK as it is NOT legal in the UK it has just never been proved to be illegal as there has not been a legal test case.

Why is it A Framers always want to bend the rules to suit themselves rather than just accept its not legal.

I think it’s the same with all kinds of rule bending e.g. taking food etc.

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[62272]

You can't claim its legal in France because its legal in the UK as it is NOT legal in the UK it has just never been proved to be illegal as there has not been a legal test case.

Why is it A Framers always want to bend the rules to suit themselves rather than just accept its not legal.

Wrong. It is not illegal in the UK.

A-frames

www.gov.uk

 

[TCG]

A framed twice a year for the last 6 years..never had an issue. We were stopped 3years ago by the police as the road ahead was closed due to a RTA...the police officer helped me in uncouple the a frame. Then guided me to reverse and then even helped me to attach A frame back again...
Would not risk it in Spain

I have spoken to many people and have yet to find anyone who has recieved a fine

 

[Minxy]

Wrong. It is not illegal in the UK.

A-frames

www.gov.uk

He's not wrong ... that is the DOT's view, it hasn't been definitively set in law as being legal.

You need to read the final 'caveat' paragraphs especially the last sentence which I've bolded:

Use of A-frame outside UK​

The views expressed above are only applicable for the UK. We understand that these view are not shared in other European countries and we would not recommend use of an A-frame outside the UK without some investigation of the rules that apply in the relevant country. We are unable to comment on, or enter into correspondence on, the situation in other countries as this will be governed by their domestic laws, together with the Vienna Convention.

We would remind users that the views expressed above relate solely to the technical requirements for a motor vehicle when being used with an A-frame. Users should satisfy themselves that they comply with all other aspects of road traffic law that may apply whether the towed vehicle is viewed as a trailer or as a motor vehicle.

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[62272]

I’m satisfied (as per the last para), thank you

 

[gus-lopez]

This combination of vehicles:-

• Are legally owned by a person normally resident in the United Kingdom;
• They are registered in the United Kingdom
• They are temporarily imported into another EU State as “vehicles in international traffic” within the meaning of the Vienna Convention on

<Broken link removed>
The UK Department For Transport recognise that when an "A" frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (e.g. motorhome) the "A" frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in legislation as a trailer.
This vehicle adapted to be a trailer, is identified as a trailer by displaying reflective triangles and the registration number of the towing vehicle with its home state on the registration plate.
The trailer system has power assisted brakes, operated by the brakes of the towing vehicle being pressed.
The lights on the trailer vehicle duplicate those of the towing vehicle.
As a consequence the car/trailer meets the UK technical requirements for trailers when used on the road. Category O2: Trailers with a maximum mass exceeding 0.75 tonnes but not exceeding 3.5 tonnes
These requirements are contained within the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 (SI 1986/1078) as amended (C&U) and the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 (SI 1989/1796) as amended (RVLR) as implemented by European Community Directive 71/320/EEC, along with its various amending Directives, and UNECE Regulation No.13. 2014

But as it is not defined as officially 'Legal' in the Uk the Vienna convention does not encompass it.

You can't claim its legal in France because its legal in the UK as it is NOT legal in the UK it has just never been proved to be illegal as there has not been a legal test case.

Why is it A Framers always want to bend the rules to suit themselves rather than just accept its not legal.

Exactly!

Spanish towing regulations for example were designed as far as I am aware to prohibit towrope use.

No ,it is any type of towing including steel bars done privately.

Wrong. It is not illegal in the UK.

A-frames

www.gov.uk

Nor is it 'legal' It is " accepted" at present. That is why you cannot use the Vienna convention as it isn't 'legally' 'legal' in the UK.

 

[62272]

But as it is not defined as officially 'Legal' in the Uk the Vienna convention does not encompass it.

Exactly!

No ,it is any type of towing including steel bars done privately.

Nor is it 'legal' It is " accepted" at present. That is why you cannot use the Vienna convention as it isn't 'legally' 'legal' in the UK.

I wondered when you would put your comment in

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[JockandRita]

Sheddy. Eddy, IIRC, I'm sure that Geo & Pam were pulled, whilst towing a toad abroad with their RV some years ago.
I think they uncoupled the toad, which Pam then drove to their next destination.

Cheers

Jock.

 

[Larrynwin]

Sheddy. Eddy, IIRC, I'm sure that Geo & Pam were pulled, whilst towing a toad abroad with their RV some years ago.
I think they uncoupled the toad, which Pam then drove to their next destination.

Cheers

Jock.

I thought it was Bryan and Susie ? not sure as cannot remember their names, who used to moderate for Jim.

 

[Rob Turner]

Why not just tow a trailer?

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[Jim]

So based on some posts in this thread, for anything at all to be legal, there needs to be a court case to decide it is.

 

[Coolcats]

The RAC say (non A frame specific) so this could be both using a tow rope, a tow bar or possibly an A frame as it only mentions the trailer.

Towing in France

On a standard driving licence, motorists are allowed to tow a trailer with a maximum authorised mass of 750kg, including the trailer and its load.

You’re not allowed to tow a motor vehicle except in the event of a breakdown or an accident and if the distance to be travelled is short. This practice is banned on motorways where the assistance of a recovery vehicle must be sought.

Driving in France Advice | What Are The Laws? | RAC Drive

Driving in France is very different to driving in the UK . Find out everything you need to know and need to take with you before you go.

www.rac.co.uk

 

[62272]

So based on some posts in this thread, for anything at all to be legal, there needs to be a court case to decide it is.

I think you’ll find its the other way around Jim. You can do anything you like in the country provided it is not illegal. In British law, a statute has been passed, or secondary legislation or in the case of the subject matter, a court ruling on the compliance (or otherwise) of something under dispute.

Assuming that there was ever a court case brought (and there has been enough time to have brought one if the authorities were interested) then that determination, if not successfully challenged on appeal by a higher court, would be the new legal position. Or new statutory legislation made it illegal (to be decided on by the courts in the case of any doubt).

The reason it is illegal on the continent is that most EU countries adopted the EU traffic legislation which specifically defines a trailer as something which has been designed to be pulled by a vehicle. A definition also used under the Vienna Convention (mentioned by Gus). Whereas the UK did not adopt that part of the legislation and stuck with the UK legislation (Con & Use regs), therefore this definition does not apply to the UK.

So provided all the aspects of a trailer for the purposes of towing in UK legislation is satisfied, the use of an A frame to tow a car behind another vehicle renders the towed vehicle a trailer.

Type approval etc, etc, to do with specifically designed and manufactured trailers also are not applicable, as the TOAD becomes a trailer at the point it is attached and towed on a public road, and has not been manufactured as a trailer.

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[Jim]

I think you’ll find its the other way around Jim.

I was being ironic . A frame use is 100% legal in this country, until such time as it is 100% illegal.

For the record, in 35 years, I've never towed a toad. Nor would I while I can still ride a bike. If you tow one to a rally, that smile you get when you are greeted by the rally marshall is a forced one! Toads are a PITA on a rally field

 

[JockandRita]

I thought it was Bryan and Susie ? not sure as cannot remember their names, who used to moderate for Jim.

Larry, that might have been KandS, Keith & Sharon, who I believe were travelling with Geo & Pam at the time. All three couples often travelled together in the early days.

Cheers,

Jock.

 

[62272]

I was being ironic . A frame use is 100% legal in this country, until such time as it is 100% illegal.

For the record, in 35 years, I've never towed a toad. Nor would I while I can still ride a bike. If you tow one to a rally, that smile you get when you are greeted by the rally marshall is a forced one! Toads are a PITA on a rally field

What is it they say, there‘s nought as weird as folk aside from thee and me, and thee’s a bit weird too

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[SpeedyDux]

I agree with Minxy and gus-lopez, and in some respects I agree with Chazzer924's post.

The DoT's assumption that a car+A-frame becomes a trailer (for the UK only) is basically a fudge that skirts around the lack of legislation that is really necessary to remove any doubt that A-frames can be legally used on public roads in the UK. I would not rely on the DoT as an authority for the legal situation, in the event of the issue being tried by a court of law. The judge might choose to follow the DoT's guidance, or the judge might disregard it. Who can say. If the judge has an inherent bias against motorhomes, caravans etc. the outcome will not make A-frame users and manufacturers happy.

It's a bit like the never-ending debate whether a restrictive covenant that prohibits keeping a caravan on your drive also includes a motorhome or campervan. This uncertain legal issue awaits a test case on interpretation. Or, new legislation.

 

[62272]

I agree with Minxy and gus-lopez, and in some respects I agree with Chazzer924's post.

The DoT's assumption that a car+A-frame becomes a trailer (for the UK only) is basically a fudge that skirts around the lack of legislation that is really necessary to remove any doubt that A-frames can be legally used on public roads in the UK. I would not rely on the DoT as an authority for the legal situation, in the event of the issue being tried by a court of law. The judge might choose to follow the DoT's guidance, or the judge might disregard it. Who can say. If the judge has an inherent bias against motorhomes, caravans etc. the outcome will not make A-frame users and manufacturers happy.

It's a bit like the never-ending debate whether a restrictive covenant that prohibits keeping a caravan on your drive also includes a motorhome or campervan. This uncertain legal issue awaits a test case on interpretation. Or, new legislation.

The law works like a series of sieves in determining if something is illegal (assuming it is not caught through the first sieve outright). In the case of A frames, the court would have to determine why it is not legal, not just make a decision it is illegal because it feels like it, or the judge is against motorhomers.

The way the current UK legislation stands, the A frame use falls through the legislation sieves and comes out the bottom unscathed (maybe a little scraped ), therefore there is no reason for it to be challenged in court. Believe me if there was a legal reason to challenge it, an authority would have done it by now… there are enough of them (authorities).

In the case of EU legislation (relevant parts not adopted by the UK), then the A frame use stops at the first sieve on pure definition alone.

 

[62272]

Next

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[Coolcats]

Just a thought, going above the stated speed limit in France is a finable offence, I once come over the Honflur bridge at a fair pace, halfway down I spotted the French police and said to my wife I am going to be nicked for speeding. To my utter relief the produced a breathalyser bag which was all clear and waived on my way.

The reason I am saying this is that yes you may 'get away' with the A-frame but if you have an accident it could be a whole different story...

 

[SpeedyDux]

The law works like a series of sieves in determining if something is illegal (assuming it is not caught through the first sieve outright). In the case of A frames, the court would have to determine why it is not legal, not just make a decision it is illegal because it feels like it, or the judge is against motorhomers.

The way the current UK legislation stands, the A frame use falls through the legislation sieves and comes out the bottom unscathed (maybe a little scraped ), therefore there is no reason for it to be challenged in court. Believe me if there was a legal reason to challenge it, an authority would have done it by now… there are enough of them (authorities).

In the case of EU legislation (relevant parts not adopted by the UK), then the A frame use stops at the first sieve on pure definition alone.

Unfortunately there is no mention of sieves in the index to Wilkinson's Road Traffic Offences.

 

[62272]

Just a thought, going above the stated speed limit in France is a finable offence, I once come over the Honflur bridge at a fair pace, halfway down I spotted the French police and said to my wife I am going to be nicked for speeding. To my utter relief the produced a breathalyser bag which was all clear and waived on my way.

The reason I am saying this is that yes you may 'get away' with the A-frame but if you have an accident it could be a whole different story...

The officer was probably trying to bag a drink driver for the overtime towards the end of their shift

The A frame accident scenario in the EU, it’s a chance one takes if you decide to take it abroad. It‘s all down to interpretation and the level of reasoned risk one is prepared to take.

If you are unsure, then simply don't do it, a bit like speeding, don't do the crime if you can’t take the time.

Ref A framing, my insurers and underwriters are fully happy to take the risk (outside the UK), and the Vienna Convention does permit visiting traffic which is legal in one signatory state to be used temporarily in that of another. Although its not to say that signatory state could exclude something if they want to. Time will tell.

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[62272]

Unfortunately there is no mention of sieves in the index to Wilkinson's Road Traffic Offences.

Pehaps you can point to the illegality in Wilkinson’s or Stones for that matter?

 

[SpeedyDux]

Pehaps you can point to the illegality in Wilkinson’s or Stones for that matter?

OK I was being a bit facetious. In my experience the sieves analogy is something I would not recognise. We can agree to disagree on other aspects of A-frame legality, pending an actual reported case on the point. As thing stand the rozzers are unlikely to prosecute unless they can point to a breach of the construction and use regs applicable to trailers. This question will remain a lacuna for a long time, maybe indefinitely.

 

[L' Hobo]

So based on some posts in this thread, for anything at all to be legal, there needs to be a court case to decide it is.

I'm no Lawyer but, the way it was explained to my for my HGV & PSV Transport Managers Exam was,

most, if not all, laws have to go to court and a judgement made. This judgement sets a 'Precedent' for future cases to be judged against.

No-one has ever been brought to court in the UK for this offence, so, despite the law sitting on the statue books, because it has never been challenged and judged, it remains a grey area!

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