A frames in France ? why do they build, certificate and sell them if they are illegal ? (2 Viewers)

[62272]

Not forgetting, of course, if your driving licence covers the weight of the 'trailor'/Toad

And also the train weight of your towing vehicle.

 

[tonyidle]

The C&U regs '86; sections 83-93 concern trailers and sidecars. Nowhere is it mentioned that a trailer must be capable of being reversed?

section 106 which is in relation to reversing is not relevant, and I cannot see anything remotely applicable under these regs, unless it is in another statutory document, or relates to the design of trailers?

The DOT A Frame guidance also does not list it as a requirement, and in my professional life I do not remember hearing of it.

I note it is quoted on here (forum threads) regularly as being a Con & Use requirement?? Not sure where it stems from as I also cannot find it in the text, annexes or definitions and even tried a key word search on the entire regulations .

You might be correct. It was also a distant memory for me. Along with another one that said that steerable trailers could only be used with vehicles over 3500kg.

 

[62272]

You might be correct. It was also a distant memory for me. Along with another one that said that steerable trailers could only be used with vehicles over 3500kg.

Cheers Tony. there are so many amendments to C&U that I’d need to unpick each one, as the OPI site does not show the fully amended version, just the original enacted version. I used to have access to the legal database at work but it is too expensive to maintain privately.

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[OldCodger]

It would depend on your specific unit and the type of mechanism used to do the braking. It sounds that any incompatibility to EU technical requirements (assuming that those aspects have been adopted by UK legislation) would mean they are incompatible and therefore illegal. Albeit you would have to have a public authority (e.g. Police or VOSA) supported by their prosecuting authority (CPS or VOSA prosecution decision makers) seeing that such a breach warranted a prosecution based on charging standards guidelines, and prepared to give it a run in court.

Only once a court has made such a ruling, and dependant on the wording of that ruling as to the application to the type of system/s involved would the current status change.

If you want to be bombproof and not have that concern then you would be better getting a trailer to transport your car (if that is your requirement). If you’ve weighed up the information and happy to proceed knowing all the facts and with your eyes wide open, then A framing is for you. But there is always a risk with innovation.

I get that there are many ways to fall outside the regs - but if someone bought a properly designed A Frame, connected it to a suitable car and did all the right things - they can’t be he considered illegal?

I know you know this stuff, I’m trying to understand the basis of the very real, oft repeated, statement they are not legal. I don’t have a view, but I am trying to understand all sides of the debate.

 

[JockandRita]

I know you know this stuff, I’m trying to understand the basis of the very real, oft repeated, statement they are not legal. I don’t have a view, but I am trying to understand all sides of the debate.

Are you looking to tow a toad Ian, whilst doing your best to remain above the law?

I'm not myself personally, but I would like to know the definitive answer to the question being asked.

Cheers,

Jock.

 

[TonyEmm]

It would depend on your specific unit and the type of mechanism used to do the braking. It sounds that any incompatibility to EU technical requirements (assuming that those aspects have been adopted by UK legislation) would mean they are incompatible and therefore illegal. Albeit you would have to have a public authority (e.g. Police or VOSA) supported by their prosecuting authority (CPS or VOSA prosecution decision makers) seeing that such a breach warranted a prosecution based on charging standards guidelines, and prepared to give it a run in court.

Only once a court has made such a ruling, and dependant on the wording of that ruling as to the application to the type of system/s involved would the current status change.

If you want to be bombproof and not have that concern then you would be better getting a trailer to transport your car (if that is your requirement). If you’ve weighed up the information and happy to proceed knowing all the facts and with your eyes wide open, then A framing is for you. But there is always a risk with innovation.

The Construction & Use regulations refer to EC71/320, EC94/20, EC98/12 and UNECE regulation 13… All are included but, the DfT have chosen not to enforce any of them which makes their stated position a farce.

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[Verteuil Man]

It does now. Boris fixed it.

 

[OldCodger]

Are you looking to tow a toad Ian, whilst doing your best to remain above the law?

I'm not myself personally, but I would like to know the definitive answer to the question being asked.

Cheers,

Jock.

I’d like to know as Betsy is equipped and at the moment (in the UK) I often follow in the car. Im only allowed to drive Betsy for short distances and on my birthday

 

[62272]

I get that there are many ways to fall outside the regs - but if someone bought a properly designed A Frame, connected it to a suitable car and did all the right things - they can’t be he considered illegal?

I know you know this stuff, I’m trying to understand the basis of the very real, oft repeated, statement they are not legal. I don’t have a view, but I am trying to understand all sides of the debate.

I think the issue is many people have carried out their own research and have their own view or have heard the views of others and form an opinion (either for or against).

Ultimately if a prosecution is taken and a court decides on the matter, would we will be sure either one way or another.

As it stands from the DOT guidance notes, provided that they are complied with, it is legal. I hear the term ’tolerated’ however illegal activity is not tolerated by authorities generally, I do say generally, as clearly there are genuine examples where things are tolerated under a risk balanced decision making process. However, in the case of A Frames, if it was clear by the authorities that they were illegal, they would state that fact clearly, equally insurers would then refuse to cover them for use on the roads.

As Tony suggested earlier, it would be far clearer if legislation was introduced cover the specific use of A frames with all the safety and manufacturer requirements… however, personally, I could not see that happening as it really is not a priortity, and there are so few out there.

In terms of a fatal accident with an A frame being the tipping point for a deep dive into all legislation, it would really depend ob the causation factor of the collision. If the A frame was merely involved (driver error being the cause) then the technical requirements of the A frame would be irrelevant given the current DOT guidance.

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[62272]

The Construction & Use regulations refer to EC71/320, EC94/20, EC98/12 and UNECE regulation 13… All are included but, the DfT have chosen not to enforce any of them which makes their stated position a farce.

I suppose it is a question of priorities and resources. i do suspect a lot of the EU legislation (of which there is an abundance, even all-consuming) will be slowly detached from UK legislation given Brexit.

It would be interesting to see the view point of the A frame manufacturers who would clearly have sought counsel advice before proceeding to sell to the UK public.

 

[Minxy]

It would be interesting to see the view point of the A frame manufacturers who would clearly have sought counsel advice before proceeding to sell to the UK public.

I would hope so but I wouldn't bet on it!

 

[62272]

I would hope so but I wouldn't bet on it!

I would virtually guarantee it, unless they are completely stupid.

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[OldCodger]

I would virtually guarantee it, unless they are completely stupid.

If they didn’t and someone proved them illegal the lawyers would have a huge payday!

 

[62272]

If they didn’t and someone proved them illegal the lawyers would have a huge payday!

We could set up a class action

 

[OldCodger]

We could set up a class action

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[Snowflakes]

In debate on this for many years, no real clarification, however ask yourself, is it legal to Tow a non broken down vehicle onto a Motorway in the UK?

 

[OldCodger]

In debate on this for many years, no real clarification, however ask yourself, is it legal to Tow a non broken down vehicle onto a Motorway in the UK?

If it is a properly designed and fitted A Frame meeting all those DoT requirements, yes.

Any other form of towing I’m not sure.

If the advice quoted above is true, in UK law very few things are expressly legal - most laws define what you can’t do, leaving you free to what you want inside those limits.

 

[TheTwoOfUs]

Ian OldCodger I have on occasions thought about A frameing one of our cars but the thing that always puts me off is not being able to reverse them. The pro lobby always come up with the same answer, easy just unhook it and turn it round and then re-connect. That's fine if the road is wide enough but what if you are on a narrow country road with no chance of turning the car round let alone the motorhome? And what if you come face to face with another vehicle which is even bigger and has less chance of reversing than you? Don't even talk to me about how you can reverse a Toad. I have seen the video with the "recommended" method of forcing the front wheels on to full lock and then scrubbing them on the road surface which can't possibly do the steering geometry any good whatsoever. Imagine doing that on a country road where the nearest opportunity to disconnect might be a mile back. I have towed both long and short trailers with either a motorbike or scooter in/on them and have never needed to un-hitch either of them to get out of a difficult situation because I can reverse them.

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[OldCodger]

Ian OldCodger I have on occasions thought about A frameing one of our cars but the thing that always puts me off is not being able to reverse them. The pro lobby always come up with the same answer, easy just unhook it and turn it round and then re-connect. That's fine if the road is wide enough but what if you are on a narrow country road with no chance of turning the car round let alone the motorhome? And what if you come face to face with another vehicle which is even bigger and has less chance of reversing than you? Don't even talk to me about how you can reverse a Toad. I have seen the video with the "recommended" method of forcing the front wheels on to full lock and then scrubbing them on the road surface which can't possibly do the steering geometry any good whatsoever. Imagine doing that on a country road where the nearest opportunity to disconnect might be a mile back. I have towed both long and short trailers with either a motorbike or scooter in/on them and have never needed to un-hitch either of them to get out of a difficult situation because I can reverse them.

Reversing is one of my concerns - particularly given my navigation skills!

 

[TonyEmm]

Ian OldCodger I have on occasions thought about A frameing one of our cars but the thing that always puts me off is not being able to reverse them. The pro lobby always come up with the same answer, easy just unhook it and turn it round and then re-connect. That's fine if the road is wide enough but what if you are on a narrow country road with no chance of turning the car round let alone the motorhome? And what if you come face to face with another vehicle which is even bigger and has less chance of reversing than you? Don't even talk to me about how you can reverse a Toad. I have seen the video with the "recommended" method of forcing the front wheels on to full lock and then scrubbing them on the road surface which can't possibly do the steering geometry any good whatsoever. Imagine doing that on a country road where the nearest opportunity to disconnect might be a mile back. I have towed both long and short trailers with either a motorbike or scooter in/on them and have never needed to un-hitch either of them to get out of a difficult situation because I can reverse them.

If you’re on a particularly narrow road, the answer is still the same.. Disconnect the a-frame and reverse separately, until you can either pull in or turn around. If the road is too narrow to reverse the MoHo solo, I wouldn’t want to be on there anyway….!

 

[TonyEmm]

I suppose it is a question of priorities and resources. i do suspect a lot of the EU legislation (of which there is an abundance, even all-consuming) will be slowly detached from UK legislation given Brexit.

It would be interesting to see the view point of the A frame manufacturers who would clearly have sought counsel advice before proceeding to sell to the UK public.

It will take a LONG time before the Construction & Use regulations are disentangled from EU regulations…. There are references all over C&U regs to the EU regs.. However, if it were to happen, it would be a great opportunity for the U.K. to have meaningful rules and regs for a-frames rather than some of the totally irrelevant trailer regulations.

As far as a-frame suppliers seeking counsel is concerned, I’ve only experienced it after the event, when looking to protect their backs!

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[62272]

It will take a LONG time before the Construction & Use regulations are disentangled from EU regulations…. There are references all over C&U regs to the EU regs.. However, if it were to happen, it would be a great opportunity for the U.K. to have meaningful rules and regs for a-frames rather than some of the totally irrelevant trailer regulations.

As far as a-frame suppliers seeking counsel is concerned, I’ve only experienced it after the event, when looking to protect their backs!

I agree ref the EU unnecessary directives.

Certainly a USA supplier of a certain mode of electric pedestrian transport went to great lengths to consult with statutory stakeholders and receive counsel advice… It didn’t help them as our regs did not permit its use, didn’t stop them doing their best including lobbying MP’s for a law change.

 

[OldCodger]

If the road is too narrow to reverse the MoHo solo, I wouldn’t want to be on there anyway….!

Ah yes, but my navigation skills often help me find exactly that sort of road!!!

 

[poppycamper]

If the road is too narrow to reverse the MoHo solo, I wouldn’t want to be on there anyway….!

If road wide enough to get moho (other vehicle available) in fronty ways its equally wide enough to get it out backy ways. More practice required, maybe?

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[eddie]

Reversing is one of my concerns - particularly given my navigation skills!

Simple leave the motorhome in neutral with the handbrake off, jump in the car and tow the Motorhome backwards out of the way!

 

[OldCodger]

I found my new toad.

 

[tonyidle]

If road wide enough to get moho (other vehicle available) in fronty ways its equally wide enough to get it out backy ways. More practice required, maybe?

Not that simple with foliage covering the mirrors and impossible with a trailer under the same circumstances.

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[OldCodger]

Simple leave the motorhome in neutral with the handbrake off, jump in the car and tow the Motorhome backwards out of the way!

I’d love to see your average Aygo tow my 5.5t A Class anywhere, let only up a narrow lane in reverse

 

[eddie]

I’d love to see your average Aygo tow my 5.5t A Class anywhere, let only up a narrow lane in reverse

My little Diahatsu could pull my 11t A Class no issue! so a tiddler like yours should be easy