A frames in France ? why do they build, certificate and sell them if they are illegal ? (1 Viewer)

[OldCodger]

Haven't knocked it just fed up with A Frames moaning & trying to claim its legal when it's not.

Lenny HB - help me understand this ? What’s the basis of you saying these are not legal when clearly they are “allowed/permitted” in GB. What’s lead you to believe they are not legal in GB?


I fully accept they are illegal in France (and probably several other EU countries) but that many people take the risk and few get fined.

 

[TonyEmm]

Lenny HB - help me understand this ? What’s the basis of you saying these are not legal when clearly they are “allowed/permitted” in GB. What’s lead you to believe they are not legal in GB?


I fully accept they are illegal in France (and probably several other EU countries) but that many people take the risk and few get fined.

They are allowed/permitted/accepted in the U.K. on condition they comply with the relevant rules in the Road Vehicles (construction & use) regulations that apply to CatO2 braked trailers up to 3,500kgs.
C&U refer to UNECE regulation 13 (which outlaws inertia couplings on centre axle trailers) and inertia braked systems cannot be auto-reversed as they lack the necessary brake mechanisms.
it’s my view that electronic activated systems fall outside the C&U regs too as they don’t have an emergency braking system that locks mechanically, instead relying on stored energy in the TOAD’s battery.

The only things you’re likely to get nicked for in the U.K. though is either not using or incorrect use of a breakaway cable, not displaying retro reflective rear triangles, not complying with the lighting regulations and number plate offences. DVSA are more committed to targeting HGV’s as that’s where the majority of their funding is derived from.

 

[Lenny HB]

Lenny HB - help me understand this ? What’s the basis of you saying these are not legal when clearly they are “allowed/permitted” in GB. What’s lead you to believe they are not legal in GB?


I fully accept they are illegal in France (and probably several other EU countries) but that many people take the risk and few get fined.

They are not permitted as such just tolerated read the rest of the thread.

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[eddie]

It is not 100% legal in the uk, they are accepted (wit( conditions) by the DfT but that’s not the same thing! Until there is a test case in the courts, they have no legal standing.

Nothing is ‘legal’ many thing are ‘illegal’

The fact that the Department For Transport them blows the legal yes/no argument out of the water.

 

[OldCodger]

They are not permitted as such just tolerated read the rest of the thread.

I have been following the thread closely. The DoT webpage provides their opinion on the circumstances when they CAN be used in GB

No one has pointed to a law or regulation that says you can’t use them. And unless it is against a law or regulation you can do it!

 

[Minxy]

For goodness sake do we have to keep going round in circles?

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[poppycamper]

For goodness sake do we have to keep going round in circles?

Yep Minxy .. what the alternative?.. squares no good cause one tends to get stuck in corners!

 

[Verteuil Man]

Does anyone know a current traffic cop of a VOSA inspector that can be asked?

 

[eddie]

For goodness sake do we have to keep going round in circles?

No its way too much fun!

Actually I've sold my A Framed car and would never by another one but I wouldn't tell the Luddites that

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[TonyEmm]

Does anyone know a current traffic cop of a VOSA inspector that can be asked?

Yes I do! I know a few…. But, it was a quote from a DVSA vehicle inspector that said (with regard to CatO2 trailers)
“When on road checks we target any vehicle with obvious defects which include LGV. However; our LGV work in proportion to the HGV is bias, we have budget from the Department for Transport to inspect a proportion of each category. HGV has a much higher target, so the majority of our work focuses on these vehicles. The prohibition rate on HGV is about 17% that does not include Traffic prohibitions that are issued for driver’s hours etc. LGV prohibitions are around 66% so DVSA and DFT are aware of the issues of the small scheme. However; as an agency and (in my opinion) just don’t have the resources to effectively manage the two schemes. The agency and DFT have limited funds, these funds are mostly generated from the HGV/PSV licencing scheme and a fair level playing field must be guaranteed, therefore we must target illegal operators of HGV.”.
In other words, DVSA inspections tend to be finance driven, not necessarily safety driven.

 

[Verteuil Man]

Yes I do! I know a few…. But, it was a quote from a DVSA vehicle inspector that said (with regard to CatO2 trailers)
“When on road checks we target any vehicle with obvious defects which include LGV. However; our LGV work in proportion to the HGV is bias, we have budget from the Department for Transport to inspect a proportion of each category. HGV has a much higher target, so the majority of our work focuses on these vehicles. The prohibition rate on HGV is about 17% that does not include Traffic prohibitions that are issued for driver’s hours etc. LGV prohibitions are around 66% so DVSA and DFT are aware of the issues of the small scheme. However; as an agency and (in my opinion) just don’t have the resources to effectively manage the two schemes. The agency and DFT have limited funds, these funds are mostly generated from the HGV/PSV licencing scheme and a fair level playing field must be guaranteed, therefore we must target illegal operators of HGV.”.
In other words, DVSA inspections tend to be finance driven, not necessarily safety driven.

But. That says that they do not inspect. Does not say whether they are legal or not.

 

[62272]

Somewhere, buried in trailer C&U legislation, is the requirement that a trailer must be able to be reversed under control without the driver leaving the towing vehicle. And yes I have seen the You Tube video of a towed Smart car being reversed on full opposite lock with tyres scrubbing. The inability to reverse an A frame into a side road to turn around is what made me decide on a trailer even for UK use.

The C&U regs '86; sections 83-93 concern trailers and sidecars. Nowhere is it mentioned that a trailer must be capable of being reversed?

section 106 which is in relation to reversing is not relevant, and I cannot see anything remotely applicable under these regs, unless it is in another statutory document, or relates to the design of trailers?

The DOT A Frame guidance also does not list it as a requirement, and in my professional life I do not remember hearing of it.

I note it is quoted on here (forum threads) regularly as being a Con & Use requirement?? Not sure where it stems from as I also cannot find it in the text, annexes or definitions and even tried a key word search on the entire regulations .

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[triky]

When i enquired (used to use A frame ) the dvla/dvsa.etc said that it IS A TRAILER ,so rules/laws representative for trailers are followed

 

[Verteuil Man]

When i enquired (used to use A frame ) the dvla/dvsa.etc said that it IS A TRAILER ,so rules/laws representative for trailers are followed

So they are legal?

 

[David and Sally]

So they are legal?

In the UK

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[62272]

The bottom line is if you comply with the requirements as per the DOT A-Frames guidance note, then your car (A frame) is considered a temporary trailer and is therefore legal to tow in the UK. Outside the UK (EU generally), the definition of a trailer is specific and it is not legal under their regulations.

Not all A frames are legal, you will need to satisfy yourself with the braking system etc.. some unreputable manufacturers/fitters do not include things like breakaway cables etc…. Do your research first is my advice.

 

[Verteuil Man]

The bottom line is if you comply with the requirements as per the DOT A-Frames guidance note, then your car (A frame) is considered a temporary trailer and is therefore legal to tow in the UK. Outside the UK (EU generally), the definition of a trailer is specific and it is not legal under their regulations.

Not all A frames are legal, you will need to satisfy yourself with the braking system etc.. some unreputable manufacturers/fitters do not include things like breakaway cables etc…. Do your research first is my advice.

I have an A frame with an electronic braking system which operates a seperate servo and a breakaway cable which operates an auxiliary servo. I have also registered the "trailer" under the manufacturers name of Towmaster with DVLA and it has its own trailer registration number, the same as articulated lorry trailers. I display the trailer registration number on white plates on either side of the " trailer". All decals for the car are covered over with tape.

 

[TonyEmm]

I have an A frame with an electronic braking system which operates a seperate servo and a breakaway cable which operates an auxiliary servo. I have also registered the "trailer" under the manufacturers name of Towmaster with DVLA and it has its own trailer registration number, the same as articulated lorry trailers. I display the trailer registration number on white plates on either side of the " trailer". All decals for the car are covered over with tape.

DVLA withdrew the option to register a-frames as trailers. That was a scheme (promoted by LNB) to register your TOAD as a commercial trailer, which isn’t. The scheme was introduced to ease the transition for commercial operators during the Brexit fiasco.

see this email quote from February 2022

The DfT have issued an amendment to The Trailer Registration Regulations 2021.

(3) After regulation 4(7), insert—
“(8) In paragraph (1), “trailer” does not include a trailer that is a mechanically propelled vehicle.”.

I also received an email yesterday from the DfT confirming that the DVLA will cancel registrations of motorised vehicles registered as trailers. The applicants will lose their £26 registration fee.

I think you’ll find you are no longer registered as a “commercial trailer”!

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[TonyEmm]

So they are legal?

Read the thread, only a court of law can decide on the legality and there hasn’t yet been a test case. The DfT accept them provided they comply with all the trailer regs (which they don’t).

 

[TonyEmm]

So they are legal?

Read the thread, only a court of law can decide on the legality and there hasn’t yet been a test case. The DfT accept them provided they comply with all the trailer regs (which they don’t).

 

[Verteuil Man]

DVLA withdrew the option to register a-frames as trailers. That was a scheme (promoted by LNB) to register your TOAD as a commercial trailer, which isn’t. The scheme was introduced to ease the transition for commercial operators during the Brexit fiasco.

see this email quote from February 2022

I think you’ll find you are no longer registered as a “commercial trailer”!

That's a shame.

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[62272]

Read the thread, only a court of law can decide on the legality and there hasn’t yet been a test case. The DfT accept them provided they comply with all the trailer regs (which they don’t).

I take it Tony that your opinion is that the A-frame outfit does not comply with the mechanically operated emergency brake application? Is there anything else, regarding the trailer regs (I assume C&U)?

Out of interest.

 

[Coolcats]

For goodness sake do we have to keep going round in circles?

there are quite a few songs with reference to circles.....here are just 4 the last is the most annoying....maybe like A frames

 

[Larrynwin]

Not illegal , just disliked by a non user

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[TonyEmm]

I take it Tony that your opinion is that the A-frame outfit does not comply with the mechanically operated emergency brake application? Is there anything else, regarding the trailer regs (I assume C&U)?

Out of interest.

It depends whether you’re talking inertia braked or electronic activated. Inertia braked a-frames CANNOT be auto-reversed because they don’t have the required mechanisms at the wheels. electronic activated CAN be auto-reversed but personally, I’d never bother! The biggest issue with them, as you suggest, is emergency braking application and the fact the6vrely on battery voltage to maintain the status quo.

i’ve said many times though, I believe a-frame towed cars should have their own vehicle category and not have to conform to rules that weren’t actually written with them in mind…

 

[62272]

It depends whether you’re talking inertia braked or electronic activated. Inertia braked a-frames CANNOT be auto-reversed because they don’t have the required mechanisms at the wheels. electronic activated CAN be auto-reversed but personally, I’d never bother! The biggest issue with them, as you suggest, is emergency braking application and the fact the6vrely on battery voltage to maintain the status quo.

i’ve said many times though, I believe a-frame towed cars should have their own vehicle category and not have to conform to rules that weren’t actually written with them in mind…

Cheers Tony, very informative.

 

[OldCodger]

The DfT accept them provided they comply with all the trailer regs (which they don’t).

Ok. In what way do A Frames not comply ? The DoT website, which specifically mentioned the case of a car towed by a Motorhome, said if they meet “all these requirements” they can be used on the roads in GB (Outside GB is another matter!!)

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[OldCodger]

i’ve said many times though, I believe a-frame towed cars should have their own vehicle category and not have to conform to rules that weren’t actually written with them in mind…

While the idea is attractive, I suspect your aspirations hold less authority than even the “opinion” of the DoT.

 

[62272]

Ok. In what way do A Frames not comply ? The DoT website, which specifically mentioned the case of a car towed by a Motorhome, said if they meet “all these requirements” they can be used on the roads in GB (Outside GB is another matter!!)

It would depend on your specific unit and the type of mechanism used to do the braking. It sounds that any incompatibility to EU technical requirements (assuming that those aspects have been adopted by UK legislation) would mean they are incompatible and therefore illegal. Albeit you would have to have a public authority (e.g. Police or VOSA) supported by their prosecuting authority (CPS or VOSA prosecution decision makers) seeing that such a breach warranted a prosecution based on charging standards guidelines, and prepared to give it a run in court.

Only once a court has made such a ruling, and dependant on the wording of that ruling as to the application to the type of system/s involved would the current status change.

If you want to be bombproof and not have that concern then you would be better getting a trailer to transport your car (if that is your requirement). If you’ve weighed up the information and happy to proceed knowing all the facts and with your eyes wide open, then A framing is for you. But there is always a risk with innovation.

 

[L' Hobo]

Not forgetting, of course, if your driving licence covers the weight of the 'trailor'/Toad

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