A frames in France ? why do they build, certificate and sell them if they are illegal ? (2 Viewers)

[Ridgeway]

Just curious as i has assumed based on "forum info" that A frames were illegal in France. Bumped into a guy here in CH and he had this installed on his van:



From this company: Systeme Blue

Maybe my info is wrong or i'm missing something but it looks up to date and very much legit, they claim to be TUV certified which basically means any where in the EU is OK and trust me if they are accepted here in CH then they will have done tons of paperwork on them. Maybe they are just stupidly expensive ? prices shown are around £2.5k installed, no idea how this compares.

Thought this might be useful for those with A frame anxiety in France and Spain etc.

 

[David and Sally]

Here we go again. They are considered illegal in Europe. Especially Spain and France. Some get away with it, some pay the price. How lucky do you feel?

Only vehicles being recovered can have their wheels on the ground.

 

[Ridgeway]

Here we go again. They are considered illegal in Europe. Especially Spain and France. Some get away with it, some pay the price. How lucky do you feel?

Only vehicles being recovered can have their wheels on the ground.

are we sure ?

I can't see the TUV approving this device based on that statement.

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[David and Sally]

are we sure ?

I can't see the TUV approving this device based on that statement.

Something to do with an EU convention. It is generally considered by Funsters as a no-no in Europe. Unless you have found the loophole.

 

[pappajohn]

Probably the same reason you could openly buy and own a 27mhz AM CB radio.
What you couldn't do was legally use it.

 

[Ridgeway]

Just wondering if showing French officer plod this video may prove that there's a French version out there and they may back down ?

Having dug around on this product though it sounds like it also stretches the truth on what you eluded to above (recovery vehicles etc) but how the F they got TUV approval..... i'll try to find out from Mr Swiss i met

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[Ridgeway]

Probably the same reason you could openly buy and own a 27mhz AM CB radio.
What you couldn't do was legally use it.

could be just that, the speed trap detector thing as you say.

haven't ever see one of these until today.

 

[pappajohn]

Only vehicles being recovered can have their wheels on the ground.

A disabled vehicle being recovered must be fully off the ground.....a flatbed truck or trailer in Spain.

 

[David and Sally]

A disabled vehicle being recovered must be fully off the ground.....a flatbed truck or trailer in Spain.

I am corrected…

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[pappajohn]

I am corrected…

Possibly the reason they are illegal in Spain in particular
You couldn't forbid their use in one scenario (b/down company) and allow in another (private use)

 

[Spriddler]

Just wondering if showing French officer plod this video may prove that there's a French version out there and they may back down ?

Having dug around on this product though it sounds like it also stretches the truth on what you eluded to above (recovery vehicles etc) but how the F they got TUV approval..... i'll try to find out from Mr Swiss i met

I used to obtain TUV certification for my U.K. manufactured electronic goods (P.A. and passenger/public information equipment). The certification merely approved that it met the construction and technical regs (electrical safety, fire resistance, RF emissions etc), not where or how it was used and not whether its use was legal.
TUV approval was accepted in all European countries and wasn't specific to any one country in particular.

(The 'CE' marking on goods is also misunderstood. It's self-certification by the manufacturer and no external or independent testing is involved or required).

 

[Sheddy]

Have any Funsters been stopped or fined in France using an A frame? It would be nice to have first hand information

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[emjaiuk]

Possibly the reason they are illegal in Spain in particular
You couldn't forbid their use in one scenario (b/down company) and allow in another (private use)

We A framed a toad and RV for 20 years in Spain without a problem. Didn’t make it legal, just that plod used to turn a blind eye. Now they no longer do.
As far as I’m aware there is more than one French A frame manufacture. Perhaps we could ask yodeli if could could post a question on one of the French CAMPING-CAR forums regarding the legality of towing a car behind a motorhome When she gets time. The only reason we stopped was that we changed the RV for a European motorhome, and I stopped getting free ferry tickets

 

[LesW]

Have any Funsters been stopped or fined in France using an A frame? It would be nice to have first hand information

Not quite first hand, but some very good friends of ours bought a property in France, they decided to take there Fiat 500 down there using an A frame.

They were stopped by French plod, and told to disconnect the frame and leave the Fiat and come back for it later, luckily the wife could drive so continued on following the moho.

 

[gus-lopez]

are we sure ?

I can't see the TUV approving this device based on that statement.

I've seen them advertised on"milanuncios" in Spain. At the end of ad it states
"not legal for road use"

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[Verteuil Man]

The TUV will be to exempt the French registered vehicles. It is not legal in some EU countries to tow a vehicle if the vehicles are registered in that country. In the UK it is legal with UK registered vehicles.

Example. In France a caravan has to be registered and tested as a separate vehicle. Yet you bowl up with your UK registered motor tugging a Swift whatever, it's legal. That is due to international legislation wh8ch the attached explains.

 

[Nyvern]

Doesn't look like you're allowed to tow.
Gendarmerie nationale
MINISTÈRE DE L'INTÉRIEUR
PEUT-ON TRACTER UNE VOITURE AVEC UN CAMPING-CAR ?
La circulation d'un ensemble composé d'un véhicule à moteur (éventuellement un camping car) remorquant un autre véhicule à moteur n'est pas conforme à la réglementation routière.
Seul le cas particulier de la panne ou de l'accident peut justifier le remorquage d'un véhicule par un autre, sous réserve que cette opération s'effectue dans des conditions précises.
La seule façon licite de tracter une voiture à l'arrière d'un camping-car est d'utiliser une remorque adaptée et ayant fait l'objet d'une réception.

 

[Larrynwin]

Crossbows and dangerous knives are legally sold in the U.K. but against the law to carry.

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[LesW]

Doesn't look like you're allowed to tow.
Gendarmerie nationale
MINISTÈRE DE L'INTÉRIEUR
PEUT-ON TRACTER UNE VOITURE AVEC UN CAMPING-CAR ?
La circulation d'un ensemble composé d'un véhicule à moteur (éventuellement un camping car) remorquant un autre véhicule à moteur n'est pas conforme à la réglementation routière.
Seul le cas particulier de la panne ou de l'accident peut justifier le remorquage d'un véhicule par un autre, sous réserve que cette opération s'effectue dans des conditions précises.
La seule façon licite de tracter une voiture à l'arrière d'un camping-car est d'utiliser une remorque adaptée et ayant fait l'objet d'une réception.

A more helpful translation..
MINISTRY OF THE INTERIOR
CAN YOU TOW A CAR WITH A MOTORHOME?
The circulation of a set consisting of a motor vehicle (possibly a motorhome) towing another motor vehicle does not comply with road regulations.
Only the specific case of a breakdown or accident can justify the towing of one vehicle by another, provided that this operation is carried out under specific conditions.
The only lawful way to tow a car behind a motorhome is to use a suitable trailer that has been approved.

 

[Verteuil Man]

So to summarise. It is legal to tow a car on an A-Frame behind a motorhome?

 

[gus-lopez]

So to summarise. It is legal to tow a car on an A-Frame behind a motorhome?

Not according to the French link from Nyvern Nyv

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[Verteuil Man]

In a UK registered vehicle?

 

[Spriddler]

So to summarise. It is legal to tow a car on an A-Frame behind a motorhome?

It says 'une remorque' which is a trailer, not an A fame.

 

[Verteuil Man]

It says 'une remorque' which is a trailer, not an A fame.

But does it specifically say "not A-Frame"? And does it say a vehicle not registered in France?

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[Verteuil Man]

This combination of vehicles:-

• Are legally owned by a person normally resident in the United Kingdom;
• They are registered in the United Kingdom
• They are temporarily imported into another EU State as “vehicles in international traffic” within the meaning of the Vienna Convention on

<Broken link removed>
The UK Department For Transport recognise that when an "A" frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (e.g. motorhome) the "A" frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in legislation as a trailer.
This vehicle adapted to be a trailer, is identified as a trailer by displaying reflective triangles and the registration number of the towing vehicle with its home state on the registration plate.
The trailer system has power assisted brakes, operated by the brakes of the towing vehicle being pressed.
The lights on the trailer vehicle duplicate those of the towing vehicle.
As a consequence the car/trailer meets the UK technical requirements for trailers when used on the road. Category O2: Trailers with a maximum mass exceeding 0.75 tonnes but not exceeding 3.5 tonnes
These requirements are contained within the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 (SI 1986/1078) as amended (C&U) and the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 (SI 1989/1796) as amended (RVLR) as implemented by European Community Directive 71/320/EEC, along with its various amending Directives, and UNECE Regulation No.13. 2014

 

[DerryW]

Still no wiser

 

[Minxy]

The UK Department For Transport recognise that when an "A" frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (e.g. motorhome) the "A" frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in legislation as a trailer

Who's written that then?

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[Lenny HB]

You can't claim its legal in France because its legal in the UK as it is NOT legal in the UK it has just never been proved to be illegal as there has not been a legal test case.

Why is it A Framers always want to bend the rules to suit themselves rather than just accept its not legal.

 

[emjaiuk]

You can't claim its legal in France because its legal in the UK as it is NOT legal in the UK it has just never been proved to be illegal as there has not been a legal test case.

Why is it A Framers always want to bend the rules to suit themselves rather than just accept its not legal.

Possibly because the rules in a lot of cases do not fully take into account the way A frames can work. Spanish towing regulations for example were designed as far as I am aware to prohibit towrope use. Others concentrate on the fact that the majority of A frame systems have no way of activating stowed car’s hydraulic brake system, ignoring the fact that some do, and a cars braking system is designed for a fully laden car, which most towed cars are not.
The reality is that A frame regulations aren’t important enough for authorities to spend time, it’s easier to issue a blanket ‘no’ regardless of the question

 

[Neil S]

Have any Funsters been stopped or fined in France using an A frame? It would be nice to have first hand information

I have friends from Lincolnshire who used to tow a Citroen C1 on frame to Spain every winter on the C&CC rallies .
When I queried them about the legality of their outfit they said oh it’s perfectly legal we have the paperwork in multiple languages for proof .
Following year we bumped into each other at a different winter rally site and I casually mentioned where is your car .
Turned out they were pulled in by Traffico just south of Zaragoza on route to catch the Ferry .
Fined X amount of Euros and made to disconnect the car .
The officer concerned spoke good English but refused to acknowledge the paperwork and told my friend in no uncertain terms - your A-frame is illegal to use in Spain
Fortunately his wife had a full licence but had never driven abroad , she was forced to drive the wee car all the way to the ferry port .

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