Problem with Lithium fitters

[Ingwe]

This is not a rant, just a baffled response to the service I’ve received in trying to spend over £2k getting a lithium battery fitted.
We have only one leisure battery fitted and a 120 watt solar panel. Decided we’d take the plunge and have a lithium battery installed. We realised, from reading posts here, that we’d also need a BSB charger, a new solar controller and possibly also a new mains charger and all associated wiring upgrades and other accessories. The first supplier who quoted us gave us dates for fitting in July 2021 which suited us but then he cried off and gave a date in October 2021. This was not possible as we we’re away then.

So we tried a different supplier, who quoted a better price for different makes of ancillary equipment but again changed the date for fitting. The second fitter was also unclear whether the charger in our van would suffice but suggested it might be ok. I’m not too happy about “might” given the costs involved and possible damage to the battery if improperly charged. Anyway again, with regards to fitting, it was a question of “I’ll get back to you” which only ever happened if I chased up. Eventually, was given a date in November 2021. But the actual date depended on me emailing a date that worked for me. So I gave a suitable date in November by email to which there has been no response. So I’m in the position where I may be having the battery and other stuff fitted on the 7th November or I may not. I also don’t know whether a new charger will be required or not.

I understand that motorhome dealers are all busy. But why is it that I have had to chase up repeatedly and still find that I don’t know whether or not I’ve a definite fitting date and whether the correct gear is being fitted?

I’ll not, at this stage, name the two dealers involved but both were chosen following positive posts on the forum. Neither returned calls when promised, neither replied to emails for weeks after my messages. The net result, to me, is that I have no confidence in either supplier and may simply not bother and keep the money. It’s like they don’t really want the business. If that’s the case, I’d rather they just told me to p*ss off at the outset.

 

[Landy Andy]

I can understand your response to this.

 

[Richard n Ann]

This is not a rant, just a baffled response to the service I’ve received in trying to spend over £2k getting a lithium battery fitted.
We have only one leisure battery fitted and a 120 watt solar panel. Decided we’d take the plunge and have a lithium battery installed. We realised, from reading posts here, that we’d also need a BSB charger, a new solar controller and possibly also a new mains charger and all associated wiring upgrades and other accessories. The first supplier who quoted us gave us dates for fitting in July 2021 which suited us but then he cried off and gave a date in October 2021. This was not possible as we we’re away then.

So we tried a different supplier, who quoted a better price for different makes of ancillary equipment but again changed the date for fitting. The second fitter was also unclear whether the charger in our van would suffice but suggested it might be ok. I’m not too happy about “might” given the costs involved and possible damage to the battery if improperly charged. Anyway again, with regards to fitting, it was a question of “I’ll get back to you” which only ever happened if I chased up. Eventually, was given a date in November 2021. But the actual date depended on me emailing a date that worked for me. So I gave a suitable date in November by email to which there has been no response. So I’m in the position where I may be having the battery and other stuff fitted on the 7th November or I may not. I also don’t know whether a new charger will be required or not.

I understand that motorhome dealers are all busy. But why is it that I have had to chase up repeatedly and still find that I don’t know whether or not I’ve a definite fitting date and whether the correct gear is being fitted?

I’ll not, at this stage, name the two dealers involved but both were chosen following positive posts on the forum. Neither returned calls when promised, neither replied to emails for weeks after my messages. The net result, to me, is that I have no confidence in either supplier and may simply not bother and keep the money. It’s like they don’t really want the business. If that’s the case, I’d rather they just told me to p*ss off at the outset.

Just do it yourself. There's masses of info nowadays online, if you don't know something you can find out in seconds. Plus loads of people on here will help you

 

[Itsmcb]

What a pain in the backside! I wouldn't give either company my business on principle.

 

[Just smiffy]

Just imagine you had a problem after the install…. same Shoddy response…

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[Landy Andy]

For me lithium is in its early stages, and I’m not willing to put the time, energy, and money into it. So well done you for, at least, trying to get it done.

 

[PJGWiltshire]

Its just a minefield out there when it comes to Lithium and having them fitted.

From my research I think its the case that workshops are as much in the dark around what bits you have already fitted and what you need to upgrade I already had an inverter and 60Amp B2B. I looked to upgrade earlier this year and when the figure got past £5000 for two 110 lithiums, Victron inverter and charger. I was looking to use Van bitz and in the end we could not instal the charger unit to where the batteries were installed so it was going to require a complete relocation for the batteries and this just put the cost up through the roof. So I simply replaced the two 110 Gel batteries.
So if you are still are going to get a company to fit go to somewhere that has been highly recommended from the likes of fellow Funsters. I recall a post giving good review for Oaktree Motorhomes in Nottingham but please look that up on here as I have had no personal engagement with them.
Good luck

 

[Ingwe]

Just do it yourself. There's masses of info nowadays online, if you don't know something you can find out in seconds. Plus loads of people on here will help you

I’d be prepared to have a go myself but, SWMBO, would freak out at the thought of matters electrical being done by anyone other than a professional.

 

[Ingwe]

The two companies I approached were recommended by Funsters. I appreciate that the technology is relatively new and therefore the prices are high and the number of those ‘in the know‘ is accordingly small. But I suppose what I am really complaining about is the lack of good business acumen. If you’re uncertain as to what to fit, then delay offering your services until you’re clear what’s required. And then, like any business, realise that the customer pays the wages and they deserve good service. That involves ringing back when you say you will, replying to emails promptly or at all, giving a definite fitting date (that doesn’t involve the customer based in York travelling to East Sussex) and reassuring the customer by knowing what’s required in their van.

 

[teddybear]

It doesn't just apply to motorhome dealers, have asked 4 builders to quote to build a new garage. Only 1 bothered to call and quote,the others never came despite promising to come.I know it doesn't help you ,but does prove the poor standard that prevalent across lots of business

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[PJGWiltshire]

On the Oaktree MH point. If I recall Jim had a couple of Lithium batteries donated from a company and he offered them to us all in a free draw. The company then offered a discount code to buy direct from them for members on here. Again please search Oaktree on the forum but I think they installed one of the batteries to the winning member and a good review was given

here is the forum update

Eco Tree Lithium's installed by Oak Tree​

 

[deleted79651]

We bought our lithium battery from KS Energy at Stourport 1 month ago, after recommendation from a Funster, who had, in turn, been recommended by another Funster!

Neal, the owner of KS Energy, did the job in a low key, unhurried fashion and downloaded the app, and demonstrated its function before he let us go. Very good service, and the 120ah battery is performing superbly.

Steve

 

[royw]

Lithium. is a proven technology variants are new with additional benefits including safety, Of course its not as proven as lead or variants of. but it has far more benefits. Key thing is to understand exactly what the current lanscape is, if any is reuseable and what needs to be replaced or indeed new addition. You have to think about its location, the multiple ways of charging be it solar ( add panels change controller type, ehu, b2b, methanol or even gas. As lithium is likely to offer more you need make those considerations when charging. of once you have it what do you do with it, is it to remain 12 volt ( 24v or 48v aditional inverter options). add inverter, utilise existing or upgrade to provide more power. doing this sort of this also allows you to add some quality configuration. on fusing cable length sizes. so for an installer it is important to understand what you have currently and your requirements. i would expect someone to have a pre inspection and a good chat with you as there are simply so many options other than changing a battery type

 

[Conal]

I asked for and received a quote from RoadPro just before everything shut down for the second time. My two lead acid batteries were on the way out and I thought lithium would solve my problem of vehicle and leisure batteries going flat even with solar when left for months over winter in storage. Turns out that, according to this forum and others, there is no solution. B2B with lithium would be much better but would not be enough. A member was selling nearly new batteries so I bought those and, instead of spending north of £3,000, I will take my motorhome home every two weeks two recharge.

 

[Billy192]

Hi ,

my experience of Lithium

I have installed 2 x 325w solar and a 300AH lithium battery victron MPPT and a victron 30a charger 240 just in case i ever hook up.
no B2B as i have a concern the alternator will get to much of a thumping,
to date I have not had to charge the batt in over 12 months did all the work myself. plenty of utube vids to help. my batt is always 100% the lowest i get it to on ave is in the low 90s but the min its high sun boom.

if my cab /starter batt goes below 12.5 i have a lead i run from the lith for 1-2hrs and its back to 100%.
i have a 2000w inverter for a few things also a 12v compressor fridge on all the time lots of LED an elexa, water pump, Truma, charging 2 tablets 2 iphones daily.

the battery was £1800 but well worth it in my humble opinion. just the 90% use and weight saving made my mind up. lugging 3 heavy batts around for 50%. use is not for me, constantly checking volts.

i have a victron battery monitor shunt but rarely look as even in low sun i have more than i need.

Billy

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[eddie]

It’s dead easy, in fact I got a bloke at work to do mine

 

[SpeedyDux]

Lithium. is a proven technology variants are new with additional benefits including safety, Of course its not as proven as lead or variants of. but it has far more benefits.

Boeing had 2 serious battery fires in its 787 Dreamliner. Lithium technology is safe, up to a point, but when it goes wrong ... yes, I know lead acid batteries may cause a hydrogen build-up but avoidance of that hazard is simple low tech ventilation.

 

[Carpmart]

I’ve recently in the last month installed a pair of lithium batteries. They are 204ah each, so just over 400ah combined. They were nearly identical in size to the two 200ah Gels I had before. They are connected directly to the existing infrastructure which the Leads were.

changed the charging profile to Lead Acid on the Centaur charger, downloaded the app, and bingo, couldn’t have been much more simple. The hardest bit was shifting/lifting 200a lead batteries around

As others have said, DIY.

 

[Ingwe]

I asked for and received a quote from RoadPro just before everything shut down for the second time. My two lead acid batteries were on the way out and I thought lithium would solve my problem of vehicle and leisure batteries going flat even with solar when left for months over winter in storage. Turns out that, according to this forum and others, there is no solution. B2B with lithium would be much better but would not be enough. A member was selling nearly new batteries so I bought those and, instead of spending north of £3,000, I will take my motorhome home every two weeks two recharge.

If you’ve got solar (even in a UK winter) wouldn’t a Battery Master ensure that your cab battery remained charged?

 

[royw]

Boeing had 2 serious battery fires in its 787 Dreamliner. Lithium technology is safe, up to a point, but when it goes wrong ... yes, I know lead acid batteries may cause a hydrogen build-up but avoidance of that hazard is simple low tech ventilation.

A frying pan is dagerous in the wrong hands, but to date no injuries caused by mine...

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[Ingwe]

I checked the filed accounts of one of them and it was balance sheet insolvent. Doesn’t auger well for any post-sale guarantee or warranty service.

Just imagine you had a problem after the install…. same Shoddy response…

 

[autorouter]

Boeing had 2 serious battery fires in its 787 Dreamliner. Lithium technology is safe, up to a point, but when it goes wrong

There are several variants of lithium-ion battery. Boeing use the ones with the highest energy-to-weight ratio, and they catch fire and burn if damaged. Motorhomes use a variant called Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) which does not catch fire if damaged. It is a bit heavier than the other variants, but a lot safer.

 

[Pausim]

Boeing had 2 serious battery fires in its 787 Dreamliner. Lithium technology is safe, up to a point, but when it goes wrong ... yes, I know lead acid batteries may cause a hydrogen build-up but avoidance of that hazard is simple low tech ventilation.

I agree with autorouter you can not compare a motorhome Li battery with a Boeing one. Totally different chemistry and it is the other ingredients that make some types less safe, not the lithium. Here is a table comparing the characteristics of 6 types of Li-ion batteries. The important column is the SF safety one, the ones with Cobalt in score low on safety the Iron Phosphate used in leisure batteries scores high. I dread to think where Sulphuric Acid and Hydrogen Sulphide gas would score on a safety rating.

 

[Conal]

Ingwe I honestly don’t know. I will have to check (on this forum).

 

[SpeedyDux]

I agree with autorouter you can not compare a motorhome Li battery with a Boeing one. Totally different chemistry and it is the other ingredients that make some types less safe, not the lithium. Here is a table comparing the characteristics of 6 types of Li-ion batteries. The important column is the SF safety one, the ones with Cobalt in score low on safety the Iron Phosphate used in leisure batteries scores high. I dread to think where Sulphuric Acid and Hydrogen Sulphide gas would score on a safety rating.
View attachment 525173

Even so:

Tesla Megapack fire highlights issues to be solved for utility 'big batteries'

While the Victorian Big Battery is not the first system of its kind, it is one of the world's largest battery energy storage systems.

www.cnbc.com

"There have been around 40 known fires that have occurred within large-scale, lithium ion battery energy storage systems, according to Christensen’s research. Those incidents, most of which occurred in the past three years, date back to 2012, and include four fires at three facilities in the U.S. in Arizona, Wisconsin and Illinois.

A 2019 disaster at the McMicken battery plant in Surprise, Arizona, seriously injured four emergency responders and is the most profound incident at a big battery in the U.S. to-date. Utility Arizona Public Service owns the site, and Fluence had provided that battery system.

In Beijing, two firefighters died, one more was injured and another first responder was missing after responding to a fire in a lithium-iron phosphate battery, which was connected to a rooftop solar installation at a shopping mall.

Lithium-iron phosphate batteries are currently considered to be the safest form of lithium ion battery, because the structure of the material in its cathode doesn’t break down until higher temperatures compared to other types of batteries, for example, that contain nickel manganese cobalt.

The safety of large energy systems employing LFP batteries is currently being reviewed in light of recent developments."

The most recent one being the Tesla Megapack fire during testing in Victoria, AUS which was hardly reported if at all by the UK media. It took 3 days to burn itself out.

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[Lenny HB]

Ingwe I noticed that in your OP no mention of increasing your solar, IMO a bit of a waste of time fitting Lithium without at least 300-400 watts of solar as you would miss out on one of their best features, being able to recharge quickly.

With only one battery and 120 Watts of solar you look like a low power user.
To give you more flexibility off grid you could add one or two more batteries and a couple more solar panels for a fraction of the cost.

 

[Pausim]

Even so:

Tesla Megapack fire highlights issues to be solved for utility 'big batteries'

While the Victorian Big Battery is not the first system of its kind, it is one of the world's largest battery energy storage systems.

www.cnbc.com

"There have been around 40 known fires that have occurred within large-scale, lithium ion battery energy storage systems, according to Christensen’s research. Those incidents, most of which occurred in the past three years, date back to 2012, and include four fires at three facilities in the U.S. in Arizona, Wisconsin and Illinois.

A 2019 disaster at the McMicken battery plant in Surprise, Arizona, seriously injured four emergency responders and is the most profound incident at a big battery in the U.S. to-date. Utility Arizona Public Service owns the site, and Fluence had provided that battery system.

In Beijing, two firefighters died, one more was injured and another first responder was missing after responding to a fire in a lithium-iron phosphate battery, which was connected to a rooftop solar installation at a shopping mall.

Lithium-iron phosphate batteries are currently considered to be the safest form of lithium ion battery, because the structure of the material in its cathode doesn’t break down until higher temperatures compared to other types of batteries, for example, that contain nickel manganese cobalt.

The safety of large energy systems employing LFP batteries is currently being reviewed in light of recent developments."

The most recent one being the Tesla Megapack fire during testing in Victoria, AUS which was hardly reported if at all by the UK media. It took 3 days to burn itself out.

What has the safety of vast energy systems got to do with using an entirely different type of battery in a motorhome. That is like comparing the dangers of a power station with the dynamo on a bicycle. Even an AA alkaline battery can overheat dangerously if shorted out or damaged.

 

[Ingwe]

Ingwe I noticed that in your OP no mention of increasing your solar, IMO a bit of a waste of time fitting Lithium without at least 300-400 watts of solar as you would miss out on one of their best features, being able to recharge quickly.

With only one battery and 120 Watts of solar you look like a low power user.
To give you more flexibility off grid you could add one or two more batteries and a couple more solar panels for a fraction of the cost.

We have enquired about fitting a second leisure battery and it seems too problematical. We have little exterior storage apart from the gas locker and we would lose interior space if a battery was fitted under either of the beds/seats.

We could fit another solar panel on the roof but it‘s the lack of space for the second battery that’s the problem. Hence we’ve considered the lithium battery for the extra capacity with the same space requirement. The swifter recharging of the lithium battery, we understand, would be achieved with the existing solar panel, an improved solar controller and a BSB charger.

 

[cyberyacht]

Perhaps you can build a box let into the floor to accommodate a second battery.

 

[Manic]

We were on a campsite and an Autotrail arrived that had just had lithium fitted by Roadpro and they had a smell of burning plastic, so they rang Roadpro and told to bring in back first thing Monday morning, they had it fixed and returned to campsite but the next day they had to go back to Roadpro again , same burning smell

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