Please, please help!

[Dennis]

A Frame

Just sold trailer and investing in a A frame from smart tow who inform me that there a frames meet all laws whilst abroad so lets hope there are correct

 

[Dennis]

I tow a Kia Picanto on an A frame from Armitage Trailers. A heavy kit but chose it because it automatically has a jockey wheel which, along with a reversing camera allows me to hitch up on my own. Only tour in the Uk so no problem so far re 'grey' area of legality!!

I do however have a question which I hope a Funsters can help me with:
Can I use my second set of keys to lock my car when the 1st set are in the ignition to disengage the steering lock? My dealer thinks it will be ok but can't guarantee!

invest in new key which will unlock steering but no chip so car cant start so u can be assured that the car cant be stolen so insurance cant say u left keys in car

 

[hilldweller]

Just sold trailer and investing in a A frame from smart tow who inform me that there a frames meet all laws whilst abroad so lets hope there are correct

So they will pay your fines and transport the car when you get done on Spain will they.

If they are so sure get them to put this in writing.

 

[Hillbum]

Maybe a bit late to respond to original Nov post but so what!

Following a sometime fraught tour of the Highlands last year, with shopping & sightseeing plus not being able to visit a distillery (no parking for MH) we changed the bosses car to a Toyota Aygo and had an electronic braked A Frame fitted by LNB Towbars, Bristol.

Great bit of kit, not used much this year yet, but hope to get away this week. Even used it on the back of my 4x4 when it was going in for service.

Planning a France trip later in year, not sure if we will risk Spain yet, the Boss won't drive on the wrong side if pulled up and told to decouple.

I saw a piece somewhere last year when some Portuguese authority complained to Spain about restricting visitors to them because of the concerns over A Frames travelling though Spain.

 

[PaulyP]

Hi,
just a quick question before I leap in and start TOADING! - how do you reverse when I am directed up the wrong street etc??

You will not reverse with an A frame on, as explained to me that with the car having 4 wheels it does not work as a normal trailer would when reversing.
It takes 2 mins to disconnect and with the jockey wheel down i can move the car and the the MH and reconnect.

As for the question regarding the keys, i use my spare in the ignition and lock the car with the other, if i was to stop off somewhere i would remove the key from the ignition, just remember to put it back in to take off the steering lock.

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[Mi58ck]

We tow a peugot 206cc with a caratow no problems so far,uk only

 

[meexi]

We have a 1972 Citroen Dyane on a Car a Tow cable braked A Frame only problems i have is reversing it

 

[Destination Unknown]

We tow a Aygo with a Towbars2Towcars A frame and have just come back from France, Spain, Portugal end of May. Plenty of police in spain saw us but did not bother us

 

[Aikidomo]

Picanto 2010 on a Cris Cox A frame overun braked . Runs like a dream had it three years, before that Matiz.

 

[Reallyretired]

Just to update mine. We have p'exed the Matiz as it has had yet another brake recall. We now have a Suzuki Alto which will be refitted with the Caratow A frame at the end of the month. We will take it to the continent when we next go mid August to see how useful we find it there, because up to now we've only used a toad in the UK. Loads of Caratow frames used in France where they have several fitting agents. The only drawback to Caratow is that the hitch is very heavy, somewhat over-engineered I think.

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[Fireman Sam]

Despite all the great info and advice on the Herpetology thread I am still undecided and will probably postpone a decision until the end of the season. But the idea still appeals tremendously. Mrs Fireman Sam is somewhat disabled and we can only go to the pub/restaurant with her wheelchair. This is OK when one of our kids comes along on our trips and brings their car, but trips are very restricted with only the two of us.

Question...We always have to pay extra on sites for a car; is that the case everywhere with a Toad?

 

[Happy Phantom]

We have only been charged once (in France) for a car, you still only have two vehicles, same as a caravan and car.
We tow a smart and can fit Pete's wheelchair with detachable wheels in the back.

 

[Lms]

We tow a panda on a braked A frame wouldn't be with out it in the UK but not taking to France as we'll use the folding bikes

 

[Chris69]

Toyota Aygo - Smart Tow-UK only

 

[silvergnomad]

We use a caratow a frame with our Clio behind our bessacar. Had no trouble in France last year, but a bit uneasy over new regs hype. Been putting a damper on travels this year. No point in travelling miles to a beautiful area to be confined to a field. Mobility problems and a small dog make our car a must.

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[Touringtheworldslowly]

A Frame

Towtal A Frame on Aygo Automatic with overrun brakes since 2007.

Have toad as far as Spain in past but not since 2010. Excellent way to take car with you and be able to get to places that would be difficult with a Van. Also has the benefit of not needing to find somewhere to park a trailer. We are however considering a trailer for Spain etc.

Towing an Automatic - any damage yet?

 

[sean n maggie]

smart car on Armitages A frame UK only up to now....

 

[DJA]

Hi Touringtheworldslowly

No damage at all.

I assume you are referring to the auto gear box. Well the auto gearbox is really an automatic clutch working a normal gearbox. People have tried to worry people in the past by saying that on a hill the car will run back when you take the brakes off. Well this is exactly what a normal gearbox will do. As soon as you apply acceleration the car moves forward.

It should be noted that the Toyota IQ auto is different and is not suitable for A framing.

Just to confirm we have had the car since 2008 and have towed it for a few thousand miles and had no problems at all except we flattened the car battery once but that was our fault. It tows very well.

One thing we did was get an extra key which we asked not to be coded. We put it in and turn it one click which releases the steering lock. If you actually turn the key fully the engine will turn over but the fact the key is not coded means the car will not start.

Hope that has answered your question.

 

[Cal54]

Have an Armitage A frame with Kia Picanto as my toad. Use in Uk only.

 

[scotjimland]

No point in travelling miles to a beautiful area to be confined to a field. Mobility problems and a small dog make our car a must.

would a caravan not be more practical ?

With the exception of aires you can visit exactly the same places with a caravan..Modern ones are just as well appointed as motor caravans, and and many if not most can be pulled with an average size car.. or even smaller.. you certainly don't need a gas guzzling 4x4.. My dad had a Eriba Puck that he pulled with very small car.. went everywhere and used it well into his 80s.. I also used it and you wouldn't know it was behind you..

it was just a thought..

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[buttons]

Bit puzzled.......users say they are safe. Authorities in a growing number of countries say they are not, so they have banned there use. Who is right and why? Countries must have evidence before introducing a total ban. What is it?

 

[mariner]

would a caravan not be more practical ?

With the exception of aires you can visit exactly the same places with a caravan..Modern ones are just as well appointed as motor caravans, and and many if not most can be pulled with an average size car.. or even smaller.. you certainly don't need a gas guzzling 4x4.. My dad had a Eriba Puck that he pulled with very small car.. went everywhere and used it well into his 80s.. I also used it and you wouldn't know it was behind you..

it was just a thought..

I know I've said this before, but, I have switched from MH to Car and Van with no regrets at all.

Sterckerman lightweight van and a fantastic MB C200 estate Diesel Auto.

The car pulls the van as if it wasn't there.

The van has full size fixed bed, on board water, and all the other facilities my Autocruise had.

All for a lot less money and Road Fund of £130 pa.

Do I miss Aires and Stellplatz ? Not at all, as many are now starting to charge, so ACSI in hand I get cheap camping and all the facilities I want.
In the UK it's CS's and CL's all for around a tenner.

 

[Skydog1]

Hi All we tow a smart on a Aframe with cable braking not sure who's make it is ,but have had no problems .

 

[joncris]

Have a braked A frame for towing our 2002 Fiat Punto Frame was bought & fitted by firm in Derbyshire (who's name escapes me)

 

[joncris]

Bit puzzled.......users say they are safe. Authorities in a growing number of countries say they are not, so they have banned there use. Who is right and why? Countries must have evidence before introducing a total ban. What is it?

They don't need real evidence as their reasons are probably based on anecdotal evidence. He said, She said, My mate knows someone who knows someone etc etc

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[scotjimland]

Who is right and why?

Countries who have banned them ie Germany and Spain, don't need to give a reason.. they are correct if they say so.. it doesn't matter what we think or say.. there are several members who have already been fined and made to unhitch in both countries. ..

The UK Government sits on the fence, this is copied from the Dept of Transport information fact sheet .. can be downloaded here: Until or unless someone is taken to court for using one, we will not have a definitive ruling.. as per the last paragraph of the fact sheet..
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vehicle-safety-standards-information-sheets

useful link https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/towing-equipment

“A”- Frames
When an "A" frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (e.g. motorhome) we believe the "A" frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in legislation as a trailer. As a consequence the car and “A”-frame are required to meet the technical requirements for trailers when used on the road in Great Britain. These requirements are contained within the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 (SI 1986/1078) as amended (C&U) and the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 (SI 1989/1796) as amended (RVLR).
Trailers having a combined axle mass not exceeding 750kg are not required to have brakes fitted. However, if the trailer (regardless of mass) is fitted with a braking system, then all brakes in that system must operate correctly. The regulations do not include design constraints on how this should be achieved but, for example, it could be met by direct linking of the trailer brakes to the brake system of the towing vehicle or by automatic inertia (overrun) operation via the towing hitch. Inertia systems can only be used for trailers with a maximum combined axle mass of 3500kg.
Regulations 15 and 16 of C&U set out the braking requirements - including minimum braking efficiencies for trailer brakes. Subject to certain age exemptions, the regulation requires the braking system to comply with the construction, fitting and performance requirements of European Community Directive 71/320/EEC along with its various amending Directives. Alternatively the braking system can comply with the corresponding UNECE Regulation No.13.09.
In addition, C&U Regulation 18 requires the braking system to be maintained in good and efficient working order. If the brakes of the towing vehicle do not directly operate the trailer brakes the use of an inertia (overrun) system is acceptable. If the trailer braking system has power assistance (i.e. servo or full power) it is likely that this assistance will be required while in motion to meet the required braking efficiencies. This is because once the vacuum reservoir is depleted it is possible that the brakes will not meet the braking efficiency. To prevent the trailer being used illegally a remote vacuum pump, powered from the tow vehicle, could be installed to recharge the reservoir, alternatively a source could be made available from the tow vehicle. From 1 October 1988 the inertia braking system was required to allow the trailer to be reversed by the towing vehicle without imposing a sustained drag and such devices used for this purpose must engage and disengage automatically. This will be very difficult to achieve on an “A” frame using an inertia (overrun) device.
Other provisions from Regulation 15 and Regulation 86A of C&U require the fitting and use of a secondary coupling system in which the trailer is stopped automatically if the main coupling separates whilst the combination is in motion. Alternatively, in the case of trailers up to a maximum mass of 1500kg, the drawbar must be prevented from touching the ground and the trailer able to retain some residual steering.
Whilst being towed, trailers are subject to the relevant requirements given in RVLR, including the use of triangular red reflectors. There would be further requirements for the display of the appropriate number plate, etc.
From the above I hope it is clear that we believe the use of "A" frames to tow cars behind other vehicles is legal provided the braking and lighting requirements are met. However, while this is our understanding of the Regulations, it is only the Courts which can reach a definitive interpretation of the law.

 

[tonyidle]

You will not reverse with an A frame on, as explained to me that with the car having 4 wheels it does not work as a normal trailer would when reversing.
It takes 2 mins to disconnect and with the jockey wheel down i can move the car and the the MH and reconnect.

As for the question regarding the keys, i use my spare in the ignition and lock the car with the other, if i was to stop off somewhere i would remove the key from the ignition, just remember to put it back in to take off the steering lock.

Interesting. One thing the law is very clear about is that you must be able to reverse any trailer without leaving the drivers seat.

 

[Inthezone]

When you say reverse is there a defined distance to reverse ?, I can reverse mine if i wanted to but choose not to but if I was to try say 20 times the distance would vary quite considerably

 

[DJA]

Hi

I am not convinced that countries are banning A frames based on evidence be it factual or anecdotal. I am not convinced there has been many instances where A frames have been the cause of accidents as I am sure we would have heard of some of these instances. Todate the only one I recall was a recent event near Abbeville where an A frame was thought to have parted from the van. They don't ban Caravans or trailers and how many accidents have we heard about involving them albeit the driver usually started it. Don't say there are more of them because if that is the case there are more possibilites for accidents. We have all seen them weaving about, it happened to me at 50 on the M6. I have never felt the A frame was going to take over the motorhome.

I have towed caravans ,trailers and an A frame and the latter has felt safer to me.

Generally I suspect the reason they are being banned is concern about the modification to the car not meeting standards they and the motor manufacturer have or can approve. Caravans and trailers have type approval but I suspect they have more accidents per 1000 units than A frames do. Also as has been said it is difficult to impossible to reverse an A frame. I would say however that if you got really stuck with a caravan ad needed to reverse it any distance you could be quicker uncoupling the A frame and driving both units out of the way.

Head down waiting the flack.

 

[g8ysn]

Have an Armitage A frame with Kia Picanto as my toad. Use in Uk only.

same here

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