Off grid power solutions

[CPhoenix]

Sorry if this topic has been done to death, however I would like opinions (even if this is like bobbing for apples in a piranha tank when it comes to suggestions like generators ).

The wife and I are looking at spending the next half a year in the motorhome and seldom using EHU (attempting at least a week or longer without).
Whilst I can get away without using any equipment that would need an inverter, she plans on bringing a hair dryer, straighteners, a beast of a laptop (230w which will need regular charging) and maybe a few other bits. Add on to that use of normal motorhome utilities; tv, lighting, etc, the last thing I want to do us deplete my leisure batteries (and completely fubar them).
Currently the motorhome power set up is 2x 90amh batteries and a 100w solar (which will become less usable as winter approaches).

The options I see in front of me are;

Portable power station (I.e. Goal Zero Yeti 1000).
£1300, 1045wh (about 90ah) comes with a 1500w 220v inverter, can connect to leisure batteries in a pinch. Problem could be getting it fully charged again (when nearly empty) but at least it keeps the leisure batteries separate.


More batteries, more solar, and my own inverter.
The extra solar would be a big benefit, keeping batteries topped up.
Not sure of price but this could be a headache as the Sargent unit only supports 2x batteries and up to 200w of solar. So this would have to be by-passed, replaced or supplemented.


Lithium batteries, more solar and inverter
Lighter, more usable capacity and quicker recharge times.
Same problems as above and more expensive but if I'm throwing money at this, do it right huh?


Small petrol generator (Honda EU22i)
£1100
Relatively cheap (compared to other options) and easy to set up and use.
This is pretty much a none starter as even though it's the quietest generator, I couldn't subject other motorhomers to it.


Fuel Cell Generator (Efoy Comfort 140 /210)
£4k+
Quiet and automatic (no set up just to use it)
Expensive, needs methanol and still need an inverter.


Leave the equipment at home
£0
Easiest and cheapest solution
However I would still like to be married by the time we get back.


I appreciate any thoughts you have on these and please point out any other options I'm not aware of.

Thanks for your help!

 

[steve 6644]

Buy the wife a large beard trimmer and a wig.

 

[pappajohn]

Laptop can be charged from 12v with a suitable charge adaptor.
2 x 90ah batteries may suffice but not with a 100watt panel.
You could go MUCH bigger.... 300watts maybe.... And connect through their own controller direct to the batteries bypassing the Sargent unit.

 

[CPhoenix]

Laptop can be charged from 12v with a suitable charge adaptor.
2 x 90ah batteries may suffice but not with a 100watt panel.
You could go MUCH bigger.... 300watts maybe.... And connect through their own controller direct to the batteries bypassing the Sargent unit.

I need to do some testing with the laptop but it needs 19.5v and at least 120w (it will pull 230w if it can). So I'm not sure I can get a 12v adapter that will do allow such draw through it.

I would like +300w solar but didnt know if bypassing the sargent unit would cause problems... sounds like it wouldn't?

 

[Sucoz]

I brought a hairdryer and straightners with me but have never used them ( This is not a recommendation!!!)
Although plenty of aires have electricity for a couple of euros and sometimes free, which you would only need once or twice a week

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[pappajohn]

it needs 19.5v and at least 120w (it will pull 230w if it can).

If it only has 120watts that's what it will pull.
120watt at 19.5v is only around 6amps.
A 12v charger dedicated to that make laptop will cope.
A 6amp bench charger will charge a 100ah battery but the battery will easily take 50amps if is there to take.
I can't see feeding the batteries direct having any effect on the Sargent unit.
Others may know better.

 

[John Russell]

You need to add up your power consumption, and compare it to your generation.

That laptop is taking almost 20A at 12V - 90Ah gone in 4 1/2 hours. A Macbook Pro is quoted at around 10-15W power consumption, only 1/20th, so if the laptop's getting much use then change it for a more efficient model.

You'll need more generation, so more solar's essential.

Once your solar's able to meet your needs, you need enough battery capacity to hold the solar charge and cover periods when it isn't working.

The eFoy 140 delivers around 70W (140Ah per day) and the 210 delivers 105W (210Ah per day) so those could plug the gaps.

 

[HandyAndy]

Forget trying to wire things through the sargent. You want a victron charge controller direct to hab battery bank, preferably lithium and a victron 712 display panel to check the running of things
Then get as many "suitcase" type fold out solar panels as you can afford and "quick connect" (XT60) them back to the victron charge controller to deal with once you are on site.
Don't cheap out on an inverter, not only do the cheap ones not produce the full amount they say they will but the standyby current (quiescent current / what it uses just doing nothing) can be quite terrible and on top of that they waste a lot of battery power in heat due to their inefficiency.
Again, stick with a good make like victron and you will be as happy as a pig in sh........ ?
If you plan it well, you could get the inverter and charge controller as one device to save a bit of room. Not only can some of these act as inverter and charge controller in one but can also work as mains charger when on ehu, so you can basically put the the sargent box where it belongs... in the wheely bin. They can aslo act as an "assist" device where if you have a large on board load that trips the EHU, then you can tell it the capacity of the EHU and it will limit the amp draw from there and instead supply the required extra amps from your battery bank.
Victron again of course. ? i think that one is called the Multiplus.

 

[PeteH]

There is, as always, a cost for everything. With Power, it Is:- Power Out (consumption)= Power in (minus) losses. Losses are usually felt as heat. Then there is the Weight / Storage factor to consider? Do you have space for extra batteries?, will fitting (them) take you over your payload/axle load? Ditto, Solar panels. One of the great difficulties of being totally "off grid" IS the fact that power requirements of Modern living add up to a substantial penalty.

I can`t advise on what to use/purchase. I can only suggest that having calculated your power requirements, add %age for losses (10%?) then do the maths. Read the tech spec`s for any equipment you consider buying with special emphasis on potential "power loss". The better stuff, as always, will be more expensive, having it professionally fitted will engender a cost too?. GOOD, rarely come cheap, and can also be over inflated.

Your Avtar details say Waiting, so I assume you are a bit of a "newbie". There is a lot of good advice around here from people with experience. Don`t be afraid to ask.

 

[HandyAndy]

GOOD, rarely come cheap, and can also be over inflated.

As we say in my trade. GOOD, FAST, CHEAP... pick two. ???

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Jaws]

I need to do some testing with the laptop but it needs 19.5v and at least 120w (it will pull 230w if it can). So I'm not sure I can get a 12v adapter that will do allow such draw through it.

I would like +300w solar but didnt know if bypassing the Sargeant unit would cause problems... sounds like it wouldn't?

We have 360 w of solar panels and use a fairly high quality regulator completely separate from the Sargeant unit Regulator was over £200 but no point in lobbing out for panels and using a cheap controller )

 

[jockaneezer]

What about one of those B2B charging jobbies that fools your alternator into putting more juice into your batteries when the van's engine is running ?

 

[Pausim]

I have had an Efoy 140 fitted to my new motorhome and I am most impressed.Yes it was expensive and unlike solar the fuel has a cost. On the other hand it can reliably produce 140Ah every day, whatever the weather and wherever you are parked. It doesn’t matter if you are in the N of Scotland in midwinter or shaded by trees in a hot summer, it just quietly turns itself on when it is needed and off again when the battery is full.

Currently we are in the SW of England and there hasn’t been much sun for the last few days but being off grid just isn’t an issue. Each 10 litre container of fuel produces 920Ah of power and only weighs 8.4kg. The Efoy weighs under 8kg. No need for an enormous bank of batteries or vast solar array.

In the circumstances you describe I think a modest solar set up with a modest bank of batteries backed up by an Efoy would work very well and Cover all eventualities, without upsetting anyone.

 

[funflair]

We have much the same as suggested above, 320ah Gel batteries, 320watts of solar and MPPT regulator, and the the EFOY for emergencies, we can go for months with just the solar and that is using the inverter for coffee machine and microwave as well, OK you have to be sensible and if it looks like a very poor solar day I moderate the draw from the battery bank.

Martin

 

[TheBig1]

What about one of those B2B charging jobbies that fools your alternator into putting more juice into your batteries when the van's engine is running ?

as above, a battery to battery b2b charger is in my opinion an essential in your suggested use. it will recharge the leisure batteries fastest with the engine running of course at 50 or 60amp hours

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Rapido925M]

I'm often envious of folk with unlimited payload and unlimited purses (or so it seems ).

We manage a couple of weeks without EHU at a time with ONE 100Ah battery and no solar .

However, we move on every day or so, often covering 100 miles or more.

It depends on how you intend using your van and your time.

Gordon

 

[HandyAndy]

Ha, looked what popped up in my email this morning.

How a Battery Monitor changed my (RV electrical) life - Victron Energy

Battery monitors, on the face of it, are a simple yet essential piece of kit for many. No more so than for Kelly Beasley and Marshall Wendler of CampAddict. Kelly recently got in touch with me about their insightful experience with a BMV (Battery Monitor Victron) – a BMV-700 in this instance...

www.victronenergy.com

 

[Bart]

More batteries, more solar, and my own inverter.
The extra solar would be a big benefit, keeping batteries topped up.
Not sure of price but this could be a headache as the Sargent unit only supports 2x batteries and up to 200w of solar. So this would have to be by-passed, replaced or supplemented.

What is an EHU?? The only time we ever use one of the is at home before we set off. We have a Sargent control panel built into our van, but we bypass it with our 350w of solar being fed into our 3 x Varta LFD 90's via 30amp ( I think) Victron solar charger
Also in the set up is a 1500w pure sine inverter and a 60amp B2b charger.
With this set up we have never needed to use an EHU whist away and we use the microwave daily for around 6mins.
The key is to make sure all your lights are LED's and make sure as much if not all you stuff is charged by or runs on 12v. As apposed to say using as inverter to run a TV, instead get a 12v TV.
PS we are hardly ever in sunny Europe, instead usually Ireland or as we are now in Scotland.

 

[Richard n Ann]

If you make your solar panels tiltable the output goes up to almost full power in winter. I put hinges on one side of ours.

 

[DBK]

I have had an Efoy 140 fitted to my new motorhome and I am most impressed.Yes it was expensive and unlike solar the fuel has a cost. On the other hand it can reliably produce 140Ah every day, whatever the weather and wherever you are parked. It doesn’t matter if you are in the N of Scotland in midwinter or shaded by trees in a hot summer, it just quietly turns itself on when it is needed and off again when the battery is full.

Currently we are in the SW of England and there hasn’t been much sun for the last few days but being off grid just isn’t an issue. Each 10 litre container of fuel produces 920Ah of power and only weighs 8.4kg. The Efoy weighs under 8kg. No need for an enormous bank of batteries or vast solar array.

In the circumstances you describe I think a modest solar set up with a modest bank of batteries backed up by an Efoy would work very well and Cover all eventualities, without upsetting anyone.

How easy is it to get the fuel for the Efoy, especially outside the UK? It's meths I think but probably wrong as usual.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[tonyidle]

You cannot have too much solar. 250W panels are cheapest by far (less than £120). Do not buy solar as a kit - it is much more expensive. Choose your own panels, mount them using aluminium angle, and choose your own controller. Tilting them as suggested improves output by 40% but does involve pitching the van correctly. Investigate gas cartridge hair straighteners and unless your wife has a specific need for her over-powered laptop offer her a new more efficient model or consider a high-end tablet.

 

[Richard n Ann]

I think that lap top must have valves in it ?

 

[funflair]

How easy is it to get the fuel for the Efoy, especially outside the UK? It's meths I think but probably wrong as usual.

Methanol, and never tried buying it abroad, it is classed as a hazardous delivery so quite expensive so it’s best to get up to the maximum number for one delivery to make it more economical.

For me that is at least 3 years worth so no need to buy abroad.

Martin

 

[Pausim]

How easy is it to get the fuel for the Efoy, especially outside the UK? It's meths I think but probably wrong as usual.

I am still on my first 20 litre pack but will probably pick it up from Newbury to save the delivery cost. For me it is near enough to the M4/A34 to not involve too much of a diversion. I am sure it must be available in Europe but will probably carry what I need.

 

[DBK]

Methanol, and never tried buying it abroad, it is classed as a hazardous delivery so quite expensive so it’s best to get up to the maximum number for one delivery to make it more economical.

For me that is at least 3 years worth so no need to buy abroad.

Martin

I've seen a few garages in France on this trip selling E85, which I understand is 100% bio-ethanol. If something like the Efoy could run on that it would be potentially attractive - but it would need a small fixed tank added I think. Ethanol fuel cells can work but I'm not sure they are commercially available yet. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct-ethanol_fuel_cell
Of course the E85 fuel may have additives (if only to stop folk drinking it ) which could be a problem.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Camping Gaza]

I get death threats when mentioning generators mainly from people who spend their holidays crammed in on aires or campsites for two weeks a year.

Just ignore it, especially one Scottish member who wanted to insert my generator in one particular aperture, because like me you would use your equipment sensibly and only when isolated. (actually I do not even own a generator!)

Despite all the calculations, angles of attack, what they claim to deliver, the practicalities of solar in winter is virtually useless unless you have a very large array tracking the sun and are in southern Spain or Morocco. You need other sources.

Install more batteries and more solar. even consider portable folding solar panels so you can deploy when parked, Get a large B2B if you are moving around. If not, and you stay away from people, a generator in winter as a back up (efoy or Honda) is something you will need as this is the time you use the most power and there is minimal sun.

Efoy downside: Expense and getting fuel. you already know the upsides. but is 4 grand worth it for six months?

Honda: downside: Carrying petrol, (you can get gas conversions or dual fuel) noise pollution. takes ages (almost to the point of useless) to charge a depleted battery bank. Upside is instant power to run high power appliances (heating, cooking if no gas etc)

 

[CPhoenix]

If it only has 120watts that's what it will pull.
120watt at 19.5v is only around 6amps.
A 12v charger dedicated to that make laptop will cope.
A 6amp bench charger will charge a 100ah battery but the battery will easily take 50amps if is there to take.
I can't see feeding the batteries direct having any effect on the Sargent unit.
Others may know better.

As soon as I'm able to get the laptop out of the wife's hands and find my kill-a-watt, I'll get some figures on what its drawing.

Forget trying to wire things through the sargent. You want a victron charge controller direct to hab battery bank, preferably lithium and a victron 712 display panel to check the running of things
Then get as many "suitcase" type fold out solar panels as you can afford and "quick connect" (XT60) them back to the victron charge controller to deal with once you are on site.
Don't cheap out on an inverter, not only do the cheap ones not produce the full amount they say they will but the standyby current (quiescent current / what it uses just doing nothing) can be quite terrible and on top of that they waste a lot of battery power in heat due to their inefficiency.
Again, stick with a good make like victron and you will be as happy as a pig in sh........ ?
If you plan it well, you could get the inverter and charge controller as one device to save a bit of room. Not only can some of these act as inverter and charge controller in one but can also work as mains charger when on ehu, so you can basically put the the sargent box where it belongs... in the wheely bin. They can aslo act as an "assist" device where if you have a large on board load that trips the EHU, then you can tell it the capacity of the EHU and it will limit the amp draw from there and instead supply the required extra amps from your battery bank.
Victron again of course. ? i think that one is called the Multiplus.

Lithium does seem to be way to go, especially if the £500 per 100ah battery offer is still on (out-of-stock atm ) but this could be a significant undertaking if I want to keep the part of the Sargent unit for its touch control screen.

I wasn't aware that Victron do a battery controller & inverter... will have to check if that covers the necessary control for lithium. One other concern that I do have is that the batteries are housed in an outside locker and from what I remember you can hose lithium batteries if you try and charge them in -0'c temperatures.

There is, as always, a cost for everything. With Power, it Is:- Power Out (consumption)= Power in (minus) losses. Losses are usually felt as heat. Then there is the Weight / Storage factor to consider? Do you have space for extra batteries?, will fitting (them) take you over your payload/axle load? Ditto, Solar panels. One of the great difficulties of being totally "off grid" IS the fact that power requirements of Modern living add up to a substantial penalty.

I can`t advise on what to use/purchase. I can only suggest that having calculated your power requirements, add %age for losses (10%?) then do the maths. Read the tech spec`s for any equipment you consider buying with special emphasis on potential "power loss". The better stuff, as always, will be more expensive, having it professionally fitted will engender a cost too?. GOOD, rarely come cheap, and can also be over inflated.

Your Avtar details say Waiting, so I assume you are a bit of a "newbie". There is a lot of good advice around here from people with experience. Don`t be afraid to ask.

Yep, I've got plenty of storage in the outside lockers and we've always been comfortably below the payload and axle-load, so extra batteries & solar panels are an option.
I've been a member / lurker for the past 20 months or so, so probably still a new but I do enjoy coming on MHF for research and of course watching the fireworks.

What is an EHU?? The only time we ever use one of the is at home before we set off. We have a Sargent control panel built into our van, but we bypass it with our 350w of solar being fed into our 3 x Varta LFD 90's via 30amp ( I think) Victron solar charger
Also in the set up is a 1500w pure sine inverter and a 60amp B2b charger.
With this set up we have never needed to use an EHU whist away and we use the microwave daily for around 6mins.
The key is to make sure all your lights are LED's and make sure as much if not all you stuff is charged by or runs on 12v. As apposed to say using as inverter to run a TV, instead get a 12v TV.
PS we are hardly ever in sunny Europe, instead usually Ireland or as we are now in Scotland.

Sounds like you've got quiet the set up, how do you fair in winter with 350w of solar?

If you make your solar panels tiltable the output goes up to almost full power in winter. I put hinges on one side of ours.

View attachment 334666

OMG, thats great. Might have to do the same!

I think that lap top must have valves in it ?

#

lol its a newly released gaming laptop so I'm not surprised it pulls so much.

I get death threats when mentioning generators mainly from people who spend their holidays crammed in on aires or campsites for two weeks a year.

Just ignore it, especially one Scottish member who wanted to insert my generator in one particular aperture, because like me you would use your equipment sensibly and only when isolated. (actually I do not even own a generator!)

Despite all the calculations, angles of attack, what they claim to deliver, the practicalities of solar in winter is virtually useless unless you have a very large array tracking the sun and are in southern Spain or Morocco. You need other sources.

Install more batteries and more solar. even consider portable folding solar panels so you can deploy when parked, Get a large B2B if you are moving around. If not, and you stay away from people, a generator in winter as a back up (efoy or Honda) is something you will need as this is the time you use the most power and there is minimal sun.

Efoy downside: Expense and getting fuel. you already know the upsides. but is 4 grand worth it for six months?

Honda: downside: Carrying petrol, (you can get gas conversions or dual fuel) noise pollution. takes ages (almost to the point of useless) to charge a depleted battery bank. Upside is instant power to run high power appliances (heating, cooking if no gas etc)

Mmmm I always thought that my MH had a B2B as part of the EC700/PX-300 set up as whenever we've gone between locations with low battery its full a few hours later on arrival.
If I'm wrong or mis-understanding something, please let me know!

I think the efoy is going to be cost prohibitive, especially as you say "is it worth it for six months?"

 

[MyrtleGuru]

If it only has 120watts that's what it will pull.
120watt at 19.5v is only around 6amps.
A 12v charger dedicated to that make laptop will cope.
A 6amp bench charger will charge a 100ah battery but the battery will easily take 50amps if is there to take.
I can't see feeding the batteries direct having any effect on the Sargent unit.
Others may know better.

We fitted a 12v to 19v step-up module to provide power to an onboard PC. We only needed 4 amps, but you can get 10 amp modules, although these will likely have a heat sink, so will need some free air around them.

THIS week I bought

New offside Hymer wing mirror, to replace the one that fell out on a Belgium motorway in July I won't say what it cost, as it brings a tear to my eye everytime I think about it :cry: But to cheer myself up, i've booked a pitch at Camping Memling in Brugge to go and see the Xmas market next...

www.motorhomefun.co.uk

 

[romany]

Probably the way we camp but been away for coming up to a month in Ireland and battery's still over 12.9 volts 150wat solar, and charge phones and tablets when driving. fridge is on gas and 12v when driving TV 1 to 2 hours a day lighting is all led, use truma blown air system with old hair dryer hose to dry wife's hair if needed.

 

[Camping Gaza]

Mmmm I always thought that my MH had a B2B as part of the EC700/PX-300 set up as whenever we've gone between locations with low battery its full a few hours later on arrival.
If I'm wrong or mis-understanding something, please let me know!

I would check with your dealer or power panel manufacturer if you have a B2B installed... it's most uncommon

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}