New Motorhome Tax Costs? - 1st Sep 2019 (1 Viewer)

[Pausim]

I've read all this thread after hearing about this tax increase from a dealer. We are looking to buy our 1st motorhome soon and today found what we think is the perfect van for us. The dealer is selling it with lots of extras thrown in as it's the older engine type not 6d. We weren't quite ready to purchase and register by the 1st of September but if this new £2000 tax is going to apply if we don't we might just bite the bullet and get on with it. It's a 3.5t vehicle and over 40k with the old engine type so is this the case it needs to be purchased and registered before the 1st to avoid the tax hike? Thanks. So confused!

I believe pre 6D engines can be registered after 1 September but only if they appear on the manufacturers derogation list. Same advice as above, talk to the dealer.

I would not expect a 6B or 6C engine to have CO2 figures on the CoC. My newly manufactured motorhome with a 6B engine arrived in the UK at the very end of July with no CO2 figure, though other emission figures were given. It took 3 weeks for the registration to be processed, so it might already be a bit late for a 19 plate. Unless of course the dealer has pre registered the vehicle, in which case it might be worth asking for a discount as well as the extra goodies.

On the separate subject of 3.5t and lots of extras you might need to make sure you have a useable payload left, extras eat into payload. Many manufacturers give fanciful payload figures knowing that they don’t even make motorhomes without extras. If in doubt ask the dealer to take it to a weigh bridge to get an official weight certificate.

 

[nicholsong]

I have not kept up with all posts so maybe this idea has been muted before.

If one does the maths for the extra VED over 5 years on an under 3.5t MH compared with one over 3.5t at £165 p.a. it might be economical to take the test for C1 licence, since nearly all basic chassis can be registered over 3.5t. as a paper excercise - I did for mine and the converter just sent me a new 'plate' FOC. I had the C1 licence already.

Geoff

 

[Helen Ariel]

Have just spoken to another dealer at hymerworld and they said their most up to date info is that the engine type has nothing to do with the tax class but it will be based on the light or heavy chassis and any derogated vehicles that are already in the country regardless of engine type or whether they are registered before 1st September will be classed using the old system. New stock coming over will be the higher rate. So now i need to ask the sales guy if this van I'm looking at is derogated.

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[joka250]

My understanding is that provided it is not 6d engine it is not and will not be subject to new tax whether registered ppre September 1st or after.

 

[Pausim]

My understanding is that provided it is not 6d engine it is not and will not be subject to new tax whether registered ppre September 1st or after.

Yes but as said above it does have to be a derogated vehicle to be registered after 1 September.

 

[Hellboy]

Swift Dealer Information sheet on new VED...

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[Grianan]

So am I correct that you can avoid all this by uprating?

 

[joka250]

So am I correct that you can avoid all this by uprating?

My understanding is that the tax is the same for all weights of motorhome. A close look at the Swift chart shows the one rate for Euro 6d but different rates for 6b.

 

[Chriseui]

MMM September 2019 has a 1 page spread on this subject, page 30.

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[carolyn]

MMM September 2019 has a 1 page spread on this subject, page 30.

I am relying on the last sentence to be true " the changes will not affect motorhomes registered prior to September 1 and will only impact any models thereafter that are powered by the new generation (Euro 6d/2) engines)"
We ordered a new IH 630RD at the Malvern show and it is being built at Knottingley now, not that it would have stopped us buying it but it was a small factor in our equation re buying now or waiting a year. We won't be totally sure until we actually see the V5. The van arrived in the UK sometime in the last 2 weeks, was checked at the Fiat Professional garage and is now at IH so we will let you know.

It may be ready in October before our trip to Beni , if not then we will pick it up in December.

 

[gus-lopez]

My understanding is that the tax is the same for all weights of motorhome. A close look at the Swift chart shows the one rate for Euro 6d but different rates for 6b.

That is because one is shown as under 3500kgs and the other above 3500kgs which makes it phg.

 

[joka250]

That is because one is shown as under 3500kgs and the other above 3500kgs which makes it phg.

But that is for Euro 6b not 6d. I understand all 6d will be treated the same whatever weight.

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[Grianan]

Broken Link Removed

 

[Deneb]

But that is for Euro 6b not 6d. I understand all 6d will be treated the same whatever weight.

Since the emissions related Petrol Car and Diesel Car tax classes only apply to category M1 type vehicles having a MPW not exceeding 3500kgs, what makes you think that the Diesel Car tax can be applied to a motorhome with a higher MPW?

 

[nicholsong]

We who own MHs and understand engines and weights(well many of us) have filled 5 pages trying to define what is going to be in force.

Imagine what the numpties at DVLA are doing.

And it starts .......TOMORROW!

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[funflair]

We who own MHs and understand engines and weights(well many of us) have filled 5 pages trying to define what is going to be in force.

Imagine what the numpties at DVLA are doing.

And it starts .......TOMORROW!

Try reading this Geoff, https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32018R1832

Clear as mud.

Martin

 

[Deneb]

Actually, thinking about my previous reply - most motorhomes already registered have been allocated by DVLA policy to the PLG and PHGV tax classes, which do not actually apply to them by definition of the tax classes themselves, unless the motorhomes were first registered before 1st March 2001.

So there may be nothing stopping DVLA and/or the Treasury making a similar policy decision that all category M1SP vehicles irrespective of MPW should be slotted into the appropriate Diesel Car or Petrol Car tax class, even though those exceeding 3500kg MPW do not strictly fit the tax class definition.

So who knows, but if that were to happen it would certainly prevent any up-plating / down-plating malarkey prior to and after initial registration in an attempt to avoid the additional rates of duty!

 

[joka250]

Since the emissions related Petrol Car and Diesel Car tax classes only apply to category M1 type vehicles having a MPW not exceeding 3500kgs, what makes you think that the Diesel Car tax can be applied to a motorhome with a higher MPW?

I think you have answered that in your later post. I would stress that my comments are based on my interpretation of a variety of media reports and gov't. statements. I think that the whole field of motorhome VED has moved and mostly we are caught unawares.

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[nicholsong]

Try reading this Geoff, https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32018R1832

Clear as mud.

Martin

It carries Junker's signature - he is so succinct, isn't he?

 

[Hellboy]

Are we now saying that all new 6d engined motorhomes will show a CO2 emmission of over 255 g/km so £2135...I doubt it so lets assume the CoC shows only 190 g/km does that make the first years rate (TC49 - RDE2) £855 or (All others TC49) £1280?

 

[Deneb]

You are relying on the RDE/RDE2 emissions figures. The VCA currently show RDE CO2 emissions for a Ducato panel van range from 180 g/km for the smallest vehicles to 224 g/km for the larger high roof versions.

However, WLTP emissions figures are expected to be between 16-25% higher than those currently used on a like for like basis

Vehicle converters are apparently going to be allowed to use WLTP figures mathematically derived from the base vehicle figures if the conversion dimensions do not exceed those of the base vehicle by a specific margin. The tool has to be produced by the base vehicle manufacturer for the purpose, and certified accordingly. Otherwise I believe the conversions with a few exceptions have to be submitted for individual model WLTP testing.

An HM Treasury document contains a recommendation that WLTP figures should not be used to determine rates of vehicle tax until at least April 2020, when presumably the vehicle tax bands and costs should have been realigned by the new Finance Act.

The latter statement seems to have been conveniently left out of the documents circulated by motorhome dealers (which as you also seem to have concluded by the figures being [mis]represented may well have contained an element of propaganda intended to push prospective purchasers into buying sooner than otherwise and helping them to clear their current stock) and seems to me to be a reason why the scenario being suggested by the trade may not actually happen for some months, but...

Where does this leave the current situation?

Who knows. But new vehicles with Euro 6D engines now have to have the WLTP figure stated on their type approval or final stage CoC. DVLA policy is that vehicles having a CO2 emissions figure on the applicable document must be taxed in the relevant emissions related tax class, yet HM Treasury are recommending that the WLTP figures should not yet be used for that purpose.

Are you any wiser now? I know I'm not!

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[nicholsong]

I am definitely wiser, as I have yet another reason not to buy new.

Geoff

 

[tonyidle]

You do realise the fine for no tax will be a fraction of the tax cost.

Back tax is added to the fine?

 

[PepnKook]

From the reading I have done, the new VED rate and +£40,000 list price extra payment ONLY applies if the Moho has BOTH M1SP category AND the CO2 emissions are stated on the FINAL CoC (cert of conformity). If the Moho is listed as PLG or PHG then the VED will remain the same as these are not included in the scheme. So as long as your V5 says PLG, none of this will apply and you'll continue to pay the current duty.....I think! The fact that Moho's registered after the 1st of September with a euro 6d engine, which is supposed to be more efficient and less polluting, has to pay the higher amount if the two conditions above are met (CoC and M1SP), makes no sense! But then again, the fact that the older the engine, the cheaper it is to tax is totally counter intuitive to the whole green movement. Surely the idea should be the less polluting and newer your engine, the cheaper it is to tax, hence encouraging people to invest in new, clean engines? Making it more expensive makes zero logic!

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[BILL 875]

I see a lot of people who park there mh up and not use it for a month or two cashing in the tax for a refund I would

 

[PepnKook]

I see a lot of people who park there mh up and not use it for a month or two cashing in the tax for a refund I would

With the monthly payments, makes it a lot easier. Know I'll be SORN'ing between November and March, can always pop it on for a month if needs be.

 

[Deneb]

From the reading I have done, the new VED rate and +£40,000 list price extra payment ONLY applies if the Moho has BOTH M1SP category AND the CO2 emissions are stated on the FINAL CoC (cert of conformity). If the Moho is listed as PLG or PHG then the VED will remain the same as these are not included in the scheme. So as long as your V5 says PLG, none of this will apply and you'll continue to pay the current duty.....I think! The fact that Moho's registered after the 1st of September with a euro 6d engine, which is supposed to be more efficient and less polluting, has to pay the higher amount if the two conditions above are met (CoC and M1SP), makes no sense! But then again, the fact that the older the engine, the cheaper it is to tax is totally counter intuitive to the whole green movement. Surely the idea should be the less polluting and newer your engine, the cheaper it is to tax, hence encouraging people to invest in new, clean engines? Making it more expensive makes zero logic!

If the MH is already taxed as PLG or PHGV nothing will change because it has already been registered! All motorhomes are M1 Special Purpose category vehicles by definition. It is only a requirement to include the CO2 figure on the CoC that is being enforced for new production.

The regime for the new engines does make sense, although it may not be popular. The basic rate of tax is actually almost half that of PLG, but it is the supplement charged on first registration which relates to the purchase price of the vehicle, plus the additional charge for the first five years which makes it more expensive. Yes, the government is trying to encourage a switch to less polluting vehicles which is why there is a surcharge in place for expensive vehicles which are generally considered to emit more emissions than less costly vehicles, due to most being fitted with larger or more powerful engines, and larger, heavier bodies. You can avoid that by buying a less polluting vehicle and avoiding the additional tax surcharges (which attempt to incentivise that purchasing decision) but due to their size and relatively higher emissions, even with the newer engines, vehicles qualifying for the cheaper tax rates are unlikely to be motorhomes.

Motorhomes are certainly at the higher end of the emissions scale for motor cars (which is what motorhomes with a MPW of no more than 3500kgs legally are). From my previous post you can see that the VCA stated emissions for a Ducato panel van rise from 180 g/km for a low roof short wheelbase van to 224 g/km for an identical van with the 6.3 metre body and H3 high roof. Imagine what difference a similar sized but also wider body, possibly with a less streamlined contour between the upper line of the windscreen and the roof extension, might make to those figures.

Instead of thinking that motorhomes are being unjustly penalised, think instead that for 18 years they have escaped "fair" treatment in comparison to other motor cars by having been able to largely avoid emissions based taxation due to a legal anomaly that is now being closed. If a requirement to place the CO2 figures on the final stage CoC had been in force throughout that period, none would have been taxed in the PLG band at all. Maybe they've had a good run so far, and hopefully the anomaly affecting already registered vehicles taxed in the PLG band won't be removed at a future date!

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[Cheshirecat57]

I see a lot of people who park there mh up and not use it for a month or two cashing in the tax for a refund I would

What would that achieve?

 

[Sasbo]

Update from collecting new 69 plate motorhome today.

Well it seems my dealer was not guilty of 'gilding the lilly' and was truthful when they advised that my new Euro 6c 3500kg motorhome would be taxed at the existing VED rate (post No. 54 in this thread) and thats what happened when it was taxed with DVLA today.

So, as for the stories being peddled by some dealers at the outset of this thread, I will leave you to make up your own mind!!

 

[Lenny HB]

I see a lot of people who park there mh up and not use it for a month or two cashing in the tax for a refund I would

I don't think you would gain much as it's an additional tax on top of the £265 VED so you would probably only get a portion of the £265 back.

With the monthly payments, makes it a lot easier. Know I'll be SORN'ing between November and March, can always pop it on for a month if needs be.

One of the best ways of wrecking your pride and joy leaving it standing around for months unused.

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