Motorhome Engine Remapping (4 Viewers)

[Derbyshire wanderer]

5" outwardly rolled works for me

Only 5"? So 1980's
A motorhome deserves at least a 9" letterbox or a dragster pipe

 

[Ridgeway]

It's interesting that the overwhelming view is don't do it, too much stress on parts, manufacturer will have optimised etc.

On a popular Land Rover site I use, I'd guess 30-40% of the users have remapped their vehicles just for better drivability and economy. Better MPG and a more enjoyable/smoother ride sound good to me.

Perhaps there isn't enough market interest to develop the best remaps for a predominantly Fiat based segment ?

I haven't remapped the van but I have had my car done and the result was well worth it.

 

[GAVLAD]

I've seen two separate x244 2.8jtd Ducatos with weeping fuel rail connections, guess what, both had been remapped! The latest generation common rail fuel systems can deliver up to eight individually timed fuel injection events per cylinder per firing stroke. The fuel system makers and the motor manufacturers spend hundreds of thousands of pounds to create the fueling map. Do we really believe that someone with a laptop can really write a better map? I don't!!

D.

This is an interesting post for me as I've had discussions with my motorhome mechanic regarding remaps.
According to him, my 2009 X250 3l diesel 160hp is capable of easily upping to 190hp and that Fiat caps the hp dependant on country but uses the same parts (fuel pump, clutch etc) for all regardless of what they've set the hp at, so by doing so, would not put any detrimental stress on the other parts, as the design is well within its limits by such a fine tune. (He's offered a full remap personal to my motorhome and has advised that if I'm unsatisfied, that he will return it to its original state).
I'm after slightly better fuel economy. (Tag axle, 5200kgs with massive overcab bed) hence this being an interesting topic to me before I part with my cash.

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[Langtoftlad]

Luckily I won't have that dilemma with my forthcoming new van - it's a Citroen Relay 2.2hdi 130ps - because no-one has developed a remap.
I wonder if we're getting to the point as manufacturers build smaller engines with more power where they are actually getting the best out of their powerplants, to the extent that there's not much more the remappers can safely eke out.

 

[skylinersi]

Only 5"? So 1980's
A motorhome deserves at least a 9" letterbox or a dragster pipe

side exit, str8 thru tho innit

 

[Silver-Fox]

I don't really understand your assertion that diesel engines are "well over engineered". I worked in international automotive and aerospace engineering companies for many many years and that simply is not a concept I ever recall hearing from any Design Engineer.

Any engineer will design in so said item will not be running at say 98% of its capacity, no matter what it is be it a bolt to say a landing gear for a plane.

We always called it belt and braces design

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[Ridgeway]

That's a very good point although the usual phenomena that creates this opportunity is that the original engine map is a compromised profile i.e. one that works "OK" in damp hilly UK and also "OK" in other areas. Also it has to allow for many driving styles and loads. The result is a jack of all trades master of non map.

If I look at the UK version of what I did on my car it has a different profile of the same map from the same supplier in France, he said something about the UK being wetter

Also engine manufacturers often keep something back for later range repositioning. JLR have just released a new SDV6 in the Discovery 5 that comes in at 258hp, it will become 320 within the next 2yrs once they need to jack up sales and may finally reach 340

 

[skylinersi]

I is gonna get the NOS.............

 

[wigster]

I know the original question was about newish vans but my oldish 2.7 merc A class pulls up hill fine , 4.6 tonne nearly 8 meter van.
I can do 70 on motorways to overtake a line of lorry's but normally do 55 to 60.
I get north of 25 mpg which im happy with .
Its not the best of handling vehicles i have ever driven so going faster is not really appealing .
I have heard of these engines losing cylinders from lean burning fuel wise .
Had a new clutch and dual mass flywheel fitted November ,great service and not bad price if anyone's interested, van is running like clockwork at the mo its done 83 k miles .
so its a no from me

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[dave newell]

This is an interesting post for me as I've had discussions with my motorhome mechanic regarding remaps.
According to him, my 2009 X250 3l diesel 160hp is capable of easily upping to 190hp and that Fiat caps the hp dependant on country but uses the same parts (fuel pump, clutch etc) for all regardless of what they've set the hp at, so by doing so, would not put any detrimental stress on the other parts, as the design is well within its limits by such a fine tune. (He's offered a full remap personal to my motorhome and has advised that if I'm unsatisfied, that he will return it to its original state).
I'm after slightly better fuel economy. (Tag axle, 5200kgs with massive overcab bed) hence this being an interesting topic to me before I part with my cash.

Fiat don't use the same components across a range, my 2009 Ducato 120 bhp has a different turbo to the one fitted on a 130 bhp although the basic engine is the same 2.3 litre unit. What else might be different? Cams, clutch?
How does a third party write a "better" map than the factory when it does up to eight individually timed injection events per cylinder per firing stroke? Obviously the individual timings are not being significantly altered so the only other parameters are boost pressure and fuel pressure. My belief is that many, if not all remaps increase boost pressures and fuel rail pressure ( as an aside modern common rail systems are running around 3000 bar fuel pressure!) Increased rail pressure can lead to leaking joints in the HP fuel system, it might also lead to premature injector problems.


D.

 

[Jim]

it might also lead to premature injector problems.

I'm definitely not getting it done then

 

[eddie]

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a310/1802932/

This tests the usual 'Add ons' like 'water vapour, magnets and air vortex manifolds'

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[Derbyshire wanderer]

Fiat don't use the same components across a range, my 2009 Ducato 120 bhp has a different turbo to the one fitted on a 130 bhp although the basic engine is the same 2.3 litre unit. What else might be different? Cams, clutch?
How does a third party write a "better" map than the factory when it does up to eight individually timed injection events per cylinder per firing stroke? Obviously the individual timings are not being significantly altered so the only other parameters are boost pressure and fuel pressure. My belief is that many, if not all remaps increase boost pressures and fuel rail pressure ( as an aside modern common rail systems are running around 3000 bar fuel pressure!) Increased rail pressure can lead to leaking joints in the HP fuel system, it might also lead to premature injector problems.


D.

That sums up exactly why I don't believe in remaps.
Generally they can only
increase the fuel pressure cut off
Increase the turbo boost pressure
Increase the fuel quantity
Unless other changes are made to the mechanical parts the result of the above is?
Increase the STRESS of the engine.
Motorhomes and stress?
No thanks

 

[GAVLAD]

Fiat don't use the same components across a range, my 2009 Ducato 120 bhp has a different turbo to the one fitted on a 130 bhp although the basic engine is the same 2.3 litre unit. What else might be different? Cams, clutch?
How does a third party write a "better" map than the factory when it does up to eight individually timed injection events per cylinder per firing stroke? Obviously the individual timings are not being significantly altered so the only other parameters are boost pressure and fuel pressure. My belief is that many, if not all remaps increase boost pressures and fuel rail pressure ( as an aside modern common rail systems are running around 3000 bar fuel pressure!) Increased rail pressure can lead to leaking joints in the HP fuel system, it might also lead to premature injector problems.


D.

Hi Dave, I should have been more clear with my description in that my mechanic was saying Fiat use the same parts (fuel pump, filter, clutch etc) for the 3l diesel model in the UK where Bhp is 160 as they do in other countries where the same engine has 190 bhp.
Not across different engines like 2.3 using same parts as a 3l.

 

[skylinersi]

Fiat don't use the same components across a range, my 2009 Ducato 120 bhp has a different turbo to the one fitted on a 130 bhp although the basic engine is the same 2.3 litre unit. What else might be different? Cams, clutch?
How does a third party write a "better" map than the factory when it does up to eight individually timed injection events per cylinder per firing stroke? Obviously the individual timings are not being significantly altered so the only other parameters are boost pressure and fuel pressure. My belief is that many, if not all remaps increase boost pressures and fuel rail pressure ( as an aside modern common rail systems are running around 3000 bar fuel pressure!) Increased rail pressure can lead to leaking joints in the HP fuel system, it might also lead to premature injector problems.


D.

I think u mean 3000 psi
Not 3000 bar !!!!!!!!

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[funflair]

I think u mean 3000 psi
Not 3000 bar !!!!!!!!

I think he does mean 3000 bar which is possible now.

Martin

 

[skylinersi]

I think he does mean 3000 bar which is possible now.

Martin

43511.32 psi..........seems high as that pressure will cut steel however, upon researching further it seems it is possible in crd, so i stand duly corrected

 

[eddie]

43511.32 psi..........seems high as that pressure will cut steel however, upon researching further it seems it is possible in crd, so i stand duly corrected

It sounds scary doesn't it lol

And then, in a field at the Peterborough show, a man with a Gazebo and a laptop will turn the pressure up a bit more! lol

I wounder why main dealers don't offer engine remapping? It mus void the warranty let alone the vehicle insurance?

Has anyone any experience of having their engine re-mapped and subsequent discussions with their insurance company?

I had a motorhome mapped, but my traders insurance policy allows me to drive anything fully comprehensively so there is no point in me advising our insurers

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[Forestboy]

Guy with a laptop out performs major motor manufacturers.

Give me £250.00 I'll plug my magic laptop in and by the time you've had a cuppa I'll make your van more powerful and increase mpg.
Sounds bloody ridiculous when you write it like that but that's it and plenty fall for it including me.
Of course it doesn't work, you can't push a huge motorhome faster or increase torque and increase mpg but not many people will admit being duped will they.
Well my experience is well documented on here as a warning so I'm not writing it all again but it was the worst £250/300 I ever wasted.

 

[Langtoftlad]

Notwithstanding all the very common sense opinions previously posted - is it not conceivable that when manufacturers offer the optional power upgrade, they are not putting in a different engine or bolting on better parts but simply doing an in-house remap?

From a quickly sourced PracticalMotorhome review:
http://www.practicalmotorhome.com/n...n-motorhomes-for-2017-innovative-layouts-star

"The Fiat’s 2.3-litre engine is available in three states of tune, delivering 130, 150 or 180hp...
and
...Upgrading from the 130hp Ford engine to the 170hp version costs £1200, while on Fiats it is £1200 to go from the 130hp to the 150hp unit, and £2800 to swap the 130hp powerplant for the 180hp variant."

 

[funflair]

Notwithstanding all the very common sense opinions previously posted - is it not conceivable that when manufacturers offer the optional power upgrade, they are not putting in a different engine or bolting on better parts but simply doing an in-house remap?

From a quickly sourced PracticalMotorhome review:
http://www.practicalmotorhome.com/n...n-motorhomes-for-2017-innovative-layouts-star

"The Fiat’s 2.3-litre engine is available in three states of tune, delivering 130, 150 or 180hp...
and
...Upgrading from the 130hp Ford engine to the 170hp version costs £1200, while on Fiats it is £1200 to go from the 130hp to the 150hp unit, and £2800 to swap the 130hp powerplant for the 180hp variant."

I guess the point is that we don't know what else the manufacturer does when he alters the power out via the ECU "map"

Years ago we had a Mercedes 240 TD diesel estate, in Germany you could buy them as a turbo diesel but not in the UK, you could buy a kit and bolt on a turbo and up the fueling rates in the pump and the injection pressures, the factory fitted lump also included different con rods that delivered a small oil jet to the underside of the pistons to cool them.

I bolted one on anyway and all was OK.

Martin

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[funflair]

And just for the record our 3 litre IVECO has been remapped, I don't drive it flat out, I don't drive it at maximum weight and maximum towing load so I don't believe that the action of the remap has or will place undue strain on the rest of the mechanicals. If it was running fully loaded and working really hard I might worry about just dialing in more power to try to overcome any shortfall in.

Would I have a new van done? well the current IVECO is 205bhp from the factory in top spec so I am not convinced it would need it, if I got say 3% better fuel economy? possibly would go for it.

Martin

 

[Langtoftlad]

I guess the point is that we don't know what else the manufacturer does when he alters the power out via the ECU "map"

I wonder why one of the "Enthusiast or Modding" publications - or one of the big Remappers haven't done a comparison to see if the £1200 optional upgrade does have any different parts, or whether it simply is a change to the ECU map?

 

[pyro]

I am pretty naïve about mechanical things, and I have learned a lot from this thread, thanks to all those contributing.

I had thought about remapping, trying to weigh up the pros and cons, and had come to the conclusion that being perfectly satisfied with the performance of my Ducato 5+ 130 engine, what was the point in increasing the load on the engine and jeopardising its longevity by effectively "overclocking" it.

A little extra on performance is always appreciated, but it isn't a racing car, it is used for recreational purposes. Reliability is more important to me. I have come to the conclusion that the designers of the engine must know a lot more about what they have created than that man in a field with a laptop

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[MC 55 FUN]

One of the most respected & professional remapping companies in the U.K.

http://www.superchips.co.uk/

Not quite a bloke in a gazebo in a field with a laptop.

 

[Langtoftlad]

I had thought about remapping, trying to weigh up the pros and cons, and had come to the conclusion that being perfectly satisfied with the performance of my Ducato 5+ 130 engine, what was the point in increasing the load on the engine and jeopardising its longevity by effectively "overclocking" it.

...but what if your 130ps engine was actually a 150ps or 170ps that had simply been de-tuned or "underclocked"?

 

[dave newell]

I wonder why one of the "Enthusiast or Modding" publications - or one of the big Remappers haven't done a comparison to see if the £1200 optional upgrade does have any different parts, or whether it simply is a change to the ECU map?

Well I know for a fact that Fiat's 2.3 Ducato engine has a different turbo for 120BHP output compared to the 130BHP unit.

D.

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[pyro]

...but what if your 130ps engine was actually a 150ps or 170ps that had simply been de-tuned or "underclocked"?

Then it would surely have a longer life expectancy thanks to being undertuned?

 

[Langtoftlad]

Well I know for a fact that Fiat's 2.3 Ducato engine has a different turbo for 120BHP output compared to the 130BHP unit.
D.

For the mechanically illiterate
Would/could just bolting on a better turbo unit account for an increase of 10BHP leaving everything else the same?
When I was a student some of my petrolhead mates were always buying different bits to make their motor "sportier" [in the days when engines were mechanical, not the box of electronics they seem to be now]

 

[MC 55 FUN]

I wonder why one of the "Enthusiast or Modding" publications - or one of the big Remappers haven't done a comparison to see if the £1200 optional upgrade does have any different parts, or whether it simply is a change to the ECU map?

A good example of the same engine with differing outputs is the award winning Ford 3 pot ecoboost engine - available from 99bhp to 138 bhp & another is the venerable Ford Puma 2.2 Duratorq as fitted to many Moho's from 99bhp to 153bhp guise - as fitted to Mondeo MK3 ST TDCi's

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