Motorhome Engine Remapping (4 Viewers)

[Kevan]

Ducato euro 5 engine 2.2 comes in 130bhp 150bhp and 180bhp, question is it the same engine remapped or are the engines different?

 

[andy63]

That sums up exactly why I don't believe in remaps.
Generally they can only
increase the fuel pressure cut off
Increase the turbo boost pressure
Increase the fuel quantity
Unless other changes are made to the mechanical parts the result of the above is?
Increase the STRESS of the engine.
Motorhomes and stress?
No thanks

I just don't get that... obviously the major factors will be fuel and boost,but a remap unlike a plug in device can change any parameter on the original map that controls timing of fuel and power output... engine load, eng temp,speed, air temp, etc.. I've alreday said I've had the egr function written out of my latest transit map...
In days gone by we got our hands dirty trying to wring a bit more out of an engine... now you don't have to... you can tune it with a laptop... (well someone that knows what they are doind can )it's always been done.. and most engines and drive trains can cope. ... Imo.
If anything will effect the ability to put a viable re map on an engine it will be the manufacturers fitting smaller and smaller units producing more and more power.. think someone mentioned that earlier anyway...
Andy..

 

[pyro]

For the mechanically illiterate

Of which I am one

Would/could just bolting on a better turbo unit account for an increase of 10BHP leaving everything else the same?
When I was a student some of my petrolhead mates were always buying different bits to make their motor "sportier" [in the days when engines were mechanical, not the box of electronics they seem to be now]

Two points there: 1) A replacement turbo costs a lot of money 2) The additional stresses would diminish life expectancy, surely?

My point is that if I am satisfied with the performance (which I am), the lack of additional stress on engine, clutch and gearbox will surely give me a longer operational life/reduced down time?

As for power for it's own sake, never been one to waste money on fancy exhausts and go faster stripes

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[Langtoftlad]

...and if, as has been said, these global manufacturers, make their engines to cope with various conditions around the world or indeed in different vehicles - it is reasonable to assume that a remap can safely improve performance suitable to local conditions?
[caveat - if you remap for UK conditions, might you be taking more of a risk if you take your van to the Pyrenees or Morocco]

 

[Langtoftlad]

Two points there: 1) A replacement turbo costs a lot of money 2) The additional stresses would diminish life expectancy, surely?

My point is that if I am satisfied with the performance (which I am), the lack of additional stress on engine, clutch and gearbox will surely give me a longer operational life/reduced down time?

I don't disagree with that theory - but if the life of the commercial vehicle base powerplant is, for arguments sake, 200,000 miles - is a 10% reduction, is that going to affect you in the real world when in a MH you might on do 50,000 miles in a decade...?

 

[pyro]

I don't disagree with that theory - but if the life of the commercial vehicle base powerplant is, for arguments sake, 200,000 miles - is a 10% reduction, is that going to affect you in the real world when in a MH you might on do 50,000 miles in a decade...?

That's a fair perspective.

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[andy63]

My point is that if I am satisfied with the performance (which I am), the lack of additional stress on engine, clutch and gearbox will surely give me a longer operational life/reduced down time?

That sounds right ,and if you are happy with the way it drives why would you...
But as has been said it's not just about power ...
Torque and the range over which it is delivered can change the feel of the way a vehicle drives ... done badly I can see that can strain a drive train,but my experience has been OK on that front... yes the more you wring out of an engine the more down time you will have to put up with...
Extreme I know but a race engine may well be rebuilt frequently whereas a normal used engine can go a lifetime without been stripped..
Andy.

 

[Derbyshire wanderer]

I just don't get that... obviously the major factors will be fuel and boost,but a remap unlike a plug in device can change any parameter on the original map that controls timing of fuel and power output... engine load, eng temp,speed, air temp, etc.. I've alreday said I've had the egr function written out of my latest transit map...
In days gone by we got our hands dirty trying to wring a bit more out of an engine... now you don't have to... you can tune it with a laptop... (well someone that knows what they are doind can )it's always been done.. and most engines and drive trains can cope. ... Imo.
If anything will effect the ability to put a viable re map on an engine it will be the manufacturers fitting smaller and smaller units producing more and more power.. think someone mentioned that earlier anyway...
Andy..

As I said, remapping usually can only alter the fuel and boost.
Real tuning will require the fuel and camshaft timings to be altered but most engines cannot do this.
Without variable valve timing the changes usually will only move the torque or power but at a cost to other areas of the performance.
I am sure you like the idea but to me its for rally and race cars

 

[jaygee]

My experience with remapping is well documented on this forum so dont want to go over old ground but in a nutshell after having a remap with WOW then having it redone with a slight tune (as they put it) by same company after clutch problem, i had a mate of mine who owns a tuning company look at the ecu map as knew it didn't feel right.
He found that WOW had only increased the fuel rail pressure which i could have got the same results from a cheap tuning box off ebay!
He wrote a new programme to cover all aspects with the engine/vehicle weight/design and driving needs, I believe this is the only way to go.

Tony

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[andy63]

As I said, remapping usually can only alter the fuel and boost.
Real tuning will require the fuel and camshaft timings to be altered but most engines cannot do this.
Without variable valve timing the changes usually will only move the torque or power but at a cost to other areas of the performance.
I am sure you like the idea but to me its for rally and race cars

That's not the way I see it...
A remap can alter any aspect of the ecus response to the sensors around the engine but obviously some have more affect on the power an engine will deliver than others..
Take your point on valve timing but again I don't see that as such a critical factor as it used to be when most engines were normally aspirated .. it's all about getting the right mix of fuel and air and that's more easily controlled irrespective of valve timing these days with variable boost and fuel injection on both petrol and diesel...
Andy.

 

[Derbyshire wanderer]

That's not the way I see it...
A remap can alter any aspect of the ecus response to the sensors around the engine but obviously some have more affect on the power an engine will deliver than others..
Take your point on valve timing but again I don't see that as such a critical factor as it used to be when most engines were normally aspirated .. it's all about getting the right mix of fuel and air and that's more easily controlled irrespective of valve timing these days with variable boost and fuel injection on both petrol and diesel...
Andy.

While I can understand your point it still comes back to (with the mechanicals being untouched) putting in more fuel to gain more power yet the manufacturer did all of this before it was sold.
My point is not that remapping does or does not work but that doing it to a leisure vehicle is generally pointless.

 

[andy63]

My point is not that remapping does or does not work but that doing it to a leisure vehicle is generally pointless.

And my limited experience says I would have to agree... I've only owned one coach built mh and for less than a year and it seems to be a decent enough drive as standard...
Andy

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[Derbyshire wanderer]

And my limited experience says I would have to agree... I've only owned one coach built mh and for less than a year and it seems to be a decent enough drive as standard...
Andy

My experience with mapping is mainly on rally cars so the adaptions are quite extreme and made driving it on the public road either difficult or illegal
Apart from the drivability, longevity and reliability (on road vehicles), I would be concerned with both the insurance implications and the emissions.

 

[andy63]

I would be concerned with both the insurance implications and the emissions.

On the emissions front it's never been a problem at mot time with the car or the transit... and the transit has no egr function on it now..
Insurance wise there seems to be a lot of variation.. some won't touch you.. others just charge more and ive read on here that some wernt bothere'd and there was no extra cost...
Andy.

 

[Dognewf]

i had it done to my 05 ducatto based van. i found the same engine came at 85 or 100 bhp, only difference being the state of tune. I had the 85 one. re-mapped to estimated 110. made driving much easier, nothing at all to do with speed just driveability. if the clutch goes, I will get a heavy duty one put in.

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[Derbyshire wanderer]

On the emissions front it's never been a problem at mot time with the car or the transit... and the transit has no egr function on it now..
Insurance wise there seems to be a lot of variation.. some won't touch you.. others just charge more and ive read on here that some wernt bothere'd and there was no extra cost...
Andy.

Whilst the EGR is not tested at the MOT, my concern is these roadside checks that appear to be made more and more. It is similar to removing the internals from a catalytic converter and although cannot be seen is still illegal.
Don't get me wrong, I have done it too but feel that the modern enforcement methods are now ahead of the game and it is becoming not will they find out but when.
As for insurance companies you may have seen some of my other posts that I do not hold them in high regard. They will probably load the premium or request an engineers report for the modifications. Again, far too much hassle for me to bother.

 

[funflair]

My experience with mapping is mainly on rally cars so the adaptions are quite extreme and made driving it on the public road either difficult or illegal
Apart from the drivability, longevity and reliability (on road vehicles), I would be concerned with both the insurance implications and the emissions.

I don't think that remapping a diesel motorhome makes it into a snarling flame spitting Groupe B monster, when ours was done at Cheshire motorhome show by the time we got into second gear away from the roundabout onto the motorway Mrs funfair commented how much smoother and quieter the engine was, and yes it pulled better as well.

Martin

 

[injebreck99]

I had our 2.3 Bolero remapped 3 years ago from 130bhp, never knew the new bhp figure , but was much more pleasant to drive, being smoother and quieter, with increased midrange from 3rd gear upwards, no mechanical problems resulted from the remap, 10% better fuel comsumption, my insurance company (Comfort), didn't want to know, I will have our upcoming A/S Broadway remapped later by the same company as before. My choice.

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[ramsthom]

It sounds scary doesn't it lol

And then, in a field at the Peterborough show, a man with a Gazebo and a laptop will turn the pressure up a bit more! lol

I wounder why main dealers don't offer engine remapping? It mus void the warranty let alone the vehicle insurance?

Has anyone any experience of having their engine re-mapped and subsequent discussions with their insurance company?

I had a motorhome mapped, but my traders insurance policy allows me to drive anything fully comprehensively so there is no point in me advising our insurers

Not had a remap done but when with Caravan Guard insurance they put a newsletter out a couple of years ago stating they allowed a remap to increase bhp of up to 20% and no need to inform them. Not sure it still applies.

 

[GordyE]

Our engines were not designed to be excellent at anything but more a "jack of all trades". The manufacturer cannot possibly produce an engine that is all things to all users. So they have to design it with compromises on performance, efficiency, noise, emissions etc so it will be useful to the broadest range of customers. You cannot tell an unscrupulous delivery company they have to change the oil or be imprisoned. You cannot stop bad guys washing out diesel particulate filters via hosepipes into domestic drains. You cannot stop people removing the DPF altogether in between MOTs and fitting a straight pipe. You can't even stop manufacturers from faking emissions limits. In the USA they sell stack pipes for pick up trucks etc which look like those tall chrome pipes the big rigs have. They have kits which deliberately dump unburnt fuel into the stack to deliberately bilge black smoke to look like the old trucks! Go figure! But you CAN sell a vehicle with a dumbed-down engine map which works for all.
If you want to eek more performance, fuel economy, torque from your engine a remap/re-chip/plug-in module will most likely improve YOUR engine for what YOU use your engine for. But there will be compromises. You may have to change the oil more often. Your emissions might go up. Your engine or ancillaries might live less. If you remap this can be detected by the manufacturer. If you re-chip this can too unless you remove the chip and replace with the original before sending the vehicle into the garage. If you plug-in then you can unplug before going to the garage.
You MUST tell your insurers. You WILL get benefits for the way YOU drive YOUR vehicle if it is done by a reputable company. Reputable companies also back their products up with a warranty which runs parallel to any vehicle warranty. Fitting to new vehicles is actually no problem if you have a warranty on the modification.
So summarising you will get improvements for the way you drive (be it better fuel economy, more torque, more power so less gear changes etc) if you have the work done for you by a reputable company backed by a warranty. You have to decide whether the outlay is worth it for you. No one else can decide this for you because their circumstances are likely different. Many large fleets are getting remaps done at delivery for economies of scale so go do the research for your particular circumstances. If you warm your oil and turbo and let it cool down when you're finished and change your oil (more often than the 2 years 20 odd thousand mile interval or so) then you're in for a better experience!

 

[skylinersi]

Our engines were not designed to be excellent at anything but more a "jack of all trades". The manufacturer cannot possibly produce an engine that is all things to all users. So they have to design it with compromises on performance, efficiency, noise, emissions etc so it will be useful to the broadest range of customers. You cannot tell an unscrupulous delivery company they have to change the oil or be imprisoned. You cannot stop bad guys washing out diesel particulate filters via hosepipes into domestic drains. You cannot stop people removing the DPF altogether in between MOTs and fitting a straight pipe. You can't even stop manufacturers from faking emissions limits. In the USA they sell stack pipes for pick up trucks etc which look like those tall chrome pipes the big rigs have. They have kits which deliberately dump unburnt fuel into the stack to deliberately bilge black smoke to look like the old trucks! Go figure! But you CAN sell a vehicle with a dumbed-down engine map which works for all.
If you want to eek more performance, fuel economy, torque from your engine a remap/re-chip/plug-in module will most likely improve YOUR engine for what YOU use your engine for. But there will be compromises. You may have to change the oil more often. Your emissions might go up. Your engine or ancillaries might live less. If you remap this can be detected by the manufacturer. If you re-chip this can too unless you remove the chip and replace with the original before sending the vehicle into the garage. If you plug-in then you can unplug before going to the garage.
You MUST tell your insurers. You WILL get benefits for the way YOU drive YOUR vehicle if it is done by a reputable company. Reputable companies also back their products up with a warranty which runs parallel to any vehicle warranty. Fitting to new vehicles is actually no problem if you have a warranty on the modification.
So summarising you will get improvements for the way you drive (be it better fuel economy, more torque, more power so less gear changes etc) if you have the work done for you by a reputable company backed by a warranty. You have to decide whether the outlay is worth it for you. No one else can decide this for you because their circumstances are likely different. Many large fleets are getting remaps done at delivery for economies of scale so go do the research for your particular circumstances. If you warm your oil and turbo and let it cool down when you're finished and change your oil (more often than the 2 years 20 odd thousand mile interval or so) then you're in for a better experience!

past experience tells me that those who do the remaps wont cover a blown engine..............

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[GordyE]

I am not the Stig! But here is an example I was talking about of a reputable company backed by warranty who do remapping for major fleet customers (it's big business large scale stuff):

http://www.commercialfleet.org/news...tunings-launches-remapping-for-fleet-vehicles

 

[wizzer59]

and change your oil (more often than the 2 years 20 odd thousand mile interval or so) then you're in for a better experience!

Oh mate you can't do that there are folks on here who will swear that thats bad for your engine

 

[GordyE]

I know! Great advice eh?! I've never had an engine fail. I had the BMW service technician ask my permission to keep my "flush" oil after he drained it at the BMW main dealers. I used brand new Mobil 1 to flush! Haha.

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