LPG near disaster refilling

[stewartwebr]

I prefer the system I and David have

It's no different from having a spare calor bottle. Which most people without a refillable system carry ...you just need to make sure the bottle is closed obviously. And as I'm the only one who touches mine it's the first thing I do before removing the pig tail

But you always know how much gas you have. When a bottle empties change hose and refill empty bottle.
Never run out

Surely if you fitted a fail safe system, where all physical intervention is removed as in both bottles perminantly connected, you would just leave one bottle isolated which would give you the same level of control you currently have but would remove the risk of potential disaster through human error. For a couple of pounds and now we have evidence of a near miss I know what I would be doing.

 

[Northernraider]

Surely if you fitted a fail safe system, where all physical intervention is removed as in both bottles perminantly connected, you would just leave one bottle isolated which would give you the same level of control you currently have but would remove the risk of potential disaster through human error. For a couple of pounds and now we have evidence of a near miss I know what I would be doing.

The point was the kit was fitted as supplied brand new.

I've already said twice now in previous replies that yes the fitting of a t piece and additional pig tail may remove the chance of operator error. But the system is still perfectly safe without doing so if used correctly.

I'm still in Spain my van is advertised for sale and I've 4 potential buyers viewing it between Dover and Scotland on my return.
When showing the van to them and the refillable gas system I will happily mention to them that should they wish to buy the van they may want to add a second pig tail and t piece for peace of mind.

But that's their choice.

 

[scotjimland]

As a H&S manager, I was trained and qualified by NEBOSH, risk assessing and how to reduce risks and if possible remove the hazards in the workplace.. The same principals apply to filling LPG bottles,

When a hazard has been identified, in this case, the risk of leaving an LPG bottle open when filling.

The best option is Elimination, remove the hazard by replacing the single POL pigtail with two pigtails and a T piece and either a manual or auto changeover valve.

Hierarchy of hazard control is a system used in industry to minimise or eliminate exposure to hazards..

It is a widely accepted system promoted by numerous safety organizations. This concept is taught to managers in industry, to be promoted as standard practice in the workplace. Various illustrations are used to depict this system, most commonly a triangle.

The hazard controls in the hierarchy are, in order of decreasing effectiveness:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierarchy_of_hazard_controls

You can train and educate, but while there is a risk present, that day you forget the training.. is the day you have an accident..
Elimination prevents that accident happening.

The HSE define an accident as “any unplanned event that resulted in injury or ill health of people, or damage or loss to property, plant, materials or the environment or a loss of business opportunity”.

 

[andy63]

The point was the kit was fitted as supplied brand new.

One final post tam @Northernraider ..i just spoke to gas it... he said they will supply whatever the customer orders but if anyone isnt sure of what they want and phone in they will be advised... needless to say he just confirmed what i thought... he would never recommend the system you have ... ie using one pigtail and changing over connections .. so you may well have bought it as a kit but its not what they would supply to a customer routinely buying a twin refillable system... unless thats all they insisted on...
Hope that helps lol.. now go buy a kayak and a high lift roof rack..
Andy..

 

[Basildog]

As a gas trained bod I wouldn’t like to install a system like the OP , it’s a potential problem waiting to happen and as said by others a risk that can so easily be eliminated.
I would personally do away with the POL adapters too and use 21.8 LH hoses straight onto the cylinders and either install the tee as mentioned or Gaslow sell a manual changeover gauge which I have just fitted to a friends van .
https://gasproducts.co.uk/gaslow-twin-regulator-gauge-propane.html

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[hilldweller]

Now all I do is open the valve on the second bottle, no torch required and done in seconds.
Thanks again Andy!!

A bit "iffy". If you ended up in a situation when you could not screw in the Calor you then cannot turn on the Gaslow because gas would come out of the faulty end.

 

[Northernraider]

One final post tam @Northernraider ..i just spoke to gas it... he said they will supply whatever the customer orders but if anyone isnt sure of what they want and phone in they will be advised... needless to say he just confirmed what i thought... he would never recommend the system you have ... ie using one pigtail and changing over connections .. so you may well have bought it as a kit but its not what they would supply to a customer routinely buying a twin refillable system... unless thats all they insisted on...
Hope that helps lol.. now go buy a kayak and a high lift roof rack..
Andy..

As I said Andy I bought the kit via eBay on a buy it now listing that's what arrived with the instructions on how to fit it.
I never spoke to them as there was no need.

But they still have that kit advertised on eBay right now as I looked last night.

The instructions suplied showed to connect it exactly as it is fitted.

There are numerous kits listed by them on ebay all different.

It's advertised as a complete kit ....the instructions state it's a complete kit.

So what they may say going direct to them isn't what they say on their eBay listings

 

[Basildog]

A bit "iffy". If you ended up in a situation when you could not screw in the Calor you then cannot turn on the Gaslow because gas would come out of the faulty end.

Depends on whether the tee has non return valves as it should or a non return valve in the propane pigtail.

 

[hilldweller]

But it isn't necessary it works absolutely fine as it is if it's used properly.

If I was fitting a kit again I'd only have one bottle in there.

No question of that. All I am saying is people do make mistakes and we should allow for this.

We have 1 6kg right now ( stupid Swift locker door ) so I might be going the manual changeover way before our next big trip.

 

[hilldweller]

Depends on whether the tee has non return valves as it should or a non return valve in the propane pigtail.

I stand corrected.

Though someone posted a link to a very slim Tee, I wonder if that had non-return valves ?

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Basildog]

As I said Andy I bought the kit via eBay on a buy it now listing that's what arrived with the instructions on how to fit it.
I never spoke to them as there was no need.

But they still have that kit advertised on eBay right now as I looked last night.

The instructions suplied showed to connect it exactly as it is fitted.

There are numerous kits listed by them on ebay all different.

It's advertised as a complete kit ....the instructions state it's a complete kit.

So what they may say going direct to them isn't what they say on their eBay listings

There are no such things as a complete kit in reality as you well know , they have merely packaged up individual items as kits but it is still down to a competent person installing the components in as safe a way as possible without building in totality unnecessary risks.
Refillable cylinders don’t seem to be covered by any regulatory requirements so silicone Bob and his band of PTFE bandits ( diy experts ) will continue to install.
I have the fill testing equipment and traced and fixed yet another diy leak at a rally this last weekend.

 

[andy63]

I never spoke to them as there was no need

Thats the point ill beg to differ on..i think there was a need to speak with them if youve never done one before..
Phone him.. hes very helpful.
All that said if you want to keep the system you have just remember to explain to the new owners the situiation, so they can do what they feel is right.

Though someone posted a link to a very slim Tee, I wonder if that had non-return valves ?

The t pieces as sold by gas it have non return valves..
Andy

 

[Northernraider]

There are no such things as a complete kit in reality as you well know , they have merely packaged up individual items as kits but it is still down to a competent person installing the components in as safe a way as possible without building in totality unnecessary risks.
Refillable cylinders don’t seem to be covered by any regulatory requirements so silicone Bob and his band of PTFE bandits ( diy experts ) will continue to install.
I have the fill testing equipment and traced and fixed yet another diy leak at a rally this last weekend.

Well I can say with confidence there's no leaks in my system and the spare bottle is always turned off.

There's very few diy tasks I would say I wasn't competent at I've been hands on most of my life.

I appreciate what you've said as a gas engineer. But this was a basic installation and whilst I've all ready agreed that fitting a tee piece and a second hose from the other bottle to it would eliminate any mistakes being made it's still perfectly ok as it is if you close the bottle valves which I do

Had the kit arrived with a t piece and second hose then I'd have fitted that.

There are a lot more kits from them listed these days than they had on eBay last year.
Last year you got a choice of manual changeover and auto changeover and different size bottles.

I bought the manual changeover kit with 2 x 11kg bottles and paid extra for a white filler cap that was it and around £350 total delivered.

I now see that price for 2 6kg bottle kit from them


Anyway the thread is going round in circles
I've had and have zero issues with my system and as I said I'll mention to any potential buyer that they can add these parts if need be.
If it doesn't sell as soon as I'm back and I have it for any length of time on my return then I may well fit the tee piece on it before it's sold.

Unwatching thread now cheers

 

[tonyidle]

I stand corrected.

Though someone posted a link to a very slim Tee, I wonder if that had non-return valves ?

I posted that link as an example of a tee that could be installed in the LOW PRESSURE side if using two bottle regulators. A tee fitted in the high pressure side connected to a single bulkhead regulator would need non-return valves.

 

[scotjimland]

It's advertised as a complete kit ....the instructions state it's a complete kit.

I would never rely on an ebay seller for fitting instructions..

all they are concerned with is selling.. not safety..

an example..

this adapter is not illegal to make, plenty of forums will tell you how to do it, but it is illegal to sell, you won't find it on any caravan dealers accessory shelf. ..

EU Europe Continental Caravan Camping Mains-Hook-Up Polarity Reverse Adapter 16A
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EU-Europ...Up-Polarity-Reverse-Adapter-16A-/251508486659

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Podney]

Phew,phew and more phew!!!!!!
I really admire the patience of some folk on here when a thread goes on and on and on.........and round and round in(ever decreasing) circles!!
I haven’t got Gaslow or Gasit,but now I know a lot more about it than I did before. It may not do me any good though.
Still,didn’t quite get to the popcorn stage this time.

 

[hilldweller]

I really admire the patience of some folk on here when a thread goes on and on and on.......

This is a holy quest to prevent the premature demise of a fellow FUNster. God knows, he tries hard enough, one way or another.

 

[DavidG58]

Well firstly I can’t say enough good about Autogas 2000 near Thirsk, Wendy on the phone for guidance then Jon on site for what money can’t buy a lifetime of knowledge

He looked in locker told me what I needed and said go back to Wendy they are all in stock, then must have noticed my furrowed brow and worried face

Stay there, came back with three fittings pretty much as in Andy photo, a big wrench and fitted them for me

Furrows turned to smiles and I asked what I owed him, trouble is he said these are not new stock so I can’t charge you new prices, see Wendy and put a fiver in the biscuit tin fund that will do

With that Wendy came out to why Jon was still with me and remind him there was a man waiting for gas

He told Wendy I was going to top up the biscuit fund see smiles knowingly and I very gratefully handed over £20

A few interesting tips I also learnt

As said earlier the closing valves before refilling is a total safeguard and full belt and braces but in reality is not needed

Having fitted all of above bits Jon opened both valves, I protested saying we wouldn’t know when we were half empty, he said fill more often but then added a very useful technical tip. If we have one closed and then always use from the same side, every time we refill the pressure will add a tiny amount more to the already full bottle. Eventually causing it to vent due to over pressure. So he is happy that we keep one closed but asked that we swap over every few months

If my Gaslo bottles were newer the ‘leak / escape’ could not have happened there is a check valve that would have detected the escape and closed almost instantly

New bottles to be fitted soon and without any doubt I know who will be fitting them

Many thanks all for input and guidance, a lesson learned by us for sure

Just the fridge and window to sort now oh and we need me gas struts on the drop down bed a few more threads to come shortly

 

[GJH]

Jon on site for what money can’t buy a lifetime of knowledge

Good, isn't he?

Having fitted all of above bits Jon opened both valves, I protested saying we wouldn’t know when we were half empty, he said fill more often but then added a very useful technical tip. If we have one closed and then always use from the same side, every time we refill the pressure will add a tiny amount more to the already full bottle. Eventually causing it to vent due to over pressure. So he is happy that we keep one closed but asked that we swap over every few months

With our (Alugas) system I tend to use one bottle until it is getting near empty then turn the second one on so we don't run out suddenly.
Having refilled I use the bottles the other way round.

 

[Cal54]

cannot

Excuse my ignorance but I don’t really understand your comments. I use the refillable gas-it bottle as my main supply and the ‘exchange’ Calor bottle is back up only - i.e. will only open the valve (having closed the refillable one) if the other bottle runs out. To date I have never had to use the calor bottle.
I’ll ask Andy to explain it to me when I next see him ! Lol

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[hilldweller]

New bottles to be fitted soon and without any doubt I know who will be fitting them

Ah, we can all sleep peacefully at night......................
............................... if parked near you.

 

[hilldweller]

Excuse my ignorance but I don’t really understand your comments.

My comments on the Tee have been shot down provided the correct Tee is fitted ( with non return valves ).

 

[Cal54]

Thanks @hilldweller - I have every confidence in Andy so I’m happy i have a safe system.!!

 

[Basildog]

Well firstly I can’t say enough good about Autogas 2000 near Thirsk, Wendy on the phone for guidance then Jon on site for what money can’t buy a lifetime of knowledge

He looked in locker told me what I needed and said go back to Wendy they are all in stock, then must have noticed my furrowed brow and worried face

Stay there, came back with three fittings pretty much as in Andy photo, a big wrench and fitted them for me

View attachment 254881

Furrows turned to smiles and I asked what I owed him, trouble is he said these are not new stock so I can’t charge you new prices, see Wendy and put a fiver in the biscuit tin fund that will do

With that Wendy came out to why Jon was still with me and remind him there was a man waiting for gas

He told Wendy I was going to top up the biscuit fund see smiles knowingly and I very gratefully handed over £20

A few interesting tips I also learnt

As said earlier the closing valves before refilling is a total safeguard and full belt and braces but in reality is not needed

Having fitted all of above bits Jon opened both valves, I protested saying we wouldn’t know when we were half empty, he said fill more often but then added a very useful technical tip. If we have one closed and then always use from the same side, every time we refill the pressure will add a tiny amount more to the already full bottle. Eventually causing it to vent due to over pressure. So he is happy that we keep one closed but asked that we swap over every few months

If my Gaslo bottles were newer the ‘leak / escape’ could not have happened there is a check valve that would have detected the escape and closed almost instantly

New bottles to be fitted soon and without any doubt I know who will be fitting them

Many thanks all for input and guidance, a lesson learned by us for sure

Just the fridge and window to sort now oh and we need me gas struts on the drop down bed a few more threads to come shortly

It’s got the job done but there is still 3 unnecessary joints in that set up that I would have personally eliminated.

 

[scotjimland]

He looked in locker told me what I needed and said go back to Wendy they are all in stock, then must have noticed my furrowed brow and worried face

I wonder why he left the POL red hand wheel connector and adapter .. that could be removed and the hose connected directly to the bottle , fewer connections mean lower risk of leaks..

He has also used another POL adapter to connect the new black pipe to the bottle

If you compare with the original Gaslow s/s hose you will see what I mean..

otherwise. .. 100% safer

It’s got the job done but there is still 3 unnecessary joints in that set up that I would have personally eliminated.

you pipped me to the post..

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[andy63]

Well firstly I can’t say enough good about Autogas 2000 near Thirsk, Wendy on the phone for guidance then Jon on site for what money can’t buy a lifetime of knowledge

He looked in locker told me what I needed and said go back to Wendy they are all in stock, then must have noticed my furrowed brow and worried face

Stay there, came back with three fittings pretty much as in Andy photo, a big wrench and fitted them for me

View attachment 254881

Furrows turned to smiles and I asked what I owed him, trouble is he said these are not new stock so I can’t charge you new prices, see Wendy and put a fiver in the biscuit tin fund that will do

With that Wendy came out to why Jon was still with me and remind him there was a man waiting for gas

He told Wendy I was going to top up the biscuit fund see smiles knowingly and I very gratefully handed over £20

A few interesting tips I also learnt

As said earlier the closing valves before refilling is a total safeguard and full belt and braces but in reality is not needed

Having fitted all of above bits Jon opened both valves, I protested saying we wouldn’t know when we were half empty, he said fill more often but then added a very useful technical tip. If we have one closed and then always use from the same side, every time we refill the pressure will add a tiny amount more to the already full bottle. Eventually causing it to vent due to over pressure. So he is happy that we keep one closed but asked that we swap over every few months

If my Gaslo bottles were newer the ‘leak / escape’ could not have happened there is a check valve that would have detected the escape and closed almost instantly

New bottles to be fitted soon and without any doubt I know who will be fitting them

Many thanks all for input and guidance, a lesson learned by us for sure

Just the fridge and window to sort now oh and we need me gas struts on the drop down bed a few more threads to come shortly

Pleased youer sorted and a happy bunny david..
Im still a little curious as to how bev managed to disconnect an empty cylinder with the valve open... the pressure i thought would have made the connection very tight.... but that may remain a mystery..
Cant wait for your other threads if they run like this one..
Take care..
Andy.

 

[hilldweller]

It’s got the job done but there is still 3 unnecessary joints in that set up that I would have personally eliminated.

Go, I'd like to know. Suspect on the low pressure T plumbing.

Having seen this, there really is no need for a changeover valve when used with a Tee, as long as you get the right sequence on the shut off valves and if you don't, well tough, you run out but safely.

 

[andy63]

Thanks @hilldweller - I have every confidence in Andy so I’m happy i have a safe system.!!

I hope so to carol...
if i remember rightly you left here without that part and fitted it yourself..
Andy

 

[Cal54]

Oops - @andy63 - you are quite correct! Must get you to check my handy work next time I see you - lol

 

[ivorantony]

Why aren’t both of your bottles permanently connected to the regulator and you just turn off the empty one and turn on the full one?
This sounds like an accident waiting to happen, having to disconnect pipes.

Exactly as mine is fitted so no chance of having an open valve venting to atmosphere,
Get it modified soonest for everyone sake,

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}