LPG near disaster refilling

[DavidG58]

with hind sight this was totally avoidable and nobody was harmed in the making of this thread

I post in the hope that it might save someone else making an even bigger hash of things

We ran out of gas overnight as ever, Bev wanted an early coffee and although I said I would get up she insisted on doing the swap, all good and kettle on

Now Bev did make one comment that didn’t really make sense regarding the swap, but it now makes very obvious sense and how I could avoided the next bit

Our refillable system could not be easier, refill does both cylinders at once, the cylinders are effectively the same as having 2 x calor bottles and to change over we remove regulator and hose from one and reattach to the other

That involves closing the valve on the cylinder in use, then turn the hand wheel on the hose the opposite way to what you expect (gas threads and all that) swap over and open new cylinder

Now I know that the key words told to me were I only had to turn the valve a tiny bit to close the one in use (just run out)

Stopped at garage with LPG connected hose and immediately heard a loud hiss of gas / air, before I even pressed the button to start

Thought it was odd but all pumps have their quirks and I carried on filling, Bev leans out of window and says it sounds really loud inside

I stop filling at about 20 litres about what it might have taken but before it cut out

The noise didn’t stop, opened locker door and gas was pouring out if the ‘open valve’ of the cylinder that was not connected

Top of cylinder and outlet thick with ice, I burnt my hand trying to close the valve which was not playing, luckily I thought quick enough to close the other cylinder and move the regulator across to the open valve, immediately stopping the leak

Interestingly the cylinder has actually filled quite a lot even with a wide open valve, due to the rapid release it was iced up to about 2/3rds which I think pretty much shows the fill level

I will definitely pay more attention to odd noises when refilling and really wish I had checked the valve based on what Bev had said

I have also learnt that the fittings might have opposite threads but this doesn’t apply to the valve handle, I do it instinctively but if asked I would have said they turn opposite to what you expect

For all the noise there wasn’t a lot of smell, no cloud of vapour or any obvious sign of the leak and luckily no harm done

 

[Jimbohorlicks]

Hi David, sorry to hear of your gas issue after your fridge problems. What refillable system due you have. It's seems to be odd. I have a gas low and when one bottle is Mt we just turn that off and open the other and look out to refill. But the fill does both bottles, we don't have to unscrew hoses or regulators?

 

[Northernraider]

Lucky escape

 

[DavidG58]

Hi David, sorry to hear of your gas issue after your fridge problems. What refillable system due you have. It's seems to be odd. I have a gas low and when one bottle is Mt we just turn that off and open the other and look out to refill. But the fill does both bottles, we don't have to unscrew hoses or regulators?

I will take a photo tomorrow

They are yellow bottles

But effectively on the output side are exactly the same as we had with the Calor bottles

 

[Burgo]

I don't know much about gas installations, but it seems incredible that a properly installed refillable system could do that without having had a catastrophic component failure. Lucky you didn't blow yourselves and anyone in the vicinity to kingdom come!

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[jollyrodger]

Can you not get a T piece and another short pipe David that way you will never have an "open" system open just the one to use ?
Glad it was not a more serious incident

Would need a bulkhead regulator though

 

[Hettie's Crew]

Why aren’t both of your bottles permanently connected to the regulator and you just turn off the empty one and turn on the full one?
This sounds like an accident waiting to happen, having to disconnect pipes.

 

[Jimbohorlicks]

I will take a photo tomorrow

They are yellow bottles

But effectively on the output side are exactly the same as we had with the Calor bottles

Gaslow bottles are yellow also but they are purpose made for refilling. Would be interesting to see a photo of your set up.

 

[Northernraider]

I don't know much about gas installations, but it seems incredible that a properly installed refillable system could do that without having had a catastrophic component failure. Lucky you didn't blow yourselves and anyone in the vicinity to kingdom come!

It's quite simple really his wife just didn't close the valve on the empty bottle.

By the sounds of things he has the same set up as I have only mine are gas it bottles.

They have one hose that fills both bottles but instead of an auto changeover where you've no idea of how much gas you've used he has the manual change over which involves changing the hose to the regulator from one bottle to the other ....same as mine and it works fine
But if one bottle runs completely empty and you don't close the bottle once you remove the hose .....then when you refill the bottle the gas will obviously come out the open valve

It's an easy mistake to make If your not the one who normally does that task.

 

[DavidG58]

Can you not get a T piece and another short pipe David that way you will never have an "open" system open just the one to use ?
Glad it was not a more serious incident

That sounds very sensible and fairly easy, (even for me) I will review options when home tomorrow

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[funflair]

Accident waiting to happen IMHO, anybody with this et up would be well advised to get a proper change over system and do away with any open ends.

Glad it was no worse than a scare and a little cold burn.

Martin

 

[andy63]

hi David.. that could have turned out a lot worse...
think ive understood and if I have you would benefit from fitting a t piece that allows both cylinders to be connected to the regulator..
something like this
https://www.gasit.co.uk/w20-t-adapter-mxmxf-with-non-return-valves.html
easy to fit..
Andy

 

[G7UXG]

Lucky escape.

The later Gasit Plus bottles and (I think) the Gaslow R67 bottles have an excess flow valve built in. Even if a valve is left open, this should arrest the flow of gas... designed to cut off the gas supply from the bottle if a high pressure hose ruptures (e.g. in a crash).

I've not tested it on my own Gasit Plus bottles but it sounds like a useful safety feature.

 

[DavidG58]

hi David.. that could have turned out a lot worse...
think ive understood and if I have you would benefit from fitting a t piece that allows both cylinders to be connected to the regulator..
something like this
https://www.gasit.co.uk/w20-t-adapter-mxmxf-with-non-return-valves.html
easy to fit..
Andy

That and a couple of hoses should do it Andy, thanks

We are coming down the A1 tomorrow, isn’t one of the suppliers of these around Thirsk I might try calling to see if they can sort it for me on the way past

 

[andy63]

which involves changing the hose to the regulator from one bottle to the other ....same as mine and it works fine

it might work but its an unnecessary risk for the sake of fitting a t piece ... would be worth it for the sake of a few pounds.. ive linked to a suitable part in the message to David .... have a look tam..
Andy
Andy

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[Northernraider]

Accident waiting to happen IMHO, anybody with this et up would be well advised to get a proper change over system and do away with any open ends.

Glad it was no worse than a scare and a little cold burn.

Martin

I prefer the system I and David have

It's no different from having a spare calor bottle. Which most people without a refillable system carry ...you just need to make sure the bottle is closed obviously. And as I'm the only one who touches mine it's the first thing I do before removing the pig tail

But you always know how much gas you have. When a bottle empties change hose and refill empty bottle.
Never run out

 

[andy63]

That and a couple of hoses should do it Andy, thanks

We are coming down the A1 tomorrow, isn’t one of the suppliers of these around Thirsk I might try calling to see if they can sort it for me on the way past

autos 2000 at thirsk David, or just order online , ordered and fitted one for debs and carol when they called...the bits arrived the next day..
Andy

 

[DavidG58]

I prefer the system I and David have

It's no.different from having a spare calpe bottle...you just need to.make sure the bottle is closed.

But you always know how much gas you have. When a bottle empties change hose and refill empty bottle.
Never run out

I agree that our systems help us to avoid running out, my incident was avoidable and with hindsight very silly of me not to stop and investigate but I think the suggestion to join these together would still give us the same advantage in that the valves would still need to be opened when needed

Although if the empty one isn’t then closed I am then not sure if the regulator would cope with oressure from both cylinders when refilled

 

[DavidG58]

autos 2000 at thirsk David, or just order online , ordered and fitted one for debs and carol when they called...the bits arrived the next day..
Andy

Thanks Andy I think I will give them a call make sure I order the right hoses

Should they not be fixed to something though

 

[funflair]

I prefer the system I and David have

It's no different from having a spare calor bottle. Which most people without a refillable system carry ...you just need to make sure the bottle is closed obviously. And as I'm the only one who touches mine it's the first thing I do before removing the pig tail

But you always know how much gas you have. When a bottle empties change hose and refill empty bottle.
Never run out

To be fair it is completely different to having a spare bottle as the spare would not have a fill point directly connected to it, T them together and leave one turned off if you like and then you will still know when one bottle has run out, the only difference then is it will be much safer, hopefully you make yours safe before selling your van.

Martin

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[andy63]

But you always know how much gas you have. When a bottle empties change hose and refill empty bottle.
Never run out

tam, you always know how much gas you have with the t piece in the system... one cylinder runs out and you open the valve to the second... the difference is you never have an open end.. the t piece has built in non return valves as well..
Andy

 

[daveandsan]

It's quite simple really his wife just didn't close the valve on the empty bottle.

By the sounds of things he has the same set up as I have only mine are gas it bottles.

They have one hose that fills both bottles but instead of an auto changeover where you've no idea of how much gas you've used he has the manual change over which involves changing the hose to the regulator from one bottle to the other ....same as mine and it works fine
But if one bottle runs completely empty and you don't close the bottle once you remove the hose .....then when you refill the bottle the gas will obviously come out the open valve

It's an easy mistake to make If your not the one who normally does that task.

I’m with @Jimbohorlicks on this one, that sounds like a funny setup to me, accident waiting to happen if you are unfamiliar with the setup.
On my setup you just close the empty bottle and open the full one, job done.

 

[Northernraider]

I agree that our systems help us to avoid running out, my incident was avoidable and with hindsight very silly of me not to stop and investigate but I think the suggestion to join these together would still give us the same advantage in that the valves would still need to be opened when needed

Although if the empty one isn’t then closed I am then not sure if the regulator would cope with oressure from both cylinders when refilled

Or you could fit an auto change over hose to it if you feel it's a risk. Although I doubt you'll make that mistake again.

I treat mine like calor bottles close valve then remove pig tail.

To be fair it is completely different to having a spare bottle as the spare would not have a fill point directly connected to it, T them together and leave one turned off if you like and then you will still know when one bottle has run out, the only difference then is it will be much safer, hopefully you make yours safe before selling your van.

Martin

Mine is perfectly safe like the hundreds of kits sold by gas it and gaslow.

You can't blame operator error on the design of the system....its worked fine till now only this occasion his wife wasn't sure what she was doing.

It's second nature to me to turn of a gas bottle before I remove the hose regardless of which gas bottle it is so it will never be open when I refill it so theres no risk and its perfectly safe....anyone buying the van should know to close a valve before removing a hose.

I wont be altering mine as i like it how it is
There's enough hoses in there as it is without me adding more.
I deliberatly didn't buy an auto changing system because I can monitor my gas useage easier.

Had he had that connected together and left open I suspect the regulator would have been damaged by the pressure of filling and both bottles being open feeding the regulator.

 

[Northernraider]

I’m with @Jimbohorlicks on this one, that sounds like a funny setup to me, accident waiting to happen if you are unfamiliar with the setup.
On my setup you just close the empty bottle and open the full one, job done.

It isn't a funny setup it's how it's designed.

Operator error is not the fault of the design

That's how we have ridiculous h&s in the UK

Begore disconnecting any gas bottle close the valve ....years of welding and forklift driving taught me that.

 

[daveandsan]

It isn't a funny setup it's how it's designed.

Operator error is not the fault of the design

That's how we have ridiculous h&s in the UK

Begore disconnecting any gas bottle close the valve ....years of welding and forklift driving taught me that.

Funny that, years of working taught me to try to make everything idiot proof, not that I’m saying @DavidG58 is an idiot.
Simple law, if it’s possible for something to go wrong, it will.
We can’t all be perfect.

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[Taran_Las]

I thought it was common practice to close all valves prior to filling thereby removing the filler pump pressure from the regulator.



ps - my previous van had the same setup as Northernraider & Davids. But as you all know (or should do by now) I am perfect

 

[funflair]

It isn't a funny setup it's how it's designed.

Operator error is not the fault of the design

That's how we have ridiculous h&s in the UK

Begore disconnecting any gas bottle close the valve ....years of welding and forklift driving taught me that.

Gaslow twin cylinder system gives a choice of manual or automatic change over, that is how it is designed, I can't see anybody designing the system as you suggest and relying on everybody having your mechanical knowledge and skill, always design for the lowest common denominator.

Manual changeover would work just the same as yours except safer.

Martin

EDIT forgot to add, Link Removed

 

[DavidG58]

I thought it was common practice to close all valves prior to filling thereby removing the filler pump pressure from the regulator.



ps - my previous van had the same setup as Northernraider & Davids. But as you all know I am perfect

That’s a very good point, I did know I should but have never done so

Would have avoided the problem twice over

The valve would be closed but the kiosk would also have cut the gas off as I had the locker open

 

[Northernraider]

I thought it was common practice to close all valves prior to filling thereby removing the filler pump pressure from the regulator.



ps - my previous van had the same setup as Northernraider & Davids. But as you all know I am perfect

As do hundreds if not thousands.

I don't want to appear sexist but i suspect it was simply a case of not knowing what she was doing.

 

[funflair]

As do hundreds if not thousands.

I don't want to appear sexist but i suspect it was simply a case of not knowing what she was doing.

That's why you design safety into a system not out.

Martin

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