Lithium Battery + EBL Advice Please

[Blue Knight]

Hi guys,

There's a lady on the UK Globecar & Possl FB Forum who has just lost her husband and needs some help with her PVC please - which she wishes to keep and solo tour In.

In a nutshell she had a Varta LA95 AGM fitted and it has been swapped out by her local auto electrician for a Lithium Relion RB100D 12v 100Ah.

Her van has a Schaudt Elektroblock EBL119 fitted but no other leccy gear from what I understand.

She's hooked it up to the mains and it doesn't charge.

Now I don't know the fully extent of the story and whether or not they requested the new battery to be fitted (or if the auto electrician recommended it himself) but I was rightly or wrongly under the impression that you couldn't just drop a Lithium unit alongside an EBL119 without mods.

Any help would be much appreciated. I'm travelling soon but I'll pick up your messages as soon as possible as the poor girl is in a bit of a tizz.

Thanks in advance,

Andrew

 

[eddie]

Sorry, but third hand help is virtually impossible.

Why not suggest that she joins here? Our Lithium guru nickvanbitz helps out lots of members

Or suggests that she gets the Lithium battery removed and sticks with lead acid which it appears is all her system can cope with.

We (Van Bitz) keep answering questions on here to the effect “Can I drop Lithium in as a direct replacement” only to get into a spat with people saying “I was told you can!”

The on road and main charging equipment must be compatible, as must the regulator if solar is fitted to accommodate Lithium batteries

 

[Theonlysue]

Instructions for ebl119 only seem to have the option of gel or agm.

 

[Pausim]

I would expect there to be some charging even though it might not do the Li job fully. It sounds like she is getting no charge at all. If so perhaps the charger has packed up altogether but it might be worth checking the 20A charging fuse on the EBL, I think it is marked Ladegerät.

 

[NickandClair]

Instructions for ebl119 only seem to have the option of gel or agm.

Depends on the Lithium manufacturer you choose, but with the 2 brands we offer here, the mains charger aspect is fine on the Gel Settings if you are fitting just 1x battery (bearing in mind that for low 12v power users only/no inverter use, 1x 100-120ah of usable power is plenty).

The only thing that needs changing is the engine-to-leisure charging aspect of your set-up, unless you are already blessed with a DC-DC/B2B charger fitted at the factory like Most Hymer MLT/MLi motorhomes. There are more vans coming through the woodwork that already have DC-DC/B2B chargers fitted that require Regen Braking Friendly (R.B.F) systems, such as all Mercedes based Hymer, VW T6 based vans.
We would always advise on making sure you are using an MPPT regulator from solar too.

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[jezport]

Some lithiums have built in charge management to allow standard charging. I have not looked into it though.

 

[Pausim]

Relion also say that a Gel setting will be ok. See picure.

Some lithiums have built in charge management to allow standard charging. I have not looked into it though.

The BMS (Battery Management System) on the Relion protects it from over voltage charging and under voltage discharge but the charging voltage and amps is down to the charger. All the BMS seems to do is shut down the battery until a problem has been resolved.

 

[eddie]

Some lithiums have built in charge management to allow standard charging. I have not looked into it though.

No they don't, or if they do, we have yet to see one

 

[eddie]

Relion also say that a Gel setting will be ok. See picure.
View attachment 362293

The BMS (Battery Management System) on the Relion protects it from over voltage charging and under voltage discharge but the charging voltage and amps is down to the charger. All the BMS seems to do is shut down the battery until a problem has been resolved.

That link states that they recommend that the charger is changed to a charger with a Lithium profile

 

[Pausim]

That link states that they recommend that the charger is changed to a charger with a Lithium profile

Yes it does suggest that if the BMS is cutting in or the charger is displaying error codes an Li profile charger is needed. No doubt best practice indicates a proper LiFePO4 profile is always used.

At present I am using the Gel charger which came with my Carthago and so far it is doing OK but probably not giving a full charge. I do not worry too much about a full charge when I am on an EHU and have a B2B that makes sure it gets a full charge when I am not. I have a good Stirling mains charger with Li profiles which I am holding off installing in place of the CBE one until the Carthago warranty has run its course.

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[eddie]

Yes it does suggest that if the BMS is cutting in or the charger is displaying error codes an Li profile charger is needed. No doubt best practice indicates a proper LiFePO4 profile is always used.

At present I am using the Gel charger which came with my Carthago and so far it is doing OK but probably not giving a full charge. I do not worry too much about a full charge when I am on an EHU and have a B2B that makes sure it gets a full charge when I am not. I have a good Stirling mains charger with Li profiles which I am holding off installing in place of the CBE one until the Carthago warranty has run its course.

You have an excellent understanding of what your doing, the OP is asking about a woman who has been sold a "pup" to all intents and purposes as it simply won't work.

We stock Lithium batteries by Dometic, Victron and Sterling and have most of the Lithium manufacturers/importers asking us to buy and sell their products. Too many have "hinted" that theirs is a "drop in" replacement only to admit when questioned that it is only truly "drop in" when the correct equipment is already in place.

Just because it is "drop in" on one conversion doesn't mean it is "drop in " on "any" motorhome and this is where people are being tucked up.

We had a MHF member in before Christmas, bought a "drop in" from the internet, gone to a business that advertises on Fun and had it fitted. Nothing worked properly and ended up with us to have it sorted

Its just unfair to flog people Lithium and leave them up the creek !

 

[nabsim]

If the EBL doesn’t have at least a gel setting she needs to get a different charger and disconnect charge from EBL for the Relion.
She should really get her money back and get a lead acid battery fitted though by the sounds of it and get her charger checked out.

 

[Pausim]

Its just unfair to flog people Lithium and leave them up the creek !

I agree.

 

[andy63]

I have a good Stirling mains charger with Li profiles which I am holding off installing in place of the CBE one until the Carthago warranty has run its course.

I was wondering about swapping out the cbe mains charger for a dedicated lithium charger..
The cbe charger has a sense signal to the cbe power supply unit.. And I believe that controls the switching of a couple relays on the board..
Do you know if its possible to keep that signal somehow if you change chargers...
Andy

 

[andy63]

I was wondering about swapping out the cbe mains charger for a dedicated lithium charger..
The cbe charger has a sense signal to the cbe power supply unit.. And I believe that controls the switching of a couple relays on the board..
Do you know if its possible to keep that signal somehow if you change chargers...
Andy

That question I asked is open to anyone that has a suggestion..even though it was pausim I quoted ????
I will be looking into what the signal wire does but information seems hard come by so just thought I'd ask..
Not trying to hijack your thread either blue knight.. Its just the point came up in the thread..
Andy

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[Pausim]

I was wondering about swapping out the cbe mains charger for a dedicated lithium charger..
The cbe charger has a sense signal to the cbe power supply unit.. And I believe that controls the switching of a couple relays on the board..
Do you know if its possible to keep that signal somehow if you change chargers...
Andy

Not given that signal wire function any thought until now and the manual seems to be silent on it. My motorhome is in storage without access to ehu so I am not in a position to investigate. My first instinct is to pull the signal wire connector off and check what voltage the signal is and then to check what functions have stopped working.

 

[Blue Knight]

Team,

Very many thanks to you alll for your efforts and advice.

I think I got the gist of things by post #2 with Eddie's answer but all of the other info just made things really clear and precise.

There is no denying that the poor lady in question has been sold a pup so I'll send her a note with your pointers.

Regards to all,

Andrew

 

[Blue Knight]

Relion also say that a Gel setting will be ok. See picure.
View attachment 362293

The BMS (Battery Management System) on the Relion protects it from over voltage charging and under voltage discharge but the charging voltage and amps is down to the charger. All the BMS seems to do is shut down the battery until a problem has been resolved.

Thank you for that

I've just read your attachment via the iPad (as it was difficult to read on my phone) and I realise now that it talks about AGM and Gel profiles being OK for this particular battery brand as they fall within acceptable voltage limits.

If this were the case then surely there must be some level of charge going to the battery (unless there was a fuse blown in the system).

Many thanks,

Andrew

 

[TheDogMan]

Some lithiums have built in charge management to allow standard charging. I have not looked into it though.

Mine have built in charge management, they just removed the 6 year old batteries and replaced them with Lithium ones

 

[eddie]

Thank you for that

I've just read your attachment via the iPad (as it was difficult to read on my phone) and I realise now that it talks about AGM and Gel profiles being OK for this particular battery brand as they fall within acceptable voltage limits.

If this were the case then surely there must be some level of charge going to the battery (unless there was a fuse blown in the system).

Many thanks,

Andrew

No it doesn't it is carefully worded uses words like "some" and the voltage ranges "may" and then goes onto say that if not best practice is to change the charger, and suggests that "Error" messages may be an issue

Many built in battery management systems BMS require the battery to be disconnected to reset the BMS

Ideal for a newly widowed lady trying to use her van!

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[andy63]

My first instinct is to pull the signal wire connector off and check what voltage the signal is and then to check what functions have stopped working.

I did check it but needless to say I've forgotten??
I think it supplies a signal at a reduced voltage and limited current but i m not sure what it does.. On mine its a white wire that is part of the same connector block that supplies the PSU from the charger..
Andy

 

[Pausim]

I did check it but needless to say I've forgotten??
I think it supplies a signal at a reduced voltage and limited current but i m not sure what it does.. On mine its a white wire that is part of the same connector block that supplies the PSU from the charger..
Andy

If it is a 5V signal it should be possible to emulate it with a cannibalised mains device such as a usb plug, connected to the new chargers output.

 

[Blue Knight]

No it doesn't it is carefully worded uses words like "some" and the voltage ranges "may" and then goes onto say that if not best practice is to change the charger, and suggests that "Error" messages may be an issue

Many built in battery management systems BMS require the battery to be disconnected to reset the BMS

Ideal for a newly widowed lady trying to use her van!

Thanks Eddie. They are a dodgy bunch of wotsits with the wording eh.