Gel Battery Charging Question.

[PhilandMena]

A question for you experts (popcorn at the ready)
The Excide Gel ES900 Leisure battery, according to Alpha Batteries has the following charging characteristics.

Ideal Charge Voltage	14.1v - 14.4v
Top Up Charge Voltage	13.3v-13.8v

According to them, these are made for the European marketplace hence this charging profile. Also, if like me you have a Sargent System and Solar Panel set up for charging Lead Acid batteries there will be no need to make any changes to the charging settings as they will be suited to these batteries as the batteries themselves will determine what charge they need and its within the parameters of the charging profile used for Lead Acid batteries.

I'm not sure what the term 'Ideal Charge Voltage' actually means but i do know my regulator and on board charger can charge at this voltage and at 13.7 V to maintain my Lead Acid batteries.

I'm not looking to change my batteries for a number of years yet but this could make switching from L.A. to Gel a doddle.

Over to you. Or Roger, Roger.

 

[autorouter]

There's very little data available that I can find. For example there are no voltages mentioned in the data sheet. So you can interpret these voltages however you want.

My take is, they are the voltages that you would set if you had a non-smart charger where you could manually set voltages. To charge a flat battery you would first set to 14.1 - 14-4V, and wait until you thought it might be fully charged. Difficult to say when that was, you could watch the amps reducing and judge from that. Then once it's charged, set to 13.3 - 13.8V to keep the battery topped up - what is usually called the float voltage.

I think the 'ideal charge voltage' could be used to set the absorption voltage parameter of a smart charger.

The 'top-up charge voltage' range is quite wide, so the float voltage is a bit more problematic, and you would have to adjust the value to keep it topped up but avoid overcharge. Easy to say but hard to judge. I'd be looking at adjusting it until the amps going in was very small, a few mA maybe. On a motorhome you also have to supply the constant background drain from various devices like an alarm, tracker, frost protection valve etc.

But I'm not sure much thought has gone into these voltage values. There's no mention of the extended time at the absorption voltage that I thought gel batteries benefitted from. This is supposed to be a feature of recombinant batteries like gel and AGM.

 

[PhilandMena]

Thanks for that! I always thought Gel and Lead Acid charging settings were different. When I look at the charging profile of my Solar Regulator it is significantly different between the Lead Acid and Gel settings and I now see a newish term of Lead Acid Gel being used by some distributors and battery manufactures. Martin from AandNcaravans gave me me a technical response about the different characteristics occurring within each type of battery was being charged and I had to ask him again if I could just do a straight swap. He asked me for details of my Sargent charger (PX-300) which he rated as being a good charger and said I would be OK just doing a straight swap as long as I did not leave the charger switched on permanently. I have done some more reading on Gel Lead Acid batteries and its become quite technical as the gel paste has an effect of battery temperature amongst other features and does not like a fast charge beyond a certain point and no voltage above 14.7. Well my Sargent charger and regulator meets this criteria when set for Lead Acid. In addition a have a C-Tek charger that I use once or twice a year to ensure my lead acid gets a proper equalisation charge and my thoughts are that if I ever change by existing Lead Acid batteries (Years away I hope). I will swap out to these Gel batteries, I can leave my charging set up as is and when ever I'm hooked up bring My C-Tek charger in to play and all should be well, I hope. I have emailed Exide and asked their technical department for the correct charging settings to maintain there battery and I'm waiting for a response. I still find it odd that these are more or less charged in the same way a Lead Acid battery is charged.

 

[Richard n Ann]

A question for you experts (popcorn at the ready)
The Excide Gel ES900 Leisure battery, according to Alpha Batteries has the following charging characteristics.

Ideal Charge Voltage	14.1v - 14.4v
Top Up Charge Voltage	13.3v-13.8v

According to them, these are made for the European marketplace hence this charging profile. Also, if like me you have a Sargent System and Solar Panel set up for charging Lead Acid batteries there will be no need to make any changes to the charging settings as they will be suited to these batteries as the batteries themselves will determine what charge they need and its within the parameters of the charging profile used for Lead Acid batteries.

I'm not sure what the term 'Ideal Charge Voltage' actually means but i do know my regulator and on board charger can charge at this voltage and at 13.7 V to maintain my Lead Acid batteries.

I'm not looking to change my batteries for a number of years yet but this could make switching from L.A. to Gel a doddle.

Over to you. Or Roger, Roger.

I changed to a gel battery last year. I bought a different charger that has a specific gel setting. The voltages are the same but in order for a gel battery to receive a full charge it needs holding at 14.4v for longer. Maybe a couple of hours or so, Lenny HB knows more about it.

It's not absolutely necessary though, and some chargers just lump gels in with the standard wets. My optimate 2 says for all types, but I just use that for maintenance after the battery is charged.

 

[Lenny HB]

On a flooded cell setting a Gel will only charge to 80% to fully charge it needs an absorption phase of several hours that is the voltage held at 14.2 to 14.4v with limited current of around 1A. 4hours minimum, current Elektroblock's the the absorption phase 16 hours, on older ones it was 8 hours.

Float charge for a Gel is normally 13.8v.

Flooded Cell, Gel & AGM are all lead acid batteries.

No Phil your Sargent charger is not suitable for Gel. Although under charging g a Gel will not kill it like it does an AGM there is not much point in wasting 20% of the batteries capacity.

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[BusyBuilder]

I have those batteries, I just swapped my old Banner AGM for them, switched the setting on my Electroblock to AGM. My Schaudt LRM1218 seems to charge them okay. I must say they are brilliant batteries if a bit expensive.

 

[funflair]

On our Flair the CBE charger had Pb setting and a Gel setting, must be a reason

Anyway in a couple of years you will be fitting LiFePO4 Phil.

Martin

 

[PhilandMena]

On a flooded cell setting a Gel will only charge to 80% to fully charge it needs an absorption phase of several hours that is the voltage held at 14.2 to 14.4v with limited current of around 1A. 4hours minimum, current Elektroblock'the the absorption phase 16 hours, on older ones it was 8 hours.

Float charge for a Gel is normally 13.8v.

Flooded Cell, Gel & AGM are all lead acid batteries.

No Phil your Sargent charger is not suitable for Gel. Although under charing a Gel will not kill it like it does an AGM there is not much point in wasting 20% of the batteries capacity.

Thanks for this. Is it not the case that the battery tells the charger what it needs, hence the 14.4 v for x amount of hours, rather than the charger giving 14.4 V for a set period and then reverting to a float charge. The charger must be receiving some form of data from the battery based on what is happening to the battery during the charging process and know when to switch to a float charge ???
Not really a big issue for the Sargent charger as when I am on hook up I can switch off and charge with my C- Tek. Also, the reason to swap to Gels would be to spend more time wilding and it would be my solar set up which would come to the fore in this situation and I would change my regulator settings from L.A. to Gel. The difference being the L.A. setting has a boost charge up to 14.6V and an equalisation charge which is not available for the Gel Setting. I have a few years to go yet with my existing batteries so no hurry to change yet. Thanks for your input. Keep Safe.

 

[Lenny HB]

The charger can't tell what type the battery is. The charger changes to the absorption phase when the battery reaches the set voltage e.g. 14. 4v, the absorption phase is timed by the charger. On the older EBL's its 8 hours new ones 16 hours, Votronic solar regulator 4 hours, Victron 4 hours default but can be programed for longer times.

 

[PhilandMena]

The charger can't tell what type the battery is. The charger changes to the absorption phase when the battery reaches the set voltage e.g. 14. 4v, the absorption phase is timed by the charger. On the older EBL's its 8 hours new ones 16 hours, Votronic solar regulator 4 hours, Victron 4 hours default but can be programed for longer times.

That's wrong Lenny. Modern chargers can tell the type of battery they are connected too. ! Go stand in the corner of the room with a big cone with a capital D on it.

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[PhilandMena]

That's wrong Lenny. Modern chargers can tell the type of battery they are connected too. ! Go stand in the corner of the room with a big cone with a capital D on it.

I might be wrong ! Off to the naughty step !

 

[Richard n Ann]

I'm with Lenny on this one. The charging profiles are preset in the charger and the user selects the appropriate profile with DIP switches or whatever

 

[PhilandMena]

I'm with Lenny on this one. The charging profiles are preset in the charger and the user selects the appropriate profile with DIP switches or whatever

The C-Tec charger charges both Lead Acid (Flooded) and Lead Acid (Gel) without the user having to change any of the settings or charging profile. So, it must know which battery its charging I would think.

 

[Richard n Ann]

The C-Tec charger charges both Lead Acid (Flooded) and Lead Acid (Gel) without the user having to change any of the settings or charging profile. So, it must know which battery its charging I would think.

Yes it charges flooded and gel without the user having to change any settings, just like my optimate one does. But it doesn't do it very well, or indeed up to 100%.
For any charger to 'know' what it's connected to, it would need a microprocessor on each end of the charging lead and a data cable linking them. A bit like the QC3 USB charging leads

 

[PhilandMena]

Yes it charges flooded and gel without the user having to change any settings, just like my optimate one does. But it doesn't do it very well, or indeed up to 100%.

Thanks for this. Can you point me to your source about the C-Tec not fully charging Gels.
Thanks in advance.

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[Lenny HB]

That's wrong Lenny. Modern chargers can tell the type of battery they are connected too. ! Go stand in the corner of the room with a big cone with a capital D on it.

Believe what you want Phil, I wouldn't trust one that said it could. How would it do it, possible by measuring internal battery resistance but that would vary with the condition of the battery.

 

[PhilandMena]

Believe what you want Phil, I wouldn't trust one that said it could. How would it do it, possible by measuring internal battery resistance but that would vary with the condition of the battery.

I don't know Lenny that's why I'm asking the questions. I could well be wrong and you could well be right ! although I find it odd a leading battery charger manufacturer can claim their charger is suitable for many different types of batteries. Richard and Ann claim this charger will not fully charge a Gel battery either. So, I have emailed the technical people at C-Tec and asked them to respond to your questions and will post reply here if ever I get one. You can tell were in Lock-down eh !!!! Keep Safe.

 

[Lenny HB]

A lot of chargers claim to be able to charge Gel batteries, but they are just looking at the charging voltages and do not take into account the long absorption time a Gel needs to get it to a fully charged state.

 

[Richard n Ann]

Why would some manufacturers put in a specific gel charging profile in if it wasn't necessary?

I think c-tec will tell you their chargers will charge gels ok, they've got to really haven't they, it says it on the box.

 

[Richard n Ann]

Been Googling and reading about it and a few companies say this...

Do I need a special battery charger to charge my gel car battery?

Answer (1 of 4): Yes generally AGM and Gel same charge ratio and typically the volt should be between 13.8 vdc to 14.8 vdc with current limiter equal to the decimal ratio of your battery. 1. The first step is bulk charging, where up to 80% of the battery energy capacity is replaced by the charge...

www.quora.com

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[Richard n Ann]

This one says gels should be held at 14.4v for hours "no longer than 10 to 12 hours"

 

[StephDeLux]

I think c-tec will tell you their chargers will charge gels ok, they've got to really haven't they, it says it on the box.

My experience with Ctek is getting a big fat lie from their tech support.

In 2017 I bought a Ctek a D250S, a very nice device that make it dead simple to add a service battery to any vehicle and to allow ots charging with either a solar panel or the alternator or both.

In my ignorance I bought an AGM service batttery.

A year later, Ctek replaces the D250S with the D250SA which adds a specific AGM charging program.

I send the following question to Ctek support:

"I see that the new D250SA has a specific AGM 14.7V charging tension. I have a D250S for about a year now, and an AGM service battery. I bought the D250S trusting that is was good for AGM batteries, as specified in the owner manual. However it only has a 14.4V charging tension. Could that be the reason why my service battery does not seem to ever be fully charged?"​

Here is the answer:

"The short answer is no. If you have used higher voltage, for example 14.7V it have take liter shorter time to reach same charger level."​

Needless to say I ended up unable to ever fully charge the AGM battery and it died 6 months after that email.

 

[PhilandMena]

Been Googling and reading about it and a few companies say this...

Do I need a special battery charger to charge my gel car battery?

Answer (1 of 4): Yes generally AGM and Gel same charge ratio and typically the volt should be between 13.8 vdc to 14.8 vdc with current limiter equal to the decimal ratio of your battery. 1. The first step is bulk charging, where up to 80% of the battery energy capacity is replaced by the charge...

www.quora.com

Opening that link , started with a response that said 'Yes generally AGM and Gel same charge ratio and typically the volt should be between 13.8 vdc to 14.8'
My understanding is 14.8V is far to high to charge a Gel battery. (The Excide ES900 is 14.1-14.4. This just goes to show its a complete and utter minefield out there.

 

[Lenny HB]

Opening that link , started with a response that said 'Yes generally AGM and Gel same charge ratio and typically the volt should be between 13.8 vdc to 14.8'
My understanding is 14.8V is far to high to charge a Gel battery. (The Excide ES900 is 14.1-14.4. This just goes to show its a complete and utter minefield out there.

Also there are Type 1 & Type 2 AGM, one charges at 14.4v the other at at 14.7v

 

[PhilandMena]

View attachment 398319

This one says gels should be held at 14.4v for hours "no longer than 10 to 12 hours"

Is this from a particular battery charger manufacturer or a technical document ? I too have read that a Gel battery may have to be held at 14.4 V for a longer period than a Lead Acid battery in order to ensure it is fully charged and I think this is well understood within the Battery charging industry.

Below is an appraisal of the C-Tec battery charger and I do find it odd that if there charger cannot correctly maintain a Gel battery how do they get this world wide reputation? As I have said previously in this thread, I'm not looking to change to Gel until my existing L.A. batteries expire and I'm expecting to get another 3 plus years out of them yet so in no rush to make a decision yet. The leisure battery Industry is a shambles.


It’s pretty hard to argue against the CTEK MXS 10 not being the best portable battery charger currently available for leisure batteries: Image – Amazon

CTEK claim that frequent use of the MXS 10 can extend a leisure batteries life by up to three times. Also, unlike the other chargers shown above the CTEK comes with a 2-year warranty. Now, the CTEK MXS 10 is not the cheapest option as you will see from the link below. However, they do also offer cheaper units using the same technology with either a 3.8, 5 or 7 amp output.

The CTEK offers the best technology and its also supported by over 2,000 reviews at 5 stars. Hence it’s hard to argue that the CTEK MXS 10 is not the best charger for leisure batteries currently available.

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[Richard n Ann]

Is this from a particular battery charger manufacturer or a technical document ? I too have read that a Gel battery may have to be held at 14.4 V for a longer period than a Lead Acid battery in order to ensure it is fully charged and I think this is well understood within the Battery charging industry.

Below is an appraisal of the C-Tec battery charger and I do find it odd that if there charger cannot correctly maintain a Gel battery how do they get this world wide reputation? As I have said previously in this thread, I'm not looking to change to Gel until my existing L.A. batteries expire and I'm expecting to get another 3 plus years out of them yet so in no rush to make a decision yet. The leisure battery Industry is a shambles.


It’s pretty hard to argue against the CTEK MXS 10 not being the best portable battery charger currently available for leisure batteries: Image – Amazon

CTEK claim that frequent use of the MXS 10 can extend a leisure batteries life by up to three times. Also, unlike the other chargers shown above the CTEK comes with a 2-year warranty. Now, the CTEK MXS 10 is not the cheapest option as you will see from the link below. However, they do also offer cheaper units using the same technology with either a 3.8, 5 or 7 amp output.

The CTEK offers the best technology and its also supported by over 2,000 reviews at 5 stars. Hence it’s hard to argue that the CTEK MXS 10 is not the best charger for leisure batteries currently available.

Technical document

 

[PhilandMena]

Thanks Richard, Can you point me to your source about the C-Tec not fully charging a Gel battery please.

 

[Lenny HB]

It’s pretty hard to argue against the CTEK MXS 10 not being the best portable battery charger currently available for leisure batteries: Image – Amazon

But 10 amp is a bit naff in a Motorhome unless you have a single battery of 100 a/h or less even then it's going to take a long time to charge.
The reason I didn't up my 18 amp charger is because we hardly ever use EHU but rely on solar for charging.

 

[PhilandMena]

Technical document

I note this Tecnical document is an answer to a question about a car gel battery. Would this be different for a leisure Gel battery or are they the same battery ???

 

[PhilandMena]

But 10 amp is a bit naff in a Motorhome unless you have a single battery of 100 a/h or less even then it's going to take a long time to charge.
The reason I didn't up my 18 amp charger is because we hardly ever use EHU but rely on solar for charging.

Even if you have 2 x 100 AH batteries the likly hood is they would only be partially discharged and so perhaps this would be OK. They do state the maximum size of a battery bank they will maintain and my MS.07 is more than suitable for my 200 AH battery bank but then again I do my best to stop it discharging below 80% of its total capacity and on the very odd occasion down to 60%. I have read up on the charger you have and it does show 16 Hrs at 14.4 for a Gel battery. The C-Tec do not say how long at 14.4V ??

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