Gas Bottle

Apr 13, 2012
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My 'new' van uses a Calor 4.5kg gas bottle, in its own locker.

The only way that I could carry a spare bottle is with it lying down in another locker or carry it in the hab area.

Calor say that bottles should be carried upright - would it be safe to carry it on its side?
 

tonka

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I think you have answered your own question there....:doh:

"Calor say that bottles should be carried upright"..... I know people do carry them on their side but I have also read on forums as the the reasons you should not.....Can't remember why without looking it all up again..
 

sean n maggie

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says you can carry on the side but must stand up a while before you connect to a regulator to allow bottle to settle again.....so you wouldnt be able to connect straight away if other run out...
 
OP
Barclaybasher
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(y) Thanks ! now which one is it ? (y)(y)(y):D:D
 

sean n maggie

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this is a post from another forum....

just spoken to my friend up the road, Mr Gas ........ he is a manager for BOC.

Bottles should always be transported vertically as the value on the top of the bottle is set for gas pressure and not liquid (which is normally present in the lower portion of the bottle)
 

AuldCodger

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Gas bottles can sure be nasty wee devils - Probably about half way through before the action really kicks off.
My apologies if this clip has already done the rounds and also to the op as this is of no help whatsoever :)
 

DuxDeluxe

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this is a post from another forum....

just spoken to my friend up the road, Mr Gas ........ he is a manager for BOC.

Bottles should always be transported vertically as the value on the top of the bottle is set for gas pressure and not liquid (which is normally present in the lower portion of the bottle)
The pressure will be the same throughout the bottle......... unless something has changed.....
 
OP
Barclaybasher
Apr 13, 2012
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this is a post from another forum....

Bottles should always be transported vertically as the valve on the top of the bottle is set for gas pressure and not liquid (which is normally present in the lower portion of the bottle)
Understand....... but would have thought that a valve designed for gas would be safer when used for liquid (bottle lying on its side)

Thanks everyone for your interest

Just need to know if it is safe to carry the bottle secured on its side with padding/protection
 

johnp10

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We've been here in the past.
Valves on LPG cylinders are designed to contain a gas, not a liquid.
The gas in liquid form can attack and damage the valve, making it unsafe.
By carrying the cylinder upright, the valve is containing pressure in a gas space, not in contact with the liquid.
Carrying them laid down is not just unsafe, it's downright dangerous.
Any gas company or MSDS for LPG will tell you that.
Before we get the usual "yes, but..." posts, the ones used on fork lifts etc. have different valve work altogether.
 
OP
Barclaybasher
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Thanks, yes I have just read pages of info, the safety valve (red plug) behind the valve operates to release gas - when the bottle is heated, and might not work covered by liquid gas - didn't read about it being attacked by the liquid though.

It seems in use however that bottles have been carried lying flat by campers, tradesmen, for many years without any problem. It should be stood upright for a period before use.

The major problem for fire services attending vehicle fires is not knowing if gas canisters are present - the bottle standing up or lying down would pose the same danger.

I cannot fit a spare bottle upright in any locker so either : I don't carry a spare (only 4.5kg on board); lay it flat in an outside locker or carry it in the hab area.

None of these are ideal but I have to make a choice
 
Apr 9, 2013
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There seems to be an awful lot of b*llsh*t being said about the hazards of horizontal cylinders.

I do not believe for one moment that valves designed for gas are "attacked" by liquid gas. It would be bl**dy poor design to use anything in a gas valve that couldn't tolerate contact with liquid gas.

Liquid gas is very runny and does not need time to settle either. Certainly no more time that a carton of milk takes before opening. There's a small chance of a small quantity of liquid gas trapped near the valve entering the pipework but it will vapourise long before reaching your cooker or fridge. (Unlike a blowtorch where the short distance can cause flaring).

The main reason not to carry a cylinder horizontally is that if there *is* a leak, it will be of liquid gas which will rapidly expand into a much larger volume.

So, for this reason, not a good idea but not for any of the other reasons given.

Personally, I wouldn't lose too much sleep over carrying a horizontal one in an external locker as long as it was very well secured.
 

OldAgeTravellers

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Personally, I wouldn't lose too much sleep over carrying a horizontal one in an external locker as long as it was very well secured.
And the locker must be vented. Few lockers except the gas locker have gas drops in them so you may have to construct a sealed but vented locker within the locker. Why not investigate an underslung gas tank. I really can't understand a manufacturer designing a van without properly thinking out the gas bottle storage.
Steve
 
OP
Barclaybasher
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Fitting a refillable tank might be an option. The gas locker itself is only just big enough for a Calor 4,5kg bottle but the locker has a 10" deep, vented space below it (the bottle itself sits on a removable shelf). The van is 23 years old (Hymer Eriba) and may have been built for different gas bottles with a spare stored below shelf - but it's too small for the Calor bottle to stand upright but might just fit lying down
 

johnp10

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Lying LPG cylinders down is dangerous, that's why the gas companies advise against it.
Don't convince yourself it's ok just for convenience, it's not.
As timdownieuk has shown, lots of bullshit advice on this issue.
Also good advice.
If a valve leaks, the release will be of gas.
As soon as the pressure is released, the LPG boils back to a gas almost immediately, creating large amounts of explosive gas / air mixture.
Little is needed, only 2.1% gas by volume in the gas / air mix is required to create an explosive mix.
This will happen in the event of valve failure in whatever orientation.
The issue is the purpose of the valve, which is to contain the substance as a gas, not a liquid.
Why don't you simply ask a gas company for official advice?

Fitting a refillable tank is your best, safest, option.
 

OldAgeTravellers

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... but the locker has a 10" deep, vented space below it (the bottle itself sits on a removable shelf). The van is 23 years old (Hymer Eriba) and may have been built for different gas bottles with a spare stored below shelf - but it's too small for the Calor bottle to stand upright but might just fit lying down
Could you not take the shelf out and fit an 11kg or a gaslow or equivalent.
Steve
 
Aug 6, 2013
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Lying LPG cylinders down is dangerous, that's why the gas companies advise against it.
Don't convince yourself it's ok just for convenience, it's not.
As timdownieuk has shown, lots of bullshit advice on this issue.
Also good advice.
If a valve leaks, the release will be of gas.
As soon as the pressure is released, the LPG boils back to a gas almost immediately, creating large amounts of explosive gas / air mixture.
Little is needed, only 2.1% gas by volume in the gas / air mix is required to create an explosive mix.
This will happen in the event of valve failure in whatever orientation.
The issue is the purpose of the valve, which is to contain the substance as a gas, not a liquid.
Why don't you simply ask a gas company for official advice?

Fitting a refillable tank is your best, safest, option.
 
Aug 6, 2013
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The reason for the advice to carry bottles upright is simple: if the bottle is upright a leaking valve (whether not fully closed or faulty) will discharge vapour (gas); if the bottle is lying on its side under the same circumstances it will discharge liquid. Put simply 2cc (for example) of leaked gas will dissipate quickly and, in most circumstances, cause little danger. A 2cc of leaked liquid turns into 540cc of gas - in most circumstances very much more dangerous.
 

OldAgeTravellers

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So, in summary.....it's dangerous?
It depends upon your level of "Elf-n-Safety" In Morocco very big trucks travel around all the time fully laden with gas bottles on their sides so as to get the maximum stacking density and I have never heard of one exploding, with about a hundred or so gas cylinders on board we would probably have heard it from here! And they travel in full Moroccan sun. OK they do have a lower fill level usually but only slightly although I did get one once that was so full it was putting out liquid gas, I had to vent it for about three minutes before I could use it!!
Hence my advice above for a sealed but vented locker.
"Elf-n-Safety" in the UK does tend to go over the top to avoid litigation from plonkers like the ones who fill ordinary gas bottles at LPG stations with adaptors from FleaBay.
All in all the best solution for the OP is to get a tank fitted and keep the little one as backup.
Steve
 
Apr 9, 2013
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So, in summary.....it's dangerous?
Nothing's black and white. Nothing is entirely safe. Carrying a cylinder on its side is less safe than carrying it upright.

How much less safe is the question and how much risk are you comfortable with? Given the design of the shielding around the valve the risk of it opening in transit is minimal if you take any sort of care to secure it.
 
OP
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I began this thread because I wanted to know if it was safe to carry gas bottles lying down and if not - why?

I now understand that if lying down a leak from the valve, if faulty or damaged, would spill liquid which would rapidly expand into gas - very dangerous.

The likely-hood of the valve leaking, if stored on its side securely in a vented locker, is remote, but has to be considered.

Gas leaking from a faulty valve stored upright in the back of a builders van or the boot of a camper's car could be as dangerous.

Although the risk is small (minute) I will carry just the one bottle for now. If I decide to keep the van and travel I will install a refillable tank - seems a good idea anyway

Thanks to all - sometimes just knowing 'the regulations' is not enough - knowing why they are there gives a better understanding of the danger. Thanks again to everyone.:)(y)(y)
 

sean n maggie

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I began this thread because I wanted to know if it was safe to carry gas bottles lying down and if not - why?

I now understand that if lying down a leak from the valve, if faulty or damaged, would spill liquid which would rapidly expand into gas - very dangerous.

The likely-hood of the valve leaking, if stored on its side securely in a vented locker, is remote, but has to be considered.

Gas leaking from a faulty valve stored upright in the back of a builders van or the boot of a camper's car could be as dangerous.

Although the risk is small (minute) I will carry just the one bottle for now. If I decide to keep the van and travel I will install a refillable tank - seems a good idea anyway

Thanks to all - sometimes just knowing 'the regulations' is not enough - knowing why they are there gives a better understanding of the danger. Thanks again to everyone.:)(y)(y)

you get some great advice on this site,,,,some you agree with and some you dont,,,,but everyone is here to help.....safe trips ,,,and enjoy your van.......
 
Apr 9, 2013
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OK.
The industry is wrong.
Accepted.
Sarcasm? Whatever. If you believe that everything is black and white then nothing will convince you that shades of grey exist.

Just yesterday I drove my van on public roads with a passenger lying on the bed. Why? Well, all I'll say here is that there were special circumstances and it was the least worst option. Undoubtably illegal and a bit dangerous but I did it anyway.

Tim
 

johnp10

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Tim,
Not sarcasm, just acceptance that your dubious ideas contradict industry best practice.
Where dangerous goods are concerned, there is no grey, only black and white.
Your comparison with passengers has no relevance.
Do as you please, I'm past caring, but be wary of giving questionable safety advice on a public forum.
I think this has run its course?
 

Styx

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My 'new' van uses a Calor 4.5kg gas bottle, in its own locker....
I am in the same position as you but my ‘Plan B’ is to carry one of those £10 portable camping stoves that use aerosol-sized canisters – then, should the gas run out, I can heat some water for a cup of tea/have a wash etc and gently set about finding somewhere to exchange the gas bottle… (y)

 
Apr 9, 2013
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Tim,
Not sarcasm, just acceptance that your dubious ideas contradict industry best practice.
Where dangerous goods are concerned, there is no grey, only black and white.
Your comparison with passengers has no relevance.
Do as you please, I'm past caring, but be wary of giving questionable safety advice on a public forum.
I think this has run its course?
Well I'm sorry that you don't seem to understand my point. Nowhere have I disagreed that "best practice" is to carry liquid gas cylinders secured in an upright position.

My point is that deviating from best practice isn't catastrophically dangerous, indeed, the evidence would suggest that it is hardly dangerous at all.

Which evidence? Well, if it was that dangerous it would be criminally negligent of any gas supplier to not print this warning on every bottle. Funnily enough, they don't. It was that dangerous they would also put up signs by the cages of gas bottle advising you of the safe modes of carriage. Funnily enough, again they don't. Lastly, they would surely train counter staff to advise purchasers of the correct and only safe method of transport of their cylinders. Again they don't.

So, in summary, IF you can't follow best practice because your car has nowhere to secure a cylinder upright, securing one horizontally is better that having it unsecured in an upright position.
 

johnp10

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Tim,
"Best Practice" is aimed at removing risks from dangerous situations, as with the petrochemical industry's best practice regarding not carrying petrol and kerosene in the same tanker.
Extremely dangerous situations can quickly arise.
Of course there are situations where best practice isn't possible, but I feel to advocate the carriage of cylinders as a matter of course in a manner which flies in the face of industry advice doesn't do the person asking the question any favours.

His best bet is to get a larger, fitted tank.

I think on that, at least, we can agree and leave it there?

Burstner,
Like your Eriba van, saw it at Sandy.
 
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