Eco Tree 100 ah Lithium with bluetooth, install.

[Jimbohorlicks]

Ok,so I was a winner of the Ecotree half price lithium battery in the January draw.
It came at the right time because my current leisure batteries were failing and I suspect one of them was pulling the others down.
I had 2 X 110 ah ( one is at least 8 years ol 2 probably 7 years old and a 95 ah,that came with the van at 5 years old. with 2 X 100 watt of solar through an mppt controller and a 3rd 100w panel that I can use loose as a portable panel connected through a pmw controller wired independently .
When I was notified in February that I had " won" the Lithium battery,at a price of £375, I had to think hard . Feb/ March is a financial hit month for us.I needed to replace my starter battery,van insurance ,car insurance, hab check, Mot.etc
We have a good payload on the van of around 700 kg,but carry 2 X electric fold up bikes,a pop up quest and all the other stuff we don't need.
A lot of our MHoming is done off grid.
For the price of the lithium I could buy 3 X 110ah batteries for around £250 and not change anything.These would be ok for 5- 6 years probably and by that time lithium would be down in price to what I am paying half price now.
I didn't want to spend even more dosh on all the bells and whistles such as B2Bs,smart shunts,lithium mppt controller,lithium chargers,etc etc
Speaking to Rob and Paul at Oaktree (Ecotree Lithium),I found them to be most helpful and they advised that my existing setup could accommodate a "drop in" lithium battery.with some minor changes
Rather than having the 110ah lithium battery I requested to change it for a 100ah with heater and Bluetooth,This would provide me with a means then to monitor the state of charge of the battery without having to resort to other "smart" devices..
I received the battery but noted there were no conical terminals,.but just flat terminals with 8 mm screw in studs which meant I would have to cut and crimp on spade terminals to my existing cables. Speaking to Paul at Ecotree and he duly supplied replacement conical post adaptors that screwed into the flat terminals so my existing connections fitted without change.
The battery arrived with a 54% state of charge as below.

Battery as recieved
Bluetooth app downloaded and can see the following.

So the plan now is to disconnect the existing solar then batteries and install this Ecotree Lithium with bluetooth.
Details tomorrow.
Sorry if you found this boring and not very technical.

 

[The Wino]

I think if I thought about it I'd probably have gone for the Bluetooth option rather than 110 ah without.

 

[Jimbohorlicks]

So here goes the install.
This is my current set up.
1 x95ah in the external battery box.

2 X 110 ah under a beach seat area next to charger in an area that could not be used for other storage.

The battery at the rear is housed in a battery box and the one to the front is strapped down to a plywood base built over the wiring going into the fuse box /built in charger ( strap removed in the photo).
A 1000 watt inverter to the left( black top) but not connected to batteries but with additional plug socket to front of fuse box area ,front right. A 2 battery 10 amp pmw controller (bottom right) wired to the rear battery with second terminal to starter battery on 20 % . Battery master top right( currently disconnected).The main 200 watt solar ,through an mppt controller is wired directly through to the external battery (25 amp fused).
Mppt controller which needs switching to the gel setting in the interim.

So solar disconnected,batteries disconnected and the lithium battery installed in the outer locker as a standalone battery.

Solar reconnected and as it's a sunny afternoon will let solar charge the lithium.

so charging from solar at 4.5amps,mid afternoon.
After several mins @5 pm

Overnight just on solar by 10 am( A dull day )
Registerd 90% charging at 2.3amp.
Switching on the mains battery charger(ehu) only increased the charge rate by 1 amp ,I assume that the charger sees the lithium battery at 13.5 v as fully charged.

By lunchtime the battery was 97% charged and the BMS has switched it to standby.Observing this condition to switch between standby and charging until the battery was fully charged at 100%

Fully charged at 100% and alternating on the BMS between Charging and standby,charge rate from solar was 1.2 amps

And finally a photo of the 4 cells voltage that make up the battery.

The next job is to decide if I should keep one of the other batteries as a backup ?This could be kept charged up if on ehu ,or I had considered to connect it to the lithium with a battery master but assume because the battery master only sees voltages, it would permanently charge the Pb battery at 1-4 amps.so would have to review this.
I plan to turn on all the van electrics ,TV etc sometime this week and run the lithium down simulating an overnight in the van.and then recheck.
Out next trip out is on ehu but after that we are basically off grid for 1 week 2 weeks so will be good to see what happens then .
Again apologies for the length.

 

[Hoovie]

Just a little question for you .... What is the maximum discharge current of this new Lithium Battery you have fitted? Asking as quite often on a battery of 100ah, they are rated at 100A. This could be important to know as when (if?) you connect your 1000W inverter up, if you ran that at full power, the current draw of the inverter (with the approx 20% uplift for inefficiency) plus the other miscellaneous 12V loads on the battery would well exceed 100A, which would shut down the battery.


Oh, another one .... You mentioned the battery went into standby when it got to 97% charge? What does that mean with that battery exactly? Is it actually turning itself off during that time and not providing energy?

 

[The Wino]

On the battery master constantly charging if connected between lithium and lead batteries there was a recent post about the ablemail device that works in a similar way but has a setting for the lithium/ lead scenario

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[Jimbohorlicks]

Just a little question for you .... What is the maximum discharge current of this new Lithium Battery you have fitted? Asking as quite often on a battery of 100ah, they are rated at 100A. This could be important to know as when (if?) you connect your 1000W inverter up, if you ran that at full power, the current draw of the inverter (with the approx 20% uplift for inefficiency) plus the other miscellaneous 12V loads on the battery would well exceed 100A, which would shut down the battery.


Oh, another one .... You mentioned the battery went into standby when it got to 97% charge? What does that mean with that battery exactly? Is it actually turning itself off during that time and not providing energy?

The 100ah lithium battery spec indicates a max current draw of 100 amps.
I hadn't planned to connect the inverter to the lithium battery ,as we have hardly ever used it with the pb batteries anyway. But was considering to connect it to the existing standalone Pb batteries that are currently in isolation in the underseat area. I had planned to keep one of the Pb batteries as a back up to the lithium,just in case.
For the standby indication,I didn't have anything else switched on in the van so I do not know whether the standby mode turned the battery off,I don't think it did but will check that. I assumed that as the lithium was nearing its 100% capacity that it was switching between charge and no charge as I did notice that the charging current did drop to zero when the battery was showing on standby mode.

The standby condition was only apparrant for 30 seconds or so ,then it went back into charge mode for a few minutes and then standby again.
The next time I checked the battery it was showing as fully charged 100% ,which did surprise me as I thought with the solar on a gel setting it would not be able to fully charge the 100 ah battery to 100%.This morning it's showing 97% and charging at 1.6 amps from solar as it's very dull at the mo and the van is partially shaded..
To revert back to your question on the standby mode switching off the battery,I would expect that if that occurred it would only be momentarily if the van was in use as some sort of power drain would be occurring most of the time .I will recheck the spec on the battery but it does have a built in BMS which would ,as in the case of this battery stop it overcharging as shown by the zero charge rate when on standby..
Have you any advice,re the keeping of the Pb battery/ batteries as a back up and keeping them charged up when off grid?

 

[Jimbohorlicks]

I think if I thought about it I'd probably have gone for the Bluetooth option rather than 110 ah without.

If I couldn't have switched to the Bluetooth battery, albeit at a little lower ah rating( 100 ah against the offered 110ah) ,I would have stuck with Pb batteries ,basically because of the cost of all the additional kit required to monitor the charging rates etc.with the lithium. I sometimes get a little paranoid on battery power and even with the lead batteries was checking the voltages at least daily.

 

[chaser]

Very impressed , but just a question for information, why has the voltage dial got up to 60 volts on it, surely the battery would be melted before it got half that?

 

[Jimbohorlicks]

Very impressed , but just a question for information, why has the voltage dial got up to 60 volts on it, surely the battery would be melted before it got half that?

It's just a scale ,a bit like your van Speedo that shows it can do 120 mph ,but you never go over 40mph .

 

[Hoovie]

The 100ah lithium battery spec indicates a max current draw of 100 amps.
I hadn't planned to connect the inverter to the lithium battery ,as we have hardly ever used it with the pb batteries anyway. But was considering to connect it to the existing standalone Pb batteries that are currently in isolation in the underseat area. I had planned to keep one of the Pb batteries as a back up to the lithium,just in case.
For the standby indication,I didn't have anything else switched on in the van so I do not know whether the standby mode turned the battery off,I don't think it did but will check that. I assumed that as the lithium was nearing its 100% capacity that it was switching between charge and no charge as I did notice that the charging current did drop to zero when the battery was showing on standby mode.
View attachment 600267
View attachment 600268
The standby condition was only apparrant for 30 seconds or so ,then it went back into charge mode for a few minutes and then standby again.
The next time I checked the battery it was showing as fully charged 100% ,which did surprise me as I thought with the solar on a gel setting it would not be able to fully charge the 100 ah battery to 100%.This morning it's showing 97% and charging at 1.6 amps from solar as it's very dull at the mo and the van is partially shaded..
To revert back to your question on the standby mode switching off the battery,I would expect that if that occurred it would only be momentarily if the van was in use as some sort of power drain would be occurring most of the time .I will recheck the spec on the battery but it does have a built in BMS which would ,as in the case of this battery stop it overcharging as shown by the zero charge rate when on standby..
Have you any advice,re the keeping of the Pb battery/ batteries as a back up and keeping them charged up when off grid?

I really would be interested about how you get on with the battery and this standby thing.... it is something I am investigating on another installation and a battery going into "standby" would imply it turning off i.e. losing power and so you lose power in the whole van? maybe "Standby" in this case is only on the charging side and the LOAD side is still active. I honestly don't know and I don't want to cast any dispersions or doubts on these batteries, it is just something I would like to understand if you could update the thread after a time of using.


Ref keeping the Pb Batteries, if you have the payload and space available I don't think it is a bad idea at all. I actually run a Hybrid setup of Lead + Lithium (300Ah Lead + 100Ah or 200Ah (depending on requirements) Lithium) in my own Motorhome and find it works very well. It does need some specific kit for it to work correctly really though (I have a specially designed programmable relay between the Lead and Lithium).

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[paddymcc]

I plan to turn on all the van electrics ,TV etc sometime this week and run the lithium down simulating an overnight in the van.and then

I wanted to do similar when I fitted my lithium. My 3 way fridge can run on 12V (some vans I don't think this is possible) so that was the easiest way to get a rapid discharge ( about 10A for my fridge). I just left the fridge door open so it was working continuously.
I doubt that you will decide to keep the lead battery once you are happy that the lithium is working well.

 

[Carpmart]

I really would be interested about how you get on with the battery and this standby thing.... it is something I am investigating on another installation and a battery going into "standby" would imply it turning off i.e. losing power and so you lose power in the whole van? maybe "Standby" in this case is only on the charging side and the LOAD side is still active. I honestly don't know and I don't want to cast any dispersions or doubts on these batteries, it is just something I would like to understand if you could update the thread after a time of using.


Ref keeping the Pb Batteries, if you have the payload and space available I don't think it is a bad idea at all. I actually run a Hybrid setup of Lead + Lithium (300Ah Lead + 100Ah or 200Ah (depending on requirements) Lithium) in my own Motorhome and find it works very well. It does need some specific kit for it to work correctly really though (I have a specially designed programmable relay between the Lead and Lithium).

This sounds interesting… can you supply any more details on the relay? I have lithium and PB on board but have to date, kept them separate and charged via mains on separate channels with their own profiles. Blending or switching the power source between the two would be very useful.

 

[Lenny HB]

Pleased to see you got rid of those awful clip on battery terminals they really are bad news.
A bit worried you are relying on the BMS to control the charging, the BMS should always be treated as a last resort to prevent battery damage. I know you said you didn't want to spend more money on upgrading the rest of the system but it is the only way of getting the best out of Lithium.

 

[Jimbohorlicks]

Yes,thanks for the reply,You have sparked an interest so will check out the "standby" mode to see if it does turn off the power,I will put a small light on next time I check the charging and see if it flickers off when the standby comes on.If I have anything that consumes more power than that going in it would never active the standby mode.
I would be interested to learn more about your programmable pb- lithium relay.sounds interesting.What I am planning to do is to use a spare solar panel I have with a pmw controller wired independently from the lithium set up to charge up any Pb batteries I may retain,.and see how that goes for when we are off grid.I do have space on the roof for the panel so may eventually put it up there.

 

[Jimbohorlicks]

I wanted to do similar when I fitted my lithium. My 3 way fridge can run on 12V (some vans I don't think this is possible) so that was the easiest way to get a rapid discharge ( about 10A for my fridge). I just left the fridge door open so it was working continuously.
I doubt that you will decide to keep the lead battery once you are happy that the lithium is working well.

My van won't run the fridge on 12 v ( not at the moment ) unless the engine is running. I would prefer to keep my fridge door shut anyway as I prefer cold beer. . I may well remove the pb batteries as you say but for the moment it's belt and braces

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[Jimbohorlicks]

Hi Hoovie
Re the "standby" mode shown on the battery bms. I just checked the van and the lithium battery is showing 100%charged and switching between charging and standby on the bms app.
I switched on an overhead light and waited until the bms showed "standby".
A few second wait and "standby" came on, no change to the power in the van, lights still on. Picture attached with overhead lights reflected in a mirror.

I also noted that the bms app also shows a "discharging" as well, which I assume to be because the lights are on and consuming power.

I assume because the battery is at 100% state of charge that the minor current draw from the lights is causing the battery to alternate between, charging, standby and discharging. I will now need to check again with more power being consumed than the solar is putting back in. I'll try the TV, after lunch.

 

[Hoovie]

Yes,thanks for the reply,You have sparked an interest so will check out the "standby" mode to see if it does turn off the power,I will put a small light on next time I check the charging and see if it flickers off when the standby comes on.If I have anything that consumes more power than that going in it would never active the standby mode.
I would be interested to learn more about your programmable pb- lithium relay.sounds interesting.What I am planning to do is to use a spare solar panel I have with a pmw controller wired independently from the lithium set up to charge up any Pb batteries I may retain,.and see how that goes for when we are off grid.I do have space on the roof for the panel so may eventually put it up there.

Ref the standby. I am investigating an install where the user has a battery that seems to go into standby and his truma timer resets, presumably due to losing power. when the charger is on, you should not notice a standby issue as the charger would supply power, but off-charge is another matter. try using something that resets on a power drop if you have one?

(and to reiterate in case anyone takes offence as sometimes seems to happen with my posts ... I am not making any comments about this battery model or supplier, I am just interested in the logic of the "standby" that seems to be a feature of some lithium batteries)

 

[Hoovie]

This sounds interesting… can you supply any more details on the relay? I have lithium and PB on board but have to date, kept them separate and charged via mains on separate channels with their own profiles. Blending or switching the power source between the two would be very useful.

.... I would be interested to learn more about your programmable pb- lithium relay.sounds interesting.What I am planning to do is to use a spare solar panel I have with a pmw controller wired independently from the lithium set up to charge up any Pb batteries I may retain,.and see how that goes for when we are off grid.I do have space on the roof for the panel so may eventually put it up there.

Here is a writeup about my Hybrid setup - https://www.wildebus.com/hybrid-battery-bank-introduction/
The relay I use is to my own specification and is what I call a "VSDR Lithium Controller" - it is a High Current Latching Programmable Relay which comes set with certain parameters but can be tweaked and adjusted via an optional Bluetooth Module. Simplistically, it is a bit like a VSR in reverse but with a very specific mode of operation to work with a Lithium and Lead battery combination.

 

[Jimbohorlicks]

Yes ,that's interesting.I"m not sure I have anything that resets if the power drops off.Maybe the tv.but that may require more sunshine for the solar than we have today to power it back up to a standby mode.
You say that in the case you have with a particular battery that with no charging IE off charge a power off occurred, Can I ask why would the battery go into a standby mode if it is off charge? Surely there is always something taking power from the battery ,albeit small so the battery should be never be at a 100% SOC if off charge ?

 

[chaser]

It's just a scale ,a bit like your van Speedo that shows it can do 120 mph ,but you never go over 40mph .

Yes but it's a scale that is no where near what is needed, a Speedo might say 120 but you can likely do 100.
This scale you have is 4 times what it will ever be , it would be a far better indicater of voltage you have in your battery if it was calibrated to say 20 on a wider scale.

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[Jimbohorlicks]

I agree chaser but that's what comes with the kit ,as it were, the digital reading display however is far better than the reading directly from the "dial clock"

 

[Guigsy]

Yes but it's a scale that is no where near what is needed, a Speedo might say 120 but you can likely do 100.
This scale you have is 4 times what it will ever be , it would be a far better indicater of voltage you have in your battery if it was calibrated to say 20 on a wider scale.

It's probably because the same software is used on batteries up to 48v. It'd be nice if the app was a bit smarter, but it's unlikely EcoTree own the app, it's probably the default one that comes with whatever BMS they buy for their batteries.

 

[Hoovie]

Yes ,that's interesting.I"m not sure I have anything that resets if the power drops off.Maybe the tv.but that may require more sunshine for the solar than we have today to power it back up to a standby mode.
You say that in the case you have with a particular battery that with no charging IE off charge a power off occurred, Can I ask why would the battery go into a standby mode if it is off charge? Surely there is always something taking power from the battery ,albeit small so the battery should be never be at a 100% SOC if off charge ?

And that is the mystery .... WHY would it? But I know this HAS happened on one particular battery model which has now had a reprogrammed BMS to fix that undesirable behaviour and this other battery (different model) seem similar. On the first one, the battery maker suggested increasing the load so it is above the standby threshold (unacceptable solution) and on the current investigation (not my own setup), it seems to happen when the load is very small, so maybe the thresholds are set too low (they need to be 0.000A!).
The battery I personally have goes into Standby, but only when there is no load detected for 24 hours (so assumed to be in storage) and self-wakes on a load. That behaviour is fine.

 

[Jimbohorlicks]

It's probably because the same software is used on batteries up to 48v. It'd be nice if the app was a bit smarter, but it's unlikely EcoTree own the app, it's probably the default one that comes with whatever BMS they buy for their batteries.

Yes the app is a generic app and is used by Shenzhen Grenergy Technology.,so assume it's also used for household applications where voltages are much higher.
There are lots of similar apps in playstore ,some from the same company so I don't know whether they are for a specific product or will in fact read my battery.When I have time I will check a few out but at the moment it's all working ok

 

[Jimbohorlicks]

Hoovie sent you a pm

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[Ditcha]

Jim on your mppt controller you have a custom setting can you not input your lithium charge profile here?

 

[Ditcha]

Also remember if the lithium is standing for any length of time its recommended to run it down to about 80% charge and not to store it at full charge.

 

[Jimbohorlicks]

Hi Dave,yes I contacted the mppt company ,Solar, and they linked me to a download of software that can upgrade the custom setting to a Lithium profile. I just need an R whatsit plug to do that but the instructions are a bit headachey.I just need to review what's needed to be done when I am in the right mindset.reprogramming a working mppt controller is not on my immediate agenda.I will show you the details when we next meet up.
Thanks for the reminder re the 100 % SOC .I'm sat in the van with the telly on and the lights full on and the battery is going nowhere as it's sunny and the solar is currently compensating for the current draw.
To save pulling the inline fuse out I will have to fit an isolator switch ,which will be much easier but the one you have used does look a bit chunky..
Maybe a lighter duty one will suffice for my 200w of solar.
I now need to look at running the fridge part time from the lithium battery when it's sunny.to save on LPG ,but need to research how to do that.
Are you going to Pershore at Easter?
Ps the mppt controller is currently set at the gel setting ,recommended by Ecotree. ( Until I am brave enough to attempt the upgrade)

 

[Lenny HB]

I now need to look at running the fridge part time from the lithium battery when it's sunny.to save on LPG ,but need to research how to do that.
Are you going to Pershore at Easter?
Ps the mppt controller is currently set at the gel setting ,recommended by Ecotree. ( Until I am brave enough to attempt the upgrade)

I have a Votronic solar controller that has an AES out so when the batteries are charged and there is plenty of solar it send a signal to the S= terminal on the fridge and the fridge switches to 12v.

That solar controller doesn't have an absorption phase so it will probably be OK on the gel setting, float voltage may be a bit high.

 

[Jimbohorlicks]

I have a Votronic solar controller that has an AES out so when the batteries are charged and there is plenty of solar it send a signal to the S= terminal on the fridge and the fridge switches to 12v.

That solar controller doesn't have an absorption phase so it will probably be OK on the gel setting, float voltage may be a bit high.

Thank Lenny will check the controllers for that AES out ,is it just a case of connecting to the S= terminal directly.? My fridge is a dometic RMS8501 series but manual switch over.not sure where that terminal is currently

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