Ducatto 2.8 idTD Loosing Power

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Old Soldier

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Like me, Elle seems to be loosing power and energy!
Our 16 year old Swift Gazelle feels like she is loosing power. It might be my imagination, but it seems that I'm having to drop down the gears more, or I notice I am down to 3rd when before I got up the same hill in forth. She still poodles along at 70 on the motorway if requested but now my foots flat to the floor when before I'm sure I had a bit left if required. I have not loaded anything new, infact I have lightened her load quite a bit other than my bacon butties and beer stocks. No smoking exhaust, no noisy turbo and no loose carpet under the accelerator! She is due her yearly full service and MOT shortly but only done 5600 miles since the last one. Total mileage is around 58000.

Anyone got any ideas?
Thanks. Pete
 
Old Soldier said:
Like me, Elle seems to be loosing power and energy!
Our 16 year old Swift Gazelle feels like she is loosing power. It might be my imagination, but it seems that I'm having to drop down the gears more, or I notice I am down to 3rd when before I got up the same hill in forth. She still poodles along at 70 on the motorway if requested but now my foots flat to the floor when before I'm sure I had a bit left if required. I have not loaded anything new, infact I have lightened her load quite a bit other than my bacon butties and beer stocks. No smoking exhaust, no noisy turbo and no loose carpet under the accelerator! She is due her yearly full service and MOT shortly but only done 5600 miles since the last one. Total mileage is around 58000.

Anyone got any ideas?
Thanks. Pete
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When was the fuel filter last changed ?
 
Air filter clean and all turbo pipework tight?
 
MH 55 FUN said:
When was the fuel filter last changed ?
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This time last year....(according to the used parts list on the service invoice!?) Mileage was 51732.

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Old Soldier said:
This time last year....(according to the used parts list on the service invoice!?) Mileage was 51732.
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If the air filter is ok consider having a Terraclean done and / or run several tanks of Shell V Power, or similar through it & see if there's any difference, before contemplating spending big bucks.
 
MH 55 FUN said:
If the air filter is ok consider having a Terraclean done and / or run several tanks of Shell V Power, or similar through it & see if there's any difference, before contemplating spending big bucks.
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Good advice thanks. I have tried putting in a couple of small bottles of RedX, something I remember from my youth, but think it might be too early for any resulting improvement.
 
Dont laugh but a mouse nest in the air box if its not used much.
 
Enword said:
Dont laugh but a mouse nest in the air box if its not used much.
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She does get used every month when we are not away on longer trips but I will send the cat in after I get back from town this afternoon!!

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check the air intake pipe too. a friend had a loss of power on his work van and nothing was obvious. after stripping down a birds nest was found in the intake pipe
 
I had a quad in here a few years ago they were complaining it was flat, I ask when was the last time you cleaned the air filter as the exhaust was black with soot, the reply "never" so I whipped off the seat, took the top off the air box, I dont actually know how he got to me it was full of hay & loft insulation, Home from home for Mr G Mouse :sneaky:
 
mitzimad said:
waste gate on turbo seizing up?
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Hi, what's one of them?

Just been advised by a local friend to wait till the service and see if that improves the engine efficiency. Sounds like good advice but will check out if anything has made a home anywhere tomorrow.
Thanks to all who have responded. :clap:
 
At that age the rubber intake pipes between the turbo and inlet manifold will be starting to perish and you may have a small split causing boost pressure loss. If you are lucky you may hear the leak but it's very difficult to get boost without being under load.

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Old Soldier said:
Like me, Elle seems to be loosing power and energy!
Our 16 year old Swift Gazelle feels like she is loosing power. It might be my imagination, but it seems that I'm having to drop down the gears more, or I notice I am down to 3rd when before I got up the same hill in forth. She still poodles along at 70 on the motorway if requested but now my foots flat to the floor when before I'm sure I had a bit left if required. I have not loaded anything new, infact I have lightened her load quite a bit other than my bacon butties and beer stocks. No smoking exhaust, no noisy turbo and no loose carpet under the accelerator! She is due her yearly full service and MOT shortly but only done 5600 miles since the last one. Total mileage is around 58000.

Anyone got any ideas?
Thanks. Pete
Click to expand...

Give her an Italian tune up to clear the arteries :)
 
Derbyshire wanderer said:
At that age the rubber intake pipes between the turbo and inlet manifold will be starting to perish and you may have a small split causing boost pressure loss. If you are lucky you may hear the leak but it's very difficult to get boost without being under load.
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That sounds interesting. Will get it checked out. Thanks.
 
looks similar to this
4544320.jpg
 
mitzimad said:
looks similar to this
4544320.jpg
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It's absolutely pissisting it down outside at the moment so will look for it in the morning but would I have one of those nice new shiny components on my old girl?
 
if the boost hoses are originals I would remove them and inspect them not so much for holes or cuts etc but for delamination. It is quite common for these pipes to delaminate with age causing them to restrict airflow which will give the symptoms you describe. Silicon hoses or stainless boost pipes are a fit and forget upgrade to the OEM spec.

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An easy check for the waste gate valve is to use a pair of mole grips on the control rod to move the valve.

 
Lorryman100 said:
if the boost hoses are originals I would remove them and inspect them not so much for holes or cuts etc but for delamination. It is quite common for these pipes to delaminate with age causing them to restrict airflow which will give the symptoms you describe. Silicon hoses or stainless boost pipes are a fit and forget upgrade to the OEM spec.
Click to expand...


 
Lorryman100 said:
if the boost hoses are originals I would remove them and inspect them not so much for holes or cuts etc but for delamination. It is quite common for these pipes to delaminate with age causing them to restrict airflow which will give the symptoms you describe. Silicon hoses or stainless boost pipes are a fit and forget upgrade to the OEM spec.
Click to expand...

Another good bit of advice....will keep it in mind. Thanks.
 
Its very unlikely to be a siezed wastegate as on this generation they are normally closed and open only under high boost conditions (a fairly rare situation on a motorhome) so they tend to sieze shut if anything. Air intake blockage would be my first area for investigation, as said before Mice make nests in air filter housings and the van doesn't have to be out of use for long for the meeces to make a new home. I've found dead mice in the bottom of air filter housings before now. If that doesn't bring anything to light then fuel filter would be next in line. Diesels need three things to run well: air and plenty of it, fuel at high pressure and good compression.

One other possibility (although I'm not sure the 2.8 idtd has one) is the throttle valve, I had the one on my work Ducato (2.0 litre JTD) play up not long ago, the ball and socket on the operating linkage had worn away (209,000 miles) and the butterfly valve was simply getting sucked shut.
D.
 
dave newell lvs said:
Its very unlikely to be a siezed wastegate as on this generation they are normally closed and open only under high boost conditions (a fairly rare situation on a motorhome) so they tend to sieze shut if anything. Air intake blockage would be my first area for investigation, as said before Mice make nests in air filter housings and the van doesn't have to be out of use for long for the meeces to make a new home. I've found dead mice in the bottom of air filter housings before now. If that doesn't bring anything to light then fuel filter would be next in line. Diesels need three things to run well: air and plenty of it, fuel at high pressure and good compression.

One other possibility (although I'm not sure the 2.8 idtd has one) is the throttle valve, I had the one on my work Ducato (2.0 litre JTD) play up not long ago, the ball and socket on the operating linkage had worn away (209,000 miles) and the butterfly valve was simply getting sucked shut.
D.
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Thanks for the advice Dave. Will do some checking tomorrow if it stops raining long enough.....

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That wastegate is sitting right behind and to the rear of the engine block.
You get to it, either; by putting the 'van on a hoist or lifting one side of the 'van (Don't trust a jack. I did ours by putting the whole van on top of a pair of Fiammi Ramps and engaging first gear, applying the handbrake and chocking the wheels)
You can then crawl under and you will see that piece of kit as per the photo.
Give it a good seeing to lubrication wise and apply a pair of mole grips to the 'cam' end moving it in a left/right motion, you will see the rod move into and out of the vacuum at the other end.

Having said that, I don't think it's that as the classic signs of a stuck wastegate is that the engine management light comes on when keeping momentum up a hill at about 2700rpm. On some vans it's accompanied with a loss of power at that point but on others (mine included) the light came on causing panic for the occupants. Having done the above however, the van does operate more efficiently. Good luck.
 
I got called out to a range rover with similar problems a few years ago.
The rubber airbox to turbo pipe had delaminated.
The hose is made up of an inner skin, then braided reinforcement then an outer skin...all bonded together.
The outer 'tube' looked fine but the inner 'tube' had come away from the braid and outer and was collapsing partially blocking off the airflow...not enough to be drastic but enough to make it run like a bag of rubbish.
Temporarily removed the pipe and it ran fine.
Didn't drive it minus pipe but just revving with bonnet up proved it was ok.
 
I know people say there's no difference but ours feels sluggish when we use supermarket fuel all the time, but seems ok if using petrol station fuel.
This just my experience.
 
Well, just spent an hour or so looking for mice, birds, eggs, squirrels and nesting materials. (Sadly) nothing found. I took off the turbo pipework and realigned the hose fittings, they were not up tight with the housing but were tight anyway. One large jubilee clip took over an hour to release as whoever fitted it managed to get the screw head in a very difficult position and had rounded the Philips screw head in the process. Of the two hoses, that was the oldest with signs of delamination on the inside. The other seems to have been changed when I thought I had a turbo problem 10 years ago, turned out the hose had come off. On the "top" hose there were signs of engine oil residue, not gallons of it, just a film of oil inside the hose....Is that normal?
Anyway, all back together but have not tried it out under load as yet. Could not find the "Watergate" valve some of you have been talking about, apart from impeachments and troubles in my White House, what does it do?
Thanks for the continuing help, Elle is feeling loved and cared for!!
 
As you have found delamination replace the hose as this is likely your issue and it won't get better. Oil residue in the boost pipes depending on quantity is normal, personally I would remove the inter cooler and empty out any oil then flush the system with a suitable solvent.

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