Diesels? For those who know, to educate one who doesn't! (1 Viewer)

[tacr2man]

What difference is all this change in doing away with carbon fuels going to make to the planet and global warming???? How will we as a little island make a difference ????? The USA, Russia, China and India along with other countries don't give a S%%T about global warming and still use coal and other carbon fuels so how is this little island going to make a difference???????

If they all got together it aint going to make a difference , so why worry about us , the "political" consensus is all that matters .
Probably Neanderthals will end up having a longer run than Homo sapiens.

 

[ambulancekidd]

So where will the hydrogen come from?

There's a plentiful supply in the Sun but that's a bit of an unlikely source.

The other obvious place is water, where the hydrogen is combined chemically with oxygen. They can be separated by passing an electric current through it.

And where will that electricity come from? Perhaps Drax?

Gordon

Electricity is notoriously difficult to store, but at night wind & hydro generation just goes to waste. My area has one river where hydro power is taken of 5 different times & this infrastructure has been working since the 1930s.
This cheap electricity could easily be used to make hydrogen, simples & with hydrogen powered cars, you drive 300 or 400 miles, refuel & go again, so its the fuel of tomorrow as it works exactly like the fuel of today!

Electric vehicles are becoming really interesting (I never thought I'd say that) & @Grommit is the man to ask & follow into this minefield & he takes the time to explain to us heathens how it all works.

As has already been said here, governments shy away from some renewables as they are addicted to the taxes raised by fossil fuels etc.

 

[Malcolm Bolt]

Aha,an 18 year old Pug engine. Prime candidate for Bio diesel. My old VW 1.9 was run on the stuff from new. Zero emissions at MOT time.

When the price of diesel shot up a few years ago and vegetable oil was cheaper I used to run my Kia Sorrento on LIDL's veg oil. Ran really well shen engine was hot. Best on a long run when I could start it up on an almost empty tank of diesel, top up with bottles of veg oil, run until almost empty then fill to a quarter with diesel again just to ensure an easy start in the morning. I am sure that with some sort of pre-heater I could have run on veg oil all the time.

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[Malcolm Bolt]

I heard recently that the problem of ad blue not being effective at low temperatures was near to being solved so that nitrous oxide emissions (that are a very local problem) would be greatly reduced all the time. No doubt the focus then will rightly move back to the much more serious global problem of carbon monoxide emissions when petrol engines will be hammered once again.

 

[tboy]

[QUOTE="ambulancekidd, As has already been said here, governments shy away from some renewables as they are addicted to the taxes raised by fossil fuels etc.[/QUOTE]

Do you not think, what they lose will go on , the new fuel. remember north sea gas Gov said cheap heating cooking
did we get it ??

 

[Snowbird]

When the price of diesel shot up a few years ago and vegetable oil was cheaper I used to run my Kia Sorrento on LIDL's veg oil. Ran really well shen engine was hot. Best on a long run when I could start it up on an almost empty tank of diesel, top up with bottles of veg oil, run until almost empty then fill to a quarter with diesel again just to ensure an easy start in the morning. I am sure that with some sort of pre-heater I could have run on veg oil all the time.

With 100% bio you can run all the time without any form of pre heater. Only in very cold weather do you need a gallon or so of diesel in the tank.

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[Malcolm Bolt]

With 100% bio you can run all the time without any form of pre heater. Only in very cold weather do you need a gallon or so of diesel in the tank.

Yea Dave but I was very much attracted to the price of LIDL veg oil at that time. No longer so as with the demand of Bio diesel the price of veg oil shot up.

 

[Snowbird]

Yea Dave but I was very much attracted to the price of LIDL veg oil at that time. No longer so as with the demand of Bio diesel the price of veg oil shot up.

Supermarkets are not daft. When they see Joe Blogs with a trolley full of cheap rapeseed oil walking across the carpark they start to wonder what he wants it for. They were emptying the shelves faster than they could fill them at Costco and Macro.

 

[SpeedyDux]

Although it is plentiful and the end product of the fuel cycle is only water, the problem as I see it with hydrogen in the real world of transport would be safety.

Consider all the petrol or diesel cars that catch fire even with current supposedly advanced technology. Hydrogen cars would be potential bombs. How many explosions in urban areas will it take for them to be banned?

Petrol is also explosive in the wrong circumstances but at least doesn't need to be stored under high pressure. It's asking too much of the sloppy automotive industry to make hydrogen powered cars 100% safe. It's a much bigger technical challenge for the duration of the economic life of a car than (say) even LPG as a fuel.

OTOH, diesel fuel is quite difficult to ignite. That makes it a very safe fuel for vehicles that are manufactured and maintained to somewhat mediocre standards, or whose maintenance is neglected completely. Euro 6 emissions is probably as good as it will get without ridiculous add-ons to engines that will be more trouble than they are worth, so until the EV battery cost falls to affordable levels we should stick with current diesels. Tell the politicians to stop giving in to pressure from the eco-zealots.

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[autorouter]

And, finally, is there any way I can make my 1.9td Pug run cleaner that will please Mr Gove?

Throw in a can of diesel engine cleaner, then make a sticker saying it's the primary phase of a projected public-private partnership initiative to phase out all polluting vehicles by 2050.

Works every time. Give him a week and he'll forget about it and have some new bee in his bonnet.

 

[tonyidle]

Although it is plentiful and the end product of the fuel cycle is only water, the problem as I see it with hydrogen in the real world of transport would be safety.

Consider all the petrol or diesel cars that catch fire even with current supposedly advanced technology. Hydrogen cars would be potential bombs. How many explosions in urban areas will it take for them to be banned?

Petrol is also explosive in the wrong circumstances but at least doesn't need to be stored under high pressure. It's asking too much of the sloppy automotive industry to make hydrogen powered cars 100% safe. It's a much bigger technical challenge for the duration of the economic life of a car than (say) even LPG as a fuel.

OTOH, diesel fuel is quite difficult to ignite. That makes it a very safe fuel for vehicles that are manufactured and maintained to somewhat mediocre standards, or whose maintenance is neglected completely. Euro 6 emissions is probably as good as it will get without ridiculous add-ons to engines that will be more trouble than they are worth, so until the EV battery cost falls to affordable levels we should stick with current diesels. Tell the politicians to stop giving in to pressure from the eco-zealots.

Petrol is stored in a very thin sheet steel tank or in one made of plastic. The pressure needed to store hydrogen (or to a lesser extent LPG) means that the storage vessel is much more robust and very unlikely to rupture in an accident. Petrol and LPG vapours hang around long enough to create a dangerous fireball that will ignite surrounding material. Hydrogen disperses more rapidly than any vapourising liquid fuel which will also reduce the risk.

 

[Gromett]

The USA, Russia, China and India along with other countries don't give a S%%T about global warming

Erm, I think you might want to fact check that. Russia is not a very big component of global warming gases. America is moving in the right direction purely through economics. China and India are pushing the fastest of any country on this stuff. In fact China and india are putting us to shame.

Electricity is notoriously difficult to store, but at night wind & hydro generation just goes to waste.

That is where grid scale storage come in. We have a number of installs already and more on the way. What they do though currently is throttle back the gas generators etc and even shut down coal powered ones. It doesn't just go to waste. The grid has to be finely balanced between supply and demand or the frequency starts to drift. If it drifts too much you can get a cascade failure..

We are at the early stages of this change over, but believe me when I say, there are practical solutions to all the issues, it just needs a bit of government will power and the economics to go in the right direction. Both these things are happening and I expect the change over to happen even faster in the future.

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[ambulancekidd]

With 100% bio you can run all the time without any form of pre heater. Only in very cold weather do you need a gallon or so of diesel in the tank.

My old 300TDI Discovery ran beautifully on Bio fuel, in fact when towing the caravan I preferred the way the power was delivered & it never harmed that jalopy in any way.
Not tried our year 2000 Peugeot Boxer based Autosleeper on it....yet.....

 

[Gromett]

The USA, Russia, China and India along with other countries don't give a S%%T about global warming and still use coal and other carbon fuels

Sorry this just popped up and thought you might find it interesting.
1Gw of offshore power contracts signed in the U.S.
https://arstechnica.com/science/201...e-wind-is-coming-1-2-gw-in-contracts-awarded/

And this about coal.
https://climatenexus.org/climate-is...ing-the-decline-of-coal-in-the-united-states/

And China is installing 10-20GW of wind power per year,

 

[Malcolm Bolt]

With 100% bio you can run all the time without any form of pre heater. Only in very cold weather do you need a gallon or so of diesel in the tank.

Do you reckon the older diesels ie most poluting, like the Bio?

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[John Mee]

I had an old Land Rover and ran it on veg oil, till they put the price up to match diesel. By Bio diesel, do you mean veg oil, or is there something else? Is it a viable alternative cost and availability wise?
Is it any cleaner?

Do you think there will come a time when they say older vehicles will have to be scrapped, or will they just let them die a natural death. Motorhomes tend to be kept on the road until they become too expensive to repair. Mine is 18 yrs old, still going strong and still worth a few bob. How would they take me off the road? Would it be by tax on fuel, in which case all diesels will suffer. Would they have a sell by date when diesels will have to be scrapped? What are they going to do?

 

[Manxcat]

JM, well put questions.

Normally I would be looking to replace my van now (4 year old Globecar). But I am looking at waiting another 4 years to see how the situation will pan out. I do not want to find I have a 50k van which no one is prepared to buy in a few years time.

 

[gus-lopez]

Why are diesels apparently so hard to make clean? Surely there must be a way to take out the particulates and Nitrous Oxide. Do power power station chimneys not have anti pollution filters? My Autocruise Vista is 18 yrs old. How long will it be before I am told I have to scrap it, or only drive it when the wind is blowing in the right direction? If I scrap it, what do I buy, assuming I win the lottery? Is there any viable alternative fuel to diesel? What is the comparative pollution cost of building a new van compared to keeping my perfectly usable van on the road? And, finally, is there any way I can make my 1.9td Pug run cleaner that will please Mr Gove?

Simple use , sunflower/rapeseed/any cooking oil. All older diesels will run on any type of hydrocarbon & with a pug 1900 you should have the bullet proof pump that can handle it ,unlike anything newer .

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[DanielFord]

It's even worse than that. Electrolyses is the most inefficient way to get Hydrogen. What they actually do is use Steam reforming of hydrocarbons usually natural gas..

Sorry @Gromett got to call you out on that one, that is not how a fuel cell works. This is the science behind them, no electrolysis is involved.
http://americanhistory.si.edu/fuelcells/basics.htm

 

[Snowbird]

Do you reckon the older diesels ie most poluting, like the Bio?

I ran all my Merc and VW engined vehicles on Bio, including the one you now have, hence the long range fuel tank in the garage. At MOT time the mechanic used to think there was a problem with his machine until I told him it was a bio burner. For some strange reason the government would not recognise bio as a non pollutant and would not give road tax discounts. Nothing in it for them I suppose.

 

[Snowbird]

I had an old Land Rover and ran it on veg oil, till they put the price up to match diesel. By Bio diesel, do you mean veg oil, or is there something else? Is it a viable alternative cost and availability wise?
Is it any cleaner?

Do you think there will come a time when they say older vehicles will have to be scrapped, or will they just let them die a natural death. Motorhomes tend to be kept on the road until they become too expensive to repair. Mine is 18 yrs old, still going strong and still worth a few bob. How would they take me off the road? Would it be by tax on fuel, in which case all diesels will suffer. Would they have a sell by date when diesels will have to be scrapped? What are they going to do?

Biodiesel is completely different to straight vegetable oil. Google is your friend and there is lots of information out there on production methods. You are allowed to produce 2000 lts per year tax free for your own use. Thats a lot of miles at 25 MPG.

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[Malcolm Bolt]

Biodiesel is completely different to straight vegetable oil. Google is your friend and there is lots of information out there on production methods. You are allowed to produce 2000 lts per year tax free for your own use. Thats a lot of miles at 25 MPG.

Ha Ha

I started that game. Got a supply of cooking oil, got the 45 gal drum with heater and pump. Got the chemicals and followed the instructions to the letter. Well probably not exactly to the letter cos I ended up with a 45 gal drum of something like lard. They won't even take it at the local tip.

Still got the kit but I probably need lessons.

 

[Gromett]

Sorry @Gromett got to call you out on that one, that is not how a fuel cell works. This is the science behind them, no electrolysis is involved.
http://americanhistory.si.edu/fuelcells/basics.htm

And you would be wrong. I fully understand how fuel cells work.
If you READ what i said. I was talking about where the hydrogen comes from used by the fuel cell. I never said that the fuel cells used electrolyses.

 

[Emmit]

It's the only way to go that makes any sense. I do chuckle under my breath when people in my area wax lyrical about their "emission free" Nissan Leaf, and then they go home and plug it in to a power point supplied by Drax (a coke burning power plant).
Hydrogen fuel cells are frankly the only answer that makes any sense!

I agree with your sentiments but;
"Drax power station in Yorkshire uses wood pellets to create electricity. The move from coal was considered to be environmentally friendly. But far from cutting emissions, change is actually increasing them. In turn, it is adding millions of pounds to Britain's electricity bills."

So it doesn't use Coke but what it does do increases the emissions.

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[DanielFord]

And you would be wrong. I fully understand how fuel cells work.
If you READ what i said. I was talking about where the hydrogen comes from used by the fuel cell. I never said that the fuel cells used electrolyses.

Ooops! Should've gone to Specsavers.

Interesting read I found though, there's talk of interesting ways to harvest hydrogen. Sounded promising!

 

[Gromett]

Ooops! Should've gone to Specsavers.

Interesting read I found though, there's talk of interesting ways to harvest hydrogen. Sounded promising!

Hydrogen does not really naturally occur in nature in a meaningful way. So no matter how we get it we have to split a molecule containing hydrogen. It takes a very specific amount of energy to do this and this sets the lower bound and therefore the maximum efficiency of the conversion process. Li batteries have a much higher efficiency for storage. Once the charge speed issues have been resolved then hydrogen will start to look extremely expensive, inefficient and dangerous by comparison...

 

[DanielFord]

Hydrogen does not really naturally occur in nature in a meaningful way. So no matter how we get it we have to split a molecule containing hydrogen. It takes a very specific amount of energy to do this and this sets the lower bound and therefore the maximum efficiency of the conversion process. Li batteries have a much higher efficiency for storage. Once the charge speed issues have been resolved then hydrogen will start to look extremely expensive, inefficient and dangerous by comparison...

Storage perhaps, but they are only storing power harvested elsewhere. I don't see that as a solution.
I find it incredible that most hydrogen appears to be scraped off of Methane, which leaves Carbon, and then a big headache! Clean generation of power is the answer, not transferring the emissions from one place to another, which is essentially what the electric cars currently do.

I must try to find that article, it was fascinating. There is also the option of using our existing nuclear plants to scrape hydrogen off of other compounds.

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[Gromett]

Storage perhaps, but they are only storing power harvested elsewhere. I don't see that as a solution.
I find it incredible that most hydrogen appears to be scraped off of Methane, which leaves Carbon, and then a big headache! Clean generation of power is the answer, not transferring the emissions from one place to another, which is essentially what the electric cars currently do..

You have lost me here. Petrol, Diesel, Hydrogen and Li batteries are all energy storage mechanisms...
It is not possible to generate enough power within the footprint of a car from either solar or wind so you absolutely MUST have a storage mechanism.
Hydrogen is the worst of them as it pernicious, dangerous, and requires huge energy expense to create not to mention the CO2 released in the process.
Li is the best because it is efficient, clean and safe (relatively).

If you charge an Li battery from solar, You have a round trip efficiency of around 80% from panel to wheel.
If you use that same solar to 'strip' hydrogen, cool and compress it, ship it to the distribution stations, then using a fuel cell to convert it back to electricity to drive the motors god only knows what the real world fuel efficiency is from panel to wheel.

 

[Gromett]

Storage perhaps, but they are only storing power harvested elsewhere. I don't see that as a solution.
I find it incredible that most hydrogen appears to be scraped off of Methane, which leaves Carbon, and then a big headache! Clean generation of power is the answer, not transferring the emissions from one place to another, which is essentially what the electric cars currently do.

I must try to find that article, it was fascinating. There is also the option of using our existing nuclear plants to scrape hydrogen off of other compounds.

Almost all hydrogen is made today from what is known as ‘steam reforming’, usually of methane (the main constituent of natural gas). A stream of gas is mixed with high temperature steam in the presence of a catalyst. The eventual output of the process is a mixture of CO2 and hydrogen. The valuable hydrogen is collected and the CO2 vented to the atmosphere. If my calculations are correct, the hydrogen produced today through the steam reforming process is resulting in approximately 500 million tonnes of emissions a year, or well over 1% of global GHGs

Interesting article. Not sure I agree with all his conclusions.
https://www.carboncommentary.com/bl...her-building-block-for-the-low-carbon-economy

 

[Manxcat]

It does seem logical that battery power is the way to go. With all the wind and solar coming on stream then again charge banks of batteries when surplus.

I do not understand why so many seem to be petrol/diesel lovers. If it works and in economical then embrace it. I am looking forward to my first electric van.

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