Cars suitable for towing and various questions (1 Viewer)

Glandwr

Banned
Jul 10, 2014
1,057
3,301
the Berwyn Mountains
Funster No
32,350
MH
Hymer S740
Exp
since 2009
Hi what cars do you tow? And can anyone recommend a suitable light 4X4? I believe that some cars do not lubricate parts of their transmission while being towed? Where is the best place to look secondhand? I believe that that here I would need to dislay the van number on the back, yet notice that in Europe the car reg number seems sufficient. Any other tips also appreciated. I have to stay quite light as althought the manual version of my van can tow 2000kg the auto that I have suggests a max of 750KG.



Many thanks Dick
 

mjltigger

Free Member
Nov 12, 2014
1,619
2,672
Trowbridge
Funster No
34,213
MH
Autotrail Dakota Max
Exp
2012
This topic is discussed a lot. In view of what you ask regarding lubrication and ref plates wouldn't you be better off with a trailer?
 
Jul 29, 2011
2,708
22,583
Urmston, Manchester
Funster No
17,549
MH
Former owner.
Exp
June 2012
If 750kgs is the diff between GVW and GTW you are going to struggle to tow.
I had the same problem with my first MH and ended up with a citoen 2cv on a custom built trailer that came in just below the weight.
 

mikebeaches

LIFE MEMBER
Feb 22, 2010
5,416
8,657
Bristol
Funster No
10,377
MH
Rapido V68 Van Conversion
Exp
Since 2009
Yes, I think 750kg would be a serious problem if you want to tow a 4x4. The lightest Fiat Panda 4x4 weighs 1050kg.

Can't believe the van is only rated to tow that much, even with an auto box?

Mike
 
OP
OP
Glandwr

Glandwr

Banned
Jul 10, 2014
1,057
3,301
the Berwyn Mountains
Funster No
32,350
MH
Hymer S740
Exp
since 2009
Van is a Sprinter 616 gross 5990kg in train 6740kg. HOWEVER payload is a massive 1400kg. As I say the book says that with the manual box train wt would be 7990kg. Does anyone see why I couldn't run say 250kg less than full payload and add it to the tow wt?

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
Aug 18, 2014
23,961
135,805
Lorca,Murcia,Spain
Funster No
32,898
MH
Transit PVC
Exp
16 years since restarting
Van is a Sprinter 616 gross 5990kg in train 6740kg. HOWEVER payload is a massive 1400kg. As I say the book says that with the manual box train wt would be 7990kg. Does anyone see why I couldn't run say 250kg less than full payload and add it to the tow wt?
Yes it is illegal.
It is probably because the auto box would not be able to cope. Most vehicles with an auto box have a small oil cooler in the bottom of the normal radiator. If specified for towing from new then normally a completely seperate oil cooler is fitted in addition to the standard one to allow the gearbox to maintain its optimum working temperature & not over heat.
 

pappajohn

LIFE MEMBER
Aug 26, 2007
43,435
50,316
Dark side of the moon
Funster No
172
Exp
Since 2005
What you need to be looking at is the total train weight on the VIN plate.
the difference between the actual roadgoing weight and the train weight is your towing weight.

Quite possibly the recommended 750kg limit could be extended with the fitting of a gearox oil cooler.....though as said,750kg does sound extremely low even for an auto.

My car is an auto (torque converter, not automated clutch) and has a train weight of 4350kg.....the cars gross is 2350kg
 

haganap

LIFE MEMBER
Dec 5, 2007
12,790
26,807
planet earth
Funster No
974
MH
Niesman+Bischoff 79e
Exp
I'm an oldbie MH number 10
The Panda 4x4 is not an option- They can not be Aframed and towed for some mechanical reason according to Towtal.
 
May 16, 2014
819
1,076
Ammanford
Funster No
31,503
MH
Dethleffs Trend
Exp
since May 2014
As Pappajohn says (in a different way) the gross weight of your vehicle is the maximum that the towing unit (i.e. your motorhome) can be. The train weight is the maximum weight that can be transmitted to the road surface by all of the wheels of the unit combination (i.e. the total weight of your Motorhome and its contents (including driver and passenger) and the total weight of the towed vehicle and its contents). You do not take the gross weight away from the train weight to arrive at the weight of the trailer.
 
OP
OP
Glandwr

Glandwr

Banned
Jul 10, 2014
1,057
3,301
the Berwyn Mountains
Funster No
32,350
MH
Hymer S740
Exp
since 2009
So you are saying that if the van actually weighs say 5500kg that is irrelevant if it plated at 5990kg for calculation of the actual train wt? That it is the plated wt of all axles rather than actual wt that the law would look at?



Dick

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

Trikeman

Free Member
Aug 22, 2012
1,649
3,095
Wilds of Ceredigion.
Funster No
22,516
MH
AT 634 Apache.
Exp
Since 2011.
Hi, researched this to death before we opted for a Peugeot 107 5 door and a Towtal over-run braked 'A' frame - excellent. (y) Towtal make a great rear number plate frame which you clip out and then clip in a spare MoHo number plate - also supplied was a 'long vehicle' inc reflective triangles roll out rear window 'film'.

Not 4x4 though as I could find no 4x4 that comes anywhere near the train weight.

Hope it helps,

Regards

Trikeman. ;)
 

tinkering

Free Member
Feb 25, 2009
222
1,105
dorset
Funster No
5,741
MH
C class
Exp
Since 1972
You are getting your weights mixed up Dave [easy to do]

If you pull a Unbraked Trailer [single or double axle] Gross trailer weight of 750 kg .

If you pull a Braked Trailer you could pull a Max of 2000kg ,providing that your MAX Gross Train weight does not exceed
7990kgs

Saying that you will be lucky to find a single axle trailer that will carry carry 2000kg
 
May 16, 2014
819
1,076
Ammanford
Funster No
31,503
MH
Dethleffs Trend
Exp
since May 2014
hello Dick

What I am saying is this:

A vehicle will have a gross weight and a train weight. The gross weight may be 5,990. The train weight may be 7,500 kgs. What this means is that when DVSA/Trading Standards or the police weigh your vehicle the total weight of the (in your case) motorhome cannot exceed 5,990 kgs. When said authorities weight the motorhome and anything towed by it then the total weight put through all of the wheels of that outfit onto the road cannot exceed 7,500 kgs. None of the individual axle weights of any part of the outfit can exceed their permitted weights either. All weights will be shown on the vehicles plate which you will find either under the bonnet near the bonnet catch, on the back wall of the engine compartment or on the door frame.

The authorities will compare the actual weight of each axle, gross and train weight against those found on the vehicle plate and, only if they are exceeded, is there a problem. Normally DVSA will allow a tolerance of 5% or a tonne before they start to get too interested.

Note, if you are found to be overweight, you can be prohibited from movement until you reduce all weights to those on the vehicle plate AND prosecuted or offered a Graduated Fixed Penalty
 

Shovelheadrob

Free Member
Jul 13, 2014
60
111
Funster No
32,399
MH
Soon to be 5th wheeler
Exp
On & off for 20 years
As above, but also check your V5 as there may be listed a "Technical permissible maximum towable mass of the trailer" which would add a further restriction.
 
Apr 27, 2008
11,860
14,118
Eastbourne East Sussex
Funster No
2,327
MH
Hymer low profile
Exp
Since 1972
Although the opposite of what most people do, if the payload is more than you need you could downrate the GVW and then whatever you take off the GVW will be added to what you can tow, as the train weight remains constant.
Would have to do it officially through DVLA though, you can't just take a few crates of beer out.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

DanielFord

Free Member
Jun 1, 2013
3,020
3,086
Funster No
26,287
Maybe I missed it, why did you want a 4x4? I would say that would severely limit you choices, and 4x4's as a general rule cannot be towed with all 4 wheels down, it'll destroy the diffs I believe.
I would have thought a little 4 seater, on a braked trailer would be the way to go? Saw someone towing a tiny Mitsubishi the other day, that had 4 seats, couldn't see what model it was though.
 
OP
OP
Glandwr

Glandwr

Banned
Jul 10, 2014
1,057
3,301
the Berwyn Mountains
Funster No
32,350
MH
Hymer S740
Exp
since 2009
hello Dick

What I am saying is this:

A vehicle will have a gross weight and a train weight. The gross weight may be 5,990. The train weight may be 7,500 kgs. What this means is that when DVSA/Trading Standards or the police weigh your vehicle the total weight of the (in your case) motorhome cannot exceed 5,990 kgs. When said authorities weight the motorhome and anything towed by it then the total weight put through all of the wheels of that outfit onto the road cannot exceed 7,500 kgs. None of the individual axle weights of any part of the outfit can exceed their permitted weights either. All weights will be shown on the vehicles plate which you will find either under the bonnet near the bonnet catch, on the back wall of the engine compartment or on the door frame.

The authorities will compare the actual weight of each axle, gross and train weight against those found on the vehicle plate and, only if they are exceeded, is there a problem. Normally DVSA will allow a tolerance of 5% or a tonne before they start to get too interested.

Note, if you are found to be overweight, you can be prohibited from movement until you reduce all weights to those on the vehicle plate AND prosecuted or offered a Graduated Fixed Penalty
So what you are saying is that if I am running below my gross wt. the amount I can tow increases upto my max train wt. ? provided no axle excedes its limit which was my original question.
 
OP
OP
Glandwr

Glandwr

Banned
Jul 10, 2014
1,057
3,301
the Berwyn Mountains
Funster No
32,350
MH
Hymer S740
Exp
since 2009
reasons -
Maybe I missed it, why did you want a 4x4? I would say that would severely limit you choices, and 4x4's as a general rule cannot be towed with all 4 wheels down, it'll destroy the diffs I believe.
I would have thought a little 4 seater, on a braked trailer would be the way to go? Saw someone towing a tiny Mitsubishi the other day, that had 4 seats, couldn't see what model it was though.
It will be my main vehcile at home and I live where a 4x4 is very disirable. I would also want to use it on piste in Motocco
 
Jul 29, 2011
2,708
22,583
Urmston, Manchester
Funster No
17,549
MH
Former owner.
Exp
June 2012
reasons -

It will be my main vehcile at home and I live where a 4x4 is very disirable. I would also want to use it on piste in Motocco

I never drive when i'm piste, too dangerous.




Sorry, couldnt resist.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
Aug 18, 2014
23,961
135,805
Lorca,Murcia,Spain
Funster No
32,898
MH
Transit PVC
Exp
16 years since restarting
So what you are saying is that if I am running below my gross wt. the amount I can tow increases upto my max train wt. ? provided no axle excedes its limit which was my original question.


No.

My vehicle has an unladen weight of 2080kgs
It is allowed a maximum weight of 2840kgs.
It has a train weight (MTM) of 4840kgs
i.e. a braked trailer can have a total combined weight of 2000kgs (trailer & load)
If I am in the vehicle alone & it weighs 2160kgs this does not mean that I can add the unused 680kgs to the 2000kgs of the trailer.
The trailer can only ever weigh 2000kgs total.
reasons -

It will be my main vehcile at home and I live where a 4x4 is very disirable. I would also want to use it on piste in Motocco
Then you'll definitely need a trailer as an A frame is illegal here.
 

pappajohn

LIFE MEMBER
Aug 26, 2007
43,435
50,316
Dark side of the moon
Funster No
172
Exp
Since 2005
As i understand.......

If the max weight of the prime mover is at or below its gross weight and the trailers max weight is at or below its gross weight VOSA wont do anything providing the combined weight is at or below the stated train weight.

If your van is plated at 5000kg and has a train of 7500kg you can still tow a trailer weighing 3500kg providing the vans actual weight at the roadside is 4000kg.

The only time this doesnt apply is to a 7500kg van driven on a C1 licence restricted to 8250kg.
in that instance the 750kg trailer allowance is an absolute limit....but that is a licence issue, not a train weight issue.
 

tinkering

Free Member
Feb 25, 2009
222
1,105
dorset
Funster No
5,741
MH
C class
Exp
Since 1972
Google Brain James Trailors Dick

Pappajon

The 750 kg limit is for Unbraked trailors
 

pappajohn

LIFE MEMBER
Aug 26, 2007
43,435
50,316
Dark side of the moon
Funster No
172
Exp
Since 2005
Google Brain James Trailors Dick

Pappajon

The 750 kg limit is for Unbraked trailors
Not in the instance i posted.

A C1 driving licence holder with restriction 107, driving a plated 7500kg van restricts trailers to 750kg......that is an absolute limit If the van is plated at 7500kg, even if the actual roadside weight of the van is less than 7500kg....ie: actual roadside weight 6500kg, the trailer limit is still 750kg...not 1750kg.

But as i said....thats a licence issue.
 

DanielFord

Free Member
Jun 1, 2013
3,020
3,086
Funster No
26,287
reasons -

It will be my main vehcile at home and I live where a 4x4 is very disirable. I would also want to use it on piste in Motocco
As you may have been guessing, the 4x4 thing is almost certainly going to be an issue, the gearboxes and diffs add a lot of weight to a car. It severely limits you choice, and you can't tow them on a-frames.
Other than the Fiat Panda, I cannot think of a single other car that is 4x4 that is small enough. It would be easier finding a 4x4 that could tow your motorhome to be honest, I can think of lot's of them!
Anyway, I am being silly now, there are many places where it is desirable to have a 4x4, Chelsea leaps to mind. There aren't many places where it is necessary to have a 4x4. Even on piste, snow chains on a front drive would probably out perform a Suzuki Jeep in the slippery stuff!
Oh and I looked it up, the Mitsubishi I saw the other day was a Mitsubishi I, road tax exempt, 0.7 litre turbo engine, and 4 seats, you can pick them up for about £2,500 now! Cheaper than a Smart!

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

pappajohn

LIFE MEMBER
Aug 26, 2007
43,435
50,316
Dark side of the moon
Funster No
172
Exp
Since 2005
Depends what you want from a 4 x 4 ?

Any of the VW/Audi syncro are 4wd......Golf, quattro......if any still exist.

Suzuki SJ410 were just under 997kg....mine had a logbook gross of 3500kg.?...2.5 tonne payload :LOL: :LOL:
 

DanielFord

Free Member
Jun 1, 2013
3,020
3,086
Funster No
26,287
You need C1E to pull bigger trailers, which I have. Allows you to pull trailers over 750kg but not exceeding the weight of the vehicle, and max combined weight of 12,000kg (y)

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

Join us or log in to post a reply.

To join in you must be a member of MotorhomeFun

Join MotorhomeFun

Join us, it quick and easy!

Log in

Already a member? Log in here.

Latest journal entries

Funsters who are viewing this thread

Back
Top