115BHP or 130BHP

[Kannon Fodda]

Good afternoon knowledgeable people

I'm in the market for a shiny new panel van conversion having decided I need a major step up from the tent. It's just for me, but I do like a few mod cons so I'm looking at a Hi-Top, end lounge layout, but also conscious that I don't want to be too big, both for parking up, and general maneuverability. Having traipsed around the NEC the Auto Trail 540SE at 5.4m long seems to fit the bill.

My challenge is the engine. Fiat's default size is now a 2.0 115BHP unit. For £900 (or thereabouts) this could be replaced with a 2.3 130BHP unit. I can find very little information in my searches as to whether people are happy, or otherwise.

People on the NEC stands said the 115BHP would be fine, but then most PVCs on display (albeit mostly 6m or longer models) had 130BHP engines. There doesn't seem to be much comment on any review sites for this motorhome or any other manufacturer's which all seem to have driven the 130BHP or greater lumps in larger PVCs. But then Fiat's website and even Auto Trail suggest the 130BHP is the popular size?

No doubt the 115bhp will get me there. It's not as if one has a motorhome to break land speed records so general motorway cruising of 60-65mph is probably the norm, and going along at 70 (or in a moment of madness more) will hit fuel use. But what about the longer motorway uphill drags (there seem to be a couple on the M3 Winchester - Southampton area), let alone if I decide to do something a bit windy around Wales, or the edge of nowhere of West Ireland.

If money was no object then I'd have the 150bhp, with an auto gearbox. But there is a budget. Even so this vehicle will be costing more than I can sensibly afford and it will have to last me many years and trips. So will I really regret only having 115bhp, and do I really need 130bhp?

 

[MichaelT]

Not much choice in the voting options... For me bigger is better, we have the 150 with auto box and it is great.

 

[Kannon Fodda]

Arrgh the poll thing didn't complete, and I don't think I can edit

 

[WWP]

Definately the 130 for me,or as you say 150 auto,be worth stretching if you could

 

[Lenny HB]

Neither, get the 150, it has a variable vane turbo performs so much better on mountain roads.

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[Minxy]

130bhp for sure, the 115 will be underpowered even in a short PVC, 130bhp should be more than sufficient.

 

[Crazylegs]

130bhp for sure, the 115 will be underpowered even in a short PVC, 130bhp should be more than sufficient.

I have a work 110 ps high top transit that Is running close to it’s full weight as the load compartment is racked and shelved with all that I need to do my work. My Transit will happily maintain any speed I choose, so whilst more power is always nice, in a panel van up to 3500 kgs 115 ps is perfectly sufficient. Other makes of van may well be less lively.
Perhaps more importantly the op should check which engine of the two has the best emissions by way of Euro classification.

 

[Richard n Ann]

I've driven vans all my working life. In the late 80's transits were slow, I think about 80bhp. But fast forward to the 2000s and much better.
I used to have an (06) 100bhp Vivaro work van. It wasn't under powered and pleasant to drive on the motorway. After that I had a (58)transit 115bhp, usually half full, it was fast with plenty of grunt. I remember when I picked it up empty, when you accelerated it pushed you back in the seat
Go for the 115bhp you'll be surprised

 

[Riverbankannie]

It seems that most people are voting for 130. This might mean that residual values could be affected if you opt for the 115.

 

[Wh05apk]

We had the 130hp 2.3 in an a class, and it's a coarse engine, and not a lot of power till 1800-2000 rpm, we now have a 2.3 180hp auto in a 5t+ van and it flies, much smoother, and the power is far lower, personally I would find a way to get the 150 which has similar characteristics and auto, if you are keeping it for a few years, the additional cost will be negligible.

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[Cheshirecat57]

115 will be absolutely fine
130 will be better ( more money)
150 would be great ( even more money)
180 will pull a house down ( that you will have to re-mortgage to pay for the 180)

 

[treetops1]

130bhp every time lol.

 

[Kannon Fodda]

Thanks for the input so far. A mixed bag of results. What is apparent is that you can't necessarily compare one manufacturer, with another, probably due to different gearing. Over the years each generation of engines is more efficient with generally better economy, less emissions, and more power for the same capacity. So what may have been a poor choice a few years ago, may well be fine today.

It's encouraging to see there is some approval for the 115bhp, I suspect you just have to work it harder in some situations, to maintain the sweet spot of revs to get the better torque, and perhaps that means a little bit more noise? Inevitably the bigger engines are better, but perhaps at the expense of a little less fuel economy and possibly higher emissions, but I am looking at a about the smaller "hi-top" sized conversion at 5.4m length with gross weight 3500, but running order mass around 2850, so there is a bit of headroom?

I don't think it is possible to establish expected emissions of the engine, or even fuel consumption in a motorhome, due to the wide variance of potential loads and build differences of different models. Fiat's own data at https://www.fiatcamper.com/en/product/engines seems only concerned that they are Euro 6 compliant and then with the power output.

Decisions Decisions.

 

[Lofty1]

130 and you can always chip it to 180 if you want to fly

 

[GPW]

130 and you can always chip it to 180 if you want to fly

I think Fiat are dropping the 115 and the base model will onw be 130, some something to think about.
Fiat chip their engines, 115-130 is a chip, the 150 gets a far better turbo and then the 170 is that one chipped by Fiat IIRC.

As noted the best may be Auto + 150 but you'll pay for it.
All the engines will get you there.

One thing I learned as I looked for a PVC (but applies to all purchases of all things!) is that once you've added up your options it's very important to use the price that you end up with to compare with other makes and models. It's easy to hit for example £53k on a van, but then if you look for all new vans currently for sale you'll find some of them were reduced to that price or less and some are specials or packages.

Often because the options are massivley complex and serve more as a way to deter customers a conversion firm will do special 'all inclusive' discounted upgrades such as the Harmony, Platinum, Plus, Elegance lines etc. Then you can spend a bit of time tracking down the 'Alpha dealer' that has the biggest and best relationship to the marque and get some good deals that way.

If you are not interested, need or willing to pay for automatic it's also worth looking at Citroen and Peugeot (rebadged Ducatos), for instance Peugeot is having some big discount promotions of their stuff that means you get a base vehicle with 160bhp, cruise, A/C. softlock sliding door etc for less than the same Fiat. As they've just started doing this you may have to wait or enquire when your model will arrive, but for the price you are looking at with the 540SE you may also want to chat with WildAx (who have open days) as they already use Citroen bases etc.

Good luck, and never be in a hurry, eventually the plan of exactly what you want will crystallize which will enable you to strike when there's a good sale or show of what you want.

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[Minxy]

Could I suggest you pay your subs for the forum (£15 for a year) and it will allow you to access some of the resources free including the excellent buyers guide that Jim wrote which to non-subscribers alone is £7.99.

 

[SuperMike]

115 or 130.

Ours is 330 at 4200rpm.

I know, I'm sorry, but the Very @old-mo TypeFellaPerson, will understand.

 

[GPW]

St Albans is just down the road from me!
How did you get 330 into a camper/motorhome - is this a Porsche engine in a Type2 ? Sounds awesome.

 

[Viennese]

Many vans can be built to order. I suggest you contact WildAx who will build you one on the platform you want.

 

[Lenny HB]

St Albans is just down the road from me!
How did you get 330 into a camper/motorhome - is this a Porsche engine in a Type2 ? Sounds awesome.

He's winding you up he has a gas gussling yank.

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[GPW]

Ah, one you have to switch off at the pump or you'll be there all day...

 

[Brucek]

It's encouraging to see there is some approval for the 115bhp, I suspect you just have to work it harder in some situations, to maintain the sweet spot of revs to get the better torque, and perhaps that means a little bit more noise? Inevitably the bigger engines are better, but perhaps at the expense of a little less fuel economy and possibly higher emissions, but I am looking at a about the smaller "hi-top" sized conversion at 5.4m length with gross weight 3500, but running order mass around 2850, so there is a bit of headroom?







We have a 2018 Autotrail V-line 540se the same as you are considering I think. We did opt for the 150bhp engine with comfortmatic, we have covered 4500mls, so not even properly run in yet but are averaging 29.9mpg. It runs extremely well and has plenty of grunt for overtaking and will cruise happily at 75 (not that we do that).

Weight wise, we had 3/4 tank of diesel a full gas tank and all of the equipment we normally carry, folding bikes, outside furniture, BBQ etc and the weighbridge measured -
Gross wt 2840kg
Front axle 1480kg
Rear axle 1360kg

This didn't include a driver or any clothes or food and all water tanks were empty.

 

[Brucek]

Sorry my reply is hidden in the post above. You will see if you 'expand' I am not clever enough to cut and paste it here

 

[GPW]

Another small wrinkle in the Fiat vs Peugeot/Citreon debate may be worth bearing in mind:

The Fiat is an EGR based emissions system and does not use Adblue. This means that you can expand to a 120 litre tank as a cheap build-time option and it may work on high Sulphur fuel like that found in Iran.

The Peugeot/Citreon used the Adblue option so you are stuck to a 90 litre tank and it may be fussy about high sulphur fuel. But no EGR to slowly block up your inlet manifold either.
I'm also told it has a smaller (and therefore cheaper!!) DPF and the MPG is slightly better than the Fiat but in practice I doubt you'd notice and those items were told to me by someone trying to sell a new van.

 

[Kannon Fodda]

Thanks for the suggestions.

I have looked at Wildax, and a few other brands too. Most seem quite a bit more money, at least on published pricing. No doubt there is a perceived difference in build quality, but by the time you add on the essential extras it's pushing prices well beyond my reach. But most significantly it is the layout of the van that is the limiting choice, unless a builder would do a bespoke thing at standard pricing.

Having climbed over, sat in and all sorts I know I only need the driver and passenger seat (provided that they can swivel) combined with rear lounge. I don't want a front dining area. The MH is for me alone and if I were lucky enough to find a companion that would still work. Most of the time I just want to pull up somewhere and get out the Kindle, so the front passenger seat where you can reach out to the kitchen worktop is sufficient for the cup of coffee. Even at home I am a bit of a slob with TV dinners, so a dining table use would be a rarity. Chances are the rear lounge would be almost permanantly made up as a bed whilst I am at rest. Once you fit that into the shorter length 5.4 ish van, rather than 6m the choice is limited And 6m won't work for me due to parking space. The majority of vehicles at 5.4m have front lounges.

The Auto Trail 540SE does, just, get into my budget, but even so it's a stretch. I've looked around for a while and am struggling to see anything modern, with all the toys I deem essential, (cruise control - it's actually the limited more important with all those average cameras aroud, DAB radio, reverse camera, rear lounge 2 seats, solar panel of good capacity, etc). I know I could upgrade some stuff, but ...

So the final purchase quandry, at least for me is the engine. I somehow doubt I'll be going to Iran anytime soon , but I have had dodgy fuel from the local supermarket which killed a Peugeot petrol engine on it's first outing from the dealer As modern engines, and indeed vehicles, get more powerful and efficient, they also introduce new complexity and things to go wrong. I daren't buy a modern diesel car as too many trips to my office are so short the DPF will bung up. But then after 6k miles from new my car's washers gave up apparently due to a blocked filter. So it's all a gamble. A MH will get used differently with long runs so hopefully, normal servicing should be sufficient to keep filters clear. And diesel for a MH is currently the only practical option for something of that size.

Residuals are important so the 130 BHP could well be prudent for around £900 on the road. But getting to the 150BHP is yet another £900, whilst the auto adds another £2000. Auto is attractive, as I've had that on cars since the early 2000's (Alfa's Selespeed, some Peugeot tiptronic thing, VW's DSG, Powershift plus whatever Toyota put on their Hybrids). But engine and auto on the MH is getting expensive. OK so I want to keep the van for many years so over lifetime this may not seem much, but I still need to have enough cash that I can actually afford to use the MH once I've got it.

So I think the picture is 115bhp will get me there, 130BHP is nicer, 150BHP would be comfortable whilst 180bhp is a luxury (and a 330 bhp thing would rip the front wheels off). The torque profiles of the 115 and 130 are similar, with a little more power overall in the 130, so at equivalent revs that doesn't work as hard and may be quieter? 150 offers a wider profile with better parts so will be less strained and quieter?

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[Minxy]

Another model to consider at 5.4 metres:



... and an even shorter one:

 

[Kannon Fodda]

Another model to consider at 5.4 metres:



... and an even shorter one:

Ah that smaller layout is a bit like some of the small Vantage models. But it's nice to see something being a bit different, problem is though the cooker position behind the passenger seat stops that having a swivel use. You could see the quality of some of the Vantage stuff at NEC, but it was also going to be an expense too far

 

[Minxy]

Ah that smaller layout is a bit like some of the small Vantage models. But it's nice to see something being a bit different, problem is though the cooker position behind the passenger seat stops that having a swivel use. You could see the quality of some of the Vantage stuff at NEC, but it was also going to be an expense too far

Not sure if it will still swivel (if a plate is fitted) - when I'm in our camper I often use the front seats with them facing each other, bum on one, feet on the other and have a lovely view out of the sliding door.

Globecar do a shortie camper too, there's the 540 which has a small half-dinette but there was another one which just had the 2 front seats and a table and was about 5m or so ... can't remember the model name though.

Not sure if you'd be interested in the Globecar Vario models as an alternative as there's one at 4.99m, similar in style to the original Hymer Exis.

Broken Link Removed

 

[GPW]

If you are going to leave the bed made up most of the time I'm confused why you don't want a rear fixed bed and dinette like the Weinsberg Carabus 5.4m ?
https://www.caravanguard.co.uk/news/weinsberg-carabus-541mq-getting-cara-ed-away-7916/

It's not got a wide table and the bathroom isn't huge but it's a decent van and dinettes are great for reading!

 

[Kannon Fodda]

Thanks for the suggestions on alternatives, but I'm not convinced they are for me. I'm not convinced of the front dinette option plus rear lounge / bed, at least for my needs. For a start cooking is not my thing. I'll probably just about manage to cremate a slice of bacon for a breakfast buttie, but otherwise a three hob cooker is going to be overkill. On the rare occasion I would need a table I'd set up the rear lounge area. Not having a fixed bed at the rear will also be more flexible in case I do suddenly have a reason to entertain, but also if I need to transport something longer. I can see myself being far more comfortable in the swiveled passenger seat as a form of armchair, than any dinette chair, whenever it isn't practical to sit outside.

Looking at most of the alternatives so far, visited a couple of dealers, and having done the NEC shows a couple of times in the search of "deals", they generally work out quite a bit more once you put comparable options on the vans. I did have one offer at the NEC, which I can still access if I'm quick, which made the Auto Trail quite attractively priced (although reading elsewhere on here, there might be reasons for that).

But the quandry remains as to engine size, rather than other features, kit and layout. I'm fairly certain of the vehicle, just not the drivetrain. The 2.0 115bhp will no doubt do, but the 2.3 130bhp is just a little bit better. It may come down to a coin flip.