A frame towing in France (5 Viewers)

[Paul and Val]

There have been many threads on the above topic but I have an idea (I await it being shot down in flames).

Can I not tow a Citroen 2CV which only weighs 600kg with the camping car registration displayed in the same way as I tow my normal trailer. Anybody can tow a trailer up to 750kg in France.

What do my fellow members think? Follhardy idea or, my God that guy has come up with a cunning whizz bang idea!

 

[Spriddler]

I assume you mean tow it off the ground on a trailer, not with an 'A' frame...........? Or on a length of rope

 

[Paul and Val]

I assume you mean tow it off the ground on a trailer, not with an 'A' frame...........? Or on a length of rope

No, with a braked A type frame.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Abgs]

I've been wondering about towing a 2CV also. We have a place in France and I quite fancy buying a 2CV to restore/rebuild and then use as a car for when we are in France.

I found this but only really suitable for a short haul tow:

Triangle uncoated, towing device

A triangle is used to tow a car without the need for a second driver. The triangel is fixed to the two tow hooks on the front of the car, and is then connected to the towing vehicle's trailer hitch. The front wheels will automatically follow the towing ve

www.burton2cvparts.com

The website suggests

"In Europe the Burton or 2CV can be towed as if it were a trailer weighing less than 750kg. This means triangular reflectors, and the license plate of the towing vehicle need to be added to the towed car."

But I've no idea whether that is true or not.

or this trailer:

Trailer 2CV / AMI / DYANE / MEHARI

www.citroparts.com

 

[pappajohn]

Problem with that is it doesn't weigh 600kg, it's the GROSS weight which applies even if empty.
As for number plate, a toad MUST display the tow vehicles reg number.... Even in France.
The law your thinking of (trailer specific number plate) applies to any trailer of any weight if used commercially and any trailer over 3500kg regardless of use.

 

[pappajohn]

I've been wondering about towing a 2CV also. We have a place in France and I quite fancy buying a 2CV to restore/rebuild and then use as a car for when we are in France.

I found this but only really suitable for a short haul tow:

Triangle uncoated, towing device

A triangle is used to tow a car without the need for a second driver. The triangel is fixed to the two tow hooks on the front of the car, and is then connected to the towing vehicle's trailer hitch. The front wheels will automatically follow the towing ve

www.burton2cvparts.com

The website suggests

"In Europe the Burton or 2CV can be towed as if it were a trailer weighing less than 750kg. This means triangular reflectors, and the license plate of the towing vehicle need to be added to the towed car."

But I've no idea whether that is true or not.

or this trailer:

Trailer 2CV / AMI / DYANE / MEHARI

www.citroparts.com

The problem with that is..... If brakes are fitted they MUST be functional and meet trailer specs.
A 2CV has brakes.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[David and Sally]

The problem with that is..... If brakes are fitted they MUST be funcional and meet trailer specs.
A 2CV has brakes.

I wondered how long it would take you to spot that Pike !!!

 

[Paul and Val]

Problem with that is it doesn't weigh 600kg, it's the GROSS weight which applies even if empty.

As usual, I don't understand your comment. The total weight of a 2CV is 600kg, the A frame will not be more than a 100kg so what is you point on that please?

Please clarify.

 

[pappajohn]

As usual, I don't understand your comment. The total weight of a 2CV is 600kg, the A frame will not be more than a 100kg so what is you point on that please?

Please clarify.

So the 600kg is the gross weight?
It can carry four people.
Average weight of four people will be 300kg......75kg each.
So the unladen weight is around 300kg......slightly more than a large motorbike.
I doubt that very much.

Citroen 2CV 6 Special Specs
With 0 to 100 km/h (62mph) in 33.5 seconds, a maximum top speed of 71 mph (115 km/h), a curb weight of 1290 lbs (585 kgs), the 2CV 6 Special has a naturally-aspirated - 2 cylinder engine, Petrol motor.

That's the curb weight.... The empty weight.. .. Not the gross weight.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Paul and Val]

I've been wondering about towing a 2CV also. We have a place in France and I quite fancy buying a 2CV to restore/rebuild and then use as a car for when we are in France.

I found this but only really suitable for a short haul tow:

Triangle uncoated, towing device

A triangle is used to tow a car without the need for a second driver. The triangel is fixed to the two tow hooks on the front of the car, and is then connected to the towing vehicle's trailer hitch. The front wheels will automatically follow the towing ve

www.burton2cvparts.com

The website suggests

"In Europe the Burton or 2CV can be towed as if it were a trailer weighing less than 750kg. This means triangular reflectors, and the license plate of the towing vehicle need to be added to the towed car."

But I've no idea whether that is true or not.

or this trailer:

Trailer 2CV / AMI / DYANE / MEHARI

www.citroparts.com

Thank you for your very helpful comments. This forum is full of fellow road users who want to assist but is also plagued with people not trying to help and being negative at times.

2CV's are very easy to restore as long as the chassis is sound. If not budget for about a 1k for a galvanised chassis and a weeks work for a mildly skilled home machanic to change over. I changed mine.

Doors are expensive and very difficult to fit seals to so try and source one with decent doors. All parts are available.

Getting back to topic whatever the rights and wrongs of towing with an A frame, be very careful particularly with a 2CV or Dyane. Most A frames are delivered with lorry type ratchet straps which cannot be used with these cars. The front suspension causes the straps to come undone and you need to replace the ratchet straps with chains which can be locked in place.

If you break down in France in a 2CV every car will stop to help! I have had 2CV's for years and they are the best cars on the planet in my humble opinion (and we also own a Bentley Arnage). I reccomend buying one.

If I can assist with advice please ask.

 

[Paul and Val]

So the 600kg is the gross weight?
It can carry four people.
Average weight of four people will be 300kg......75kg each.
So the unladen weight is around 300kg......slightly more than a large motorbike.
I doubt that very much.



That's the curb weight.... The empty weight.. .. Not the gross weight.

You still need to clarify your point.

Are you saying that gross weight is the fully possible laden weight with four people in the car? If so why not say so and be clear for once.

I am taking gross weight as the weight of the vehicle. If that is wrong why not provide a clear answer.

 

[pappajohn]

Most A frames are delivered with lorry type ratchet straps which cannot be used with these cars.

Sorry but where did that come from?
The only A frames which include straps are specific recovery A frames.
They have straps because the frame fits to the front lower suspension arms.
A frames as we know them don't need straps as they fit dedicated fixing points on the vehicle.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[pappajohn]

Are you saying that gross weight is the fully possible laden weight with four people in the car? If so why not say so and be clear for once.

OK... gross weight is the fully possible laden weight with four people in the car plus any luggage

 

[Paul and Val]

Sorry but where did that come from?
The only A frames which include straps are specific recovery A frames.
They have straps because the frame fits to the front lower suspension arms.
A frames as we know them don't need straps as they fit dedicated fixing points on the vehicle.

I have two of them in my garage, both of which came with ratchet straps. Would you like a picture?

It may well be that some or indeed most A frames come with chains, but neither of mine did. I was attempting to be helpful to another member as while straps can be used with many cars, they cannot be used with 2CV's which is what we were talking about.

 

[Paul and Val]

OK... gross weight is the fully possible laden weight with four people in the car plus any luggage

At last. Thank you so much.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[pappajohn]

I am taking gross weight as the weight of the vehicle. If that is wrong why not provide a clear answer.

I couldn't make it any clearer.
The car left the factory production line weighing 585kg.....that is the curb/Unladen weight.... Completely empty.
If you don't understand weights you will come unstuck if stopped and weighed.

 

[pappajohn]

I have two of them in my garage, both of which came with ratchet straps. Would you like a picture?

It may well be that some or indeed most A frames come with chains, but neither of mine did. I was attempting to be helpful to another member as while straps can be used with many cars, they cannot be used with 2CV's which is what we were talking about.

You've obviously never seen an A frame except a professional recovery one.
NO leisure A frames come with straps, chains or anything else.
Yours came with straps.... What do you fix the straps too?

 

[olley]

typical A frame:

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Pausim]

I don’t think a CV being less than 750kg is any more legal in France than any other car on an A-Frame. It might be viewed more sympathetically because it is a French classic. Don’t get me wrong, I use an A-Frame in the UK and think it is a sensible way to tow a car. In the UK the official advice is the car becomes a trailer but this isn’t accepted in Europe where it is still a car and flat towing seems to be limited to recovery.

 

[pappajohn]

Professional recovery A frame.... With straps

 

[Abgs]

2CV's are very easy to restore as long as the chassis is sound. If not budget for about a 1k for a galvanised chassis and a weeks work for a mildly skilled home machanic to change over. I changed mine.

Doors are expensive and very difficult to fit seals to so try and source one with decent doors. All parts are available.

Getting back to topic whatever the rights and wrongs of towing with an A frame, be very careful particularly with a 2CV or Dyane. Most A frames are delivered with lorry type ratchet straps which cannot be used with these cars. The front suspension causes the straps to come undone and you need to replace the ratchet straps with chains which can be locked in place.

If you break down in France in a 2CV every car will stop to help! I have had 2CV's for years and they are the best cars on the planet in my humble opinion (and we also own a Bentley Arnage). I reccomend buying one.

If I can assist with advice please ask.

Good advice, most helpful - thanks!

I used to strip and rebuild VW Beetles in my youth so I figured a 2CV should be in my skill set range. Though the prices of them here in France ( Dept 17 ) seem to have gone through the roof in the last couple of years.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[TonyEmm]

As usual, I don't understand your comment. The total weight of a 2CV is 600kg, the A frame will not be more than a 100kg so what is you point on that please?

Please clarify.

The weights are irrelevant. If the ‘trailer’ has brakes, they have to work in accordance with the regs!

 

[TonyEmm]

I've been wondering about towing a 2CV also. We have a place in France and I quite fancy buying a 2CV to restore/rebuild and then use as a car for when we are in France.

I found this but only really suitable for a short haul tow:

Triangle uncoated, towing device

A triangle is used to tow a car without the need for a second driver. The triangel is fixed to the two tow hooks on the front of the car, and is then connected to the towing vehicle's trailer hitch. The front wheels will automatically follow the towing ve

www.burton2cvparts.com

The website suggests

"In Europe the Burton or 2CV can be towed as if it were a trailer weighing less than 750kg. This means triangular reflectors, and the license plate of the towing vehicle need to be added to the towed car."

But I've no idea whether that is true or not.

or this trailer:

Trailer 2CV / AMI / DYANE / MEHARI

www.citroparts.com

An unbraked frame such as that is only legal for recovery of a broken down vehicle, even in the U.K. In France, you need to be using a licensed recovery operator. It could be used to be towed to a place of safety, but no more.

 

[Peppadog]

So. Was it a ‘wiz bang idea’ to get around the A frame rules in France by fitting one to a 2CV due to its low weight (below 750kgs including the frame)?

NO.

Reason:
Towing in France
On a standard driving licence, motorists are allowed to tow a trailer with a maximum authorised mass of 750kg, including the trailer and its load. You're not allowed to tow a motor vehicle except in the event of a breakdown or an accident and if the distance to be travelled is short.
Source: RAC website.

We know from a couple of his, or her posts that the OP likes clarity. The ‘authorised mass’ in the above sentence means the gross vehicle weight of a 2CV, not its unladen weight of 585kgs. Add passengers, the A frame etc. and it is well in excess of 750kgs.
Towing a motor vehicle. Which you are if it is not on a trailer, unless to recover it as above, is no allowed.

Could you get away with it, as many do? Well. Do you knowingly break the law regularly in the UK in any way? If not, why would you knowingly break the law in France.

There may have been an argument when we were in the EU that what’s legal in one member state, is good enough in another. We are no longer in the EU, so that argument is now invalid. Even towing a small car on a trailer now needs investigating, according to the RAC statement on ‘standard driving licence’ above. But that was not the original question.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Petehvan]

In the past I have towed many thousand of miles towing a 2cv behind an Havan, mostly in the U.K. and Holland. The only problem that occurred was that on occasions you got severe body rock on the 2cv which could be alarming, if possible you could accelerate out of the situation, if this could not be done you had no other option but to stop and pull away again. Speed bumps and bad road surfaces were the main reason for this happening.

 

[TonyEmm]

So. Was it a ‘wiz bang idea’ to get around the A frame rules in France by fitting one to a 2CV due to its low weight (below 750kgs including the frame)?

NO.

Reason:
Towing in France
On a standard driving licence, motorists are allowed to tow a trailer with a maximum authorised mass of 750kg, including the trailer and its load. You're not allowed to tow a motor vehicle except in the event of a breakdown or an accident and if the distance to be travelled is short.
Source: RAC website.

We know from a couple of his, or her posts that the OP likes clarity. The ‘authorised mass’ in the above sentence means the gross vehicle weight of a 2CV, not its unladen weight of 585kgs. Add passengers, the A frame etc. and it is well in excess of 750kgs.
.....
Even towing a small car on a trailer now needs investigating, according to the RAC statement on ‘standard driving licence’ above. But that was not the original question.

The driving licence categories in France are the same as in the U.K. A ‘standard’ licence which the RAC refer to is a Cat B. The holder can drive a vehicle up to 3500kgs MAM (MGW) and tow up to 750kgs.... but that’s plated weight, not kerb weight. The plated weights will be the first figure on the VIN plate. The holder can tow more than 750kgs provided that the totals are not more than 3500kgs but the trailer cannot weigh more than the towing vehicles kerb weight. To tow any more, B+E is required.
That said, if a trailer under 750kgs is fitted with brakes, then they must be in workIng order!

 

[TonyEmm]

In the past I have towed many thousand of miles towing a 2cv behind an Havan, mostly in the U.K. and Holland. The only problem that occurred was that on occasions you got severe body rock on the 2cv which could be alarming, if possible you could accelerate out of the situation, if this could not be done you had no other option but to stop and pull away again. Speed bumps and bad road surfaces were the main reason for this happening.

I thought that was the norm for 2CV’s!

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[TonyEmm]

typical A frame:
View attachment 428577

That looks like 30x30 box section for the arms? As a trailer manufacturer, we NEVER built a trailer with such a small section ‘A’ frame (drawbar). Any hint of a jackknife situation when reversing and it would be guaranteed to bend....

 

[olley]

As the toad is now classed as a trailer and the A frame is its drawbar, simply put a new plate on the A frame with a gross weight of 750 kg. this would override the existing plate in the car as most trailers have the gross weight on the drawbar.
That's one regulation solved just got to work around the others.

 

[olley]

That looks like 30x30 box section for the arms? As a trailer manufacturer, we NEVER built a trailer with such a small section ‘A’ frame (drawbar). Any hint of a jackknife situation when reversing and it would be guaranteed to bend.... ☹

30x30x3mm Tony, now don't be silly it obvious you have never seen how the crossmember is attached to the front of a car, in an extremely unlikely jackknife situation it would simply tear out of the front of the car leaving the box undamaged.
Have a look at all the professional ones made in the states, no one uses anything stronger and they don't seem to have a problem.

A frames are different to drawbars as they don't have to bear part of the weight of the trailer so don't need to be so strong, and trailers have to be designed as you know for numpty's loading them badly, putting excessive weight on the drawbar and towing vehicle, as we see with caravans all the time.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}