Who needs batteries to store surplus green electricity when you can store it in the air.

[buttons]

The system was devised by Peter Dearman, a self-taught backyard inventor from Hertfordshire, and it has been taken to commercial scale with a £10m grant from the UK government.

UK energy plant to use liquid air

The 50MW facility near Manchester hopes to store enough power for roughly 50,000 homes.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[David and Sally]

Excellent!

I have patented a device to store energy in hot air. Now being trialled at the HOC.

 

[RidersofRohan]

Stated to be 60 to 70% efficient. Presumably the energy from the wind power is used to cool the air to store it.
Instead of making electricity could we just cool the air and arrest global warming?

 

[buttons]

Excellent!

I have patented a device to store energy in hot air. Now being trialled at the HOC.

That sounds interesting D&S. This plant in Manchester using liquid ail with a capacity of 50MW sounds like a useful night storage facility.

 

[Jev88]

Nice. But same technique could be used to make hydrogen instead ....

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[Just smiffy]

“‘ It will use surplus electricity from wind farms at night to compress air so hard that it becomes a liquid at -196 Celsius.””

ideal to keep the new vaccine...

 

[pappajohn]

“‘ It will use surplus electricity from wind farms at night to compress air so hard that it becomes a liquid at -196 Celsius.””

ideal to keep the new vaccine...

That's odd..... Compressing air produces heat.
Stick your finger over the end of a bike pump and pump hard if you don't believe.

 

[Larrynwin]

That's odd..... Compressing air produces heat.
Stick your finger over the end of a bike pump and pump hard if you don't believe.

and it squeaks

 

[68c]

That's odd..... Compressing air produces heat.
Stick your finger over the end of a bike pump and pump hard if you don't believe.

They do not not compress the air, precisely because it would heat up. Instead it is super cooled to below -195°C.

 

[Snowbird]

I have a similar system at home. The surplus energy from my 4KW solar array is diverted to a super insulated water cylinder that provides all our hot water free of charge. I still get paid by my energy company for 50% of what I produce even though I use most of the stuff myself.

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[autorouter]

Nice. But same technique could be used to make hydrogen instead ....

It solves a different problem. Hydrogen is useful as a fuel, because its energy density is much greater than a battery. It can be used in vehicles, aircraft etc where it's difficult to attach an electric supply.

Liquid air energy storage takes surplus electricity from the grid, stores the energy, then pushes out electricity back into the grid when demand requires it. All the bits are on one site, no transport involved.

 

[pappajohn]

They do not not compress the air, precisely because it would heat up. Instead it is super cooled to below -195°C.

See post #6

 

[chrisgreen]

I have a similar system at home. The surplus energy from my 4KW solar array is diverted to a super insulated water cylinder that provides all our hot water free of charge. I still get paid by my energy company for 50% of what I produce even though I use most of the stuff myself.

If I had 4kw solar I would install a powerwall to store any surplus energy.

 

[jockaneezer]

Old guy I worked with had worked on the Blue Streak rocket program at Spadeadam. There were 3 main companies involved, Rolls Royce built the engines, de Havilland did the aeronautical stuff and BOC provided the liquid oxygen and nitrogen (lox for combustion and nitrogen for purging and running turbo compressor fuel pumps for the kerosene fuel) All the lox was produced by banks of compressors which basically compressed air down to 5000 psi.

 

[Snowbird]

If I had 4kw solar I would install a powerwall to store any surplus energy.

I doubt I would live long enough to get my money back from the cost of a power wall. We are in a negative utility bill situation now by the time I get my winter fuel allowance which almost pays the water rates. I got shut of the gas meter last year as it was costing 25p per day to store the damned thing for them. The electric we use during the night is more than covered by the feed in tariff. The woodburner heats the whole house on free wood from the local tree surgeon.

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[buttons]

If anyone is interested in this strange concept of using energy to generate less energy then let me recommend a tour when you are next in Scotland.
Cruachan........ the station generates electricity by letting water from one reservoir run down hill into another reservoir. The electricity that this water generates on the way down is then used to pump the same water back up hill into the top reservoir again. Strange concept but most definitely worth a visit..

 

[Larrynwin]

If anyone is interested in this strange concept of using energy to generate less energy then let me recommend a tour when you are next in Scotland.
Cruachan........ the station generates electricity by letting water from one reservoir run down hill into another reservoir. The electricity that this water generates on the way down is then used to pump the same water back up hill into the top reservoir again. Strange concept but most definitely worth a visit..

Also one in Wales , can’t remember where , saw it many years ago.

 

[ManTheVan]

Trawsfynydd...

Yes, a pumped storage scheme would seem to store less energy than put in, but the idea is that it uses surplus energy (usually at night, there’s an excess) to pump the water up into the higher reservoir, where it sits until needed (and is also added to by natural rainfall and streams). When the nation gets up to put the kettle on at half time, they can bring megawatts of electricity to the party in under 20sec. The generators are then reversed and become pumps when there’s surplus electricity. Very clever and clean.

 

[buttons]

Also one in Wales , can’t remember where , saw it many years ago.

Yes I found the the visit to be a very interesting. My lovely lady also enjoyed it. An Incredible 440 MW on black start by just opening a water valve and closing a circuit breaker is more or less instance power. Only problem is that the top reservoir would soon run out of water if they didn't use electricity to pump the water back up again...

 

[Figaro]

I think the point is it`s pumped back up at night using cheap rate off peak electric.
Lake Vyrnwy (spelling ?) uses the same concept

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[68c]

Try this link explaining how it works.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...BMAt6BAgHEAw&usg=AOvVaw3NgeskmqAsYNw98yyt5ZRv

[/URL]

 

[autorouter]

There are two pumped storage schemes in Wales. One of them, being in the National Park, has all the industrial plant hidden in vast subterranean caverns, tunnelled out by slate workers. The turbine hall plant was designed, at least in part, by Carol Vorderman.

First Hydro Company - Electric Mountain Site

The retained car park at the Electric Mountain site will formally re-open at the beginning of April as a Pay & Display Car Park under the control of Initial Parking Management.

www.electricmountain.co.uk

 

[Gromett]

The system was devised by Peter Dearman, a self-taught backyard inventor from Hertfordshire, and it has been taken to commercial scale with a £10m grant from the UK government.

UK energy plant to use liquid air

The 50MW facility near Manchester hopes to store enough power for roughly 50,000 homes.

www.bbc.co.uk

Keep up

Broken Link Removed

 

[Gromett]

Nice. But same technique could be used to make hydrogen instead ....

Hydrogen is not as efficient and a LOT more expensive.

Look at the round trip of converting electric to hydrogen then back to electric using fuel cells. 30% efficient perhaps as much as 50% in a static system.

 

[buttons]

Keep up

Broken Link Removed

My apologies Mr Gromitt but in my defence your post didn't jump out and bite me. However, I agree this does look like a project that will grow. Not just that. It was also, a concept having its roots in Hertfordshire that got my eye. Good morning by the way

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[tonyidle]

It has taken a while to hit the News (again):

Liquid air 'offers energy storage hope'

Using "wrong-time" electricity from renewables to turn air into liquid may offer a solution to one of the great challenges in engineering - how to store energy.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[jongood]

If I had 4kw solar I would install a powerwall to store any surplus energy.

Ive got a buffer cylinder on my solar system (7kw). the difference is a powerwall is 10 x the price.

 

[Gromett]

My apologies Mr Gromitt but in my defence your post didn't jump out and bite me. However, I agree this does look like a project that will grow. Not just that. It was also, a concept having its roots in Hertfordshire that got my eye. Good morning by the way

Morning

Seems like a pretty good project. Relatively low cost, expandable and fast acting. efficiency is low(ish) at the moment but will improve but even at current levels of efficiency/cost seems like a better option than curtailing wind generation at high costs.

 

[Jev88]

Hydrogen is not as efficient and a LOT more expensive.

Look at the round trip of converting electric to hydrogen then back to electric using fuel cells. 30% efficient perhaps as much as 50% in a static system.

I mean that there is no reason not to have BOTH systems running and taking surplus solar or wind farm energy and either storing it away (Air) or converting energy to Hydrogen - both utilising surplus power being produced.

 

[Gromett]

I mean that there is no reason not to have BOTH systems running and taking surplus solar or wind farm energy and either storing it away (Air) or converting energy to Hydrogen - both utilising surplus power being produced.

There isn't that much surplus power. Storing as hydrogen offers little benefit to the grid sadly, storing as air does. You know for when the wind stops blowing and at peak times.

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