What premium to pay for premium brands (1 Viewer)

[Lucky]

Premium brand motorhomes cost more than budget brands, naturally. Dethleffs cost more than Sunlight, Rapido cost more than Itineo, Hymer cost more... and so on. Some folk see value in premium brands, others don't.

How do we objectively measure quality and allocate it a value? A glance at price lists shows us premium sells for more, but how much more is it worth paying for something we cannot quantify?

If you bought a premium brand, how did you determine what precisely was better about it compared with its budget alternative and how much extra you thought it worth it paying (5%, 10%, 15%, 20%)?

I guess resale values and prestiege might come in to some people's reckoning, but I'm particularly interested in what else makes us pay more for essentially the same product.

Any thoughts?

 

[Blue Knight]

It's a difficult one to judge and compare.

Example: I could buy a new 9G Autotrail Commanche for close to £80,000 at my local AT dealer today while the same length Frankia, N&B or Carthago vans would be £170,000 before any reductions.

.........so how you go about evaluating them on an apples-for-apples basis is anyone's guess but all I know is that I would avoid the cheap one for sure in this example.

 

[Lenny HB]

They

I guess resale values and prestiege might come in to some people's reckoning, but I'm particularly interested in what else makes us pay more for essentially the same product.

They are not the same, different construction methods, different levels of quality.
N & B, Carthago and the newer model Hymers use a double aluminum sandwich, the inner wall is aluminum as well as the outer wall, no timber is used in the construction of the body and they have GRP floors. The quality of the pre-painted aluminum side panels are of a higher grade on N & B and Carthago than on Hymers.
Also, the insulation type used varies between makes N&B use Styrofoam, Carthago RTM Hard, Hymer PU.
A lot of the mid range vans still have a timber free construction but the interior wall is ply.
When you get down to the budget vans they are still built with timber patterns in the walls, poor quality insulation usually polystyrene, cheaper furnishings etc.
Most British van use timber battens and polystyrene insulation, also nearly all the wiring in British vans is undersized.
That is only an example of a few differences.

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[BusyBuilder]

We wanted an A class with drop down bed, for just the two of us, with more living space. The only brands available with this config were Hymer Frankia and Pilote. BUT we didn't want a UK made van for various reasons.
We looked around, and at the time the only available van was the Hymer. Cost never came into the equation, but didn't want to spend much above £50k.

 

[funflair]

Yes you can compare specs but that would be only part of the process the rest is just a feeling you get when you go in a van, you either like it or you don't, then if you can afford it go for it if you start obsessing about value for money and what the £250k van does that the £80k or £100k van won't do you will for sure end up with the cheaper one.

 

[Lucky]

They

They are not the same, different construction methods, different levels of quality.
N & B, Carthago and the newer model Hymers use a double aluminum sandwich, the inner wall is aluminum as well as the outer wall, no timber is used in the construction of the body and they have GRP floors. The quality of the pre-painted aluminum side panels are of a higher grade on N & B and Carthago than on Hymers.
Also, the insulation type used varies between makes N&B use Styrofoam, Carthago RTM Hard, Hymer PU.
A lot of the mid range vans still have a timber free construction but the interior wall is ply.
When you get down to the budget vans they are still built with timber patterns in the walls, poor quality insulation usually polystyrene, cheaper furnishings etc.
Most British van use timber battens and polystyrene insulation, also nearly all the wiring in British vans is undersized.
That is only an example of a few differences.

Useful, thanks

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[SpeedyDux]

If SWMBO wants a premium brand MH not the cheap and cheerful budget version, then that's what counts above all else.

Price difference becomes irrelevant.

 

[Beltie]

They

They are not the same, different construction methods, different levels of quality.
N & B, Carthago and the newer model Hymers use a double aluminum sandwich, the inner wall is aluminum as well as the outer wall, no timber is used in the construction of the body and they have GRP floors. The quality of the pre-painted aluminum side panels are of a higher grade on N & B and Carthago than on Hymers.
Also, the insulation type used varies between makes N&B use Styrofoam, Carthago RTM Hard, Hymer PU.
A lot of the mid range vans still have a timber free construction but the interior wall is ply.
When you get down to the budget vans they are still built with timber patterns in the walls, poor quality insulation usually polystyrene, cheaper furnishings etc.
Most British van use timber battens and polystyrene insulation, also nearly all the wiring in British vans is undersized.
That is only an example of a few differences.

I may be wrong, but I think the only UK manufacturer still using timber battens, is Eldiss/Compass. You are right about the polystyrene insulation though.

 

[funflair]

They

They are not the same, different construction methods, different levels of quality.
N & B, Carthago and the newer model Hymers use a double aluminum sandwich, the inner wall is aluminum as well as the outer wall, no timber is used in the construction of the body and they have GRP floors. The quality of the pre-painted aluminum side panels are of a higher grade on N & B and Carthago than on Hymers.
Also, the insulation type used varies between makes N&B use Styrofoam, Carthago RTM Hard, Hymer PU.
A lot of the mid range vans still have a timber free construction but the interior wall is ply.
When you get down to the budget vans they are still built with timber patterns in the walls, poor quality insulation usually polystyrene, cheaper furnishings etc.
Most British van use timber battens and polystyrene insulation, also nearly all the wiring in British vans is undersized.
That is only an example of a few differences.

Then the bigger vans are heavier so they need to be on the heavier chassis and RWD so Merc or IVECO or even a truck chassis for the over 7500kg licence holders, then you have the RWD options with the standard dashboard at the original position so you have a big gap to the windscreen and no underfloor storage to speak of, or you pay a bit/lot more and have a custom moulded dashboard and all the original bits built into it but at a higher level with the seats more towards the outside of the van and further forward so gaining space inside and a better view while driving.

It's the combination of all these things that start to add up and command a "premium" price tag.

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[funflair]

If SWMBO wants a premium brand MH not the cheap and cheerful budget version, then that's what counts above all else.

Price difference becomes irrelevant.

Especially is she's paying

 

[The Wino]

Premium brand motorhomes cost more than budget brands, naturally. Dethleffs cost more than Sunlight, Rapido cost more than Itineo, Hymer cost more... and so on. Some folk see value in premium brands, others don't.

How do we objectively measure quality and allocate it a value? A glance at price lists shows us premium sells for more, but how much more is it worth paying for something we cannot quantify?

If you bought a premium brand, how did you determine what precisely was better about it compared with its budget alternative and how much extra you thought it worth it paying (5%, 10%, 15%, 20%)?

I guess resale values and prestiege might come in to some people's reckoning, but I'm particularly interested in what else makes us pay more for essentially the same product.

Any thoughts?

What make of car do you drive and how old do you buy them?. You are already doing the same calculation!

 

[funflair]

I may be wrong, but I think the only UK manufacturer still using timber battens, is Eldiss/Compass. You are right about the polystyrene insulation though.

The trouble with polystyrene is that once it gets wet it holds the moisture.

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[Phileas Fogg]

The true cost is not how much you pay for it but how much you will get back when you sell it! Cash in the bank is worth diddly squat at the moment so it is all about the depreciation in my mind. The better the make and quality the better it should hold its value

 

[The Wino]

The true cost is not how much you pay for it but how much you will get back when you sell it! Cash in the bank is worth diddly squat at the moment so it is all about the depreciation in my mind. The better the make and quality the better it should hold its value

Disagree!. I think cheaper ones tend to hold their value better in percentage and pound terms.

 

[Roger S]

We have had a couple of new Swift vans ( stop it ) costing £50k for the first one, we kept it for three years, then we traded it in and bought another model Swift for near £60K. With doing over 6,ooo miles per year, I reckon they drop £5,000 a year, but we didint buy at retail price, both were nicely reduced.

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[Phileas Fogg]

Disagree!. I think cheaper ones tend to hold their value better in percentage and pound terms.

Perhaps my post wasn't entirely clear, just like cars I am not suggesting depreciation is less on more expensive vans, of course as you say it is far more. Comparing vans of equal cost though you are better buying as good a make and quality as you can. If I had to buy a van conversion completed by Joe the plumber or for the same money could get a slightly older but respected make I know which I would buy and which I suspect will resell better.
Actually, I think we agree!

 

[Burgo]

We actually hired a sunlight T67 while humming and hawing as to whether we could afford the, smaller, dethleffs globebus T7, on the basis that if we bought we would get th e rental discounted off the purchase price. The difference in quality was actually palpable - not just in what was fitted (eg Remis blinds rather than a cloth curtain) - but the way doors shut, drawers opened and latched, blinds, curtains and upholstery, bits of trim around light fittings, usb ports etc.. Don't get the idea I'm dissing the sunlight - they're flipping good vans and the numbers used as hire fleets show they must be good and strong for that market. And I don't believe the Dethleffs just had added 'bling' - IMO there actually is a bit more care and consideration in the build and fit out and little details are a big difference sometimes.

 

[G7UXG]

Having had two Autotrails followed by a Hymer and then two Carthagos, I can say that they all enabled us to satisfactorily tour around Europe and stay on the same sites as anyone else, regardless of how much each had paid for their motorhome.

The Autotrails were good value but poor quality. In the second one, the dinette seat fell apart and I collapsed onto the floor the first time I sat on it!

The Hymer was a 2012 Star Edition model that probably pre-dated their latest build quality (I can’t speak for the later ones ‘cause I haven’t owned one or really looked at them). It was built like a tank and much quieter on the road than I had been used to with Autotrails. The difference in quality was like night and day, but it still only did the same job, it was just more satisfying to use... and I didn’t have to rebuild the dinette to the standard Autotrail should have built it to in the first place.

The Carthago’s are as well built as the earlier Hymer... better in some respects and not as good in others. They are the quietest motorhomes that I’ve owned with very little in the way of creaking when driven along the road, and the current one, a tag axle, is a delight to drive and use. I still stay in the same types of place and do the same thing.

It’s all down to your budget and how you like to spend your money. Better quality motorhome might give you more satisfaction, or a cheap one might make you smirk because you’re doing the same as me for less money. It’s your choice.

It’s like the BMW versus Ford Focus debate. I drive a BMW

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[Robert Clark]

 

[The Wino]

Perhaps my post wasn't entirely clear, just like cars I am not suggesting depreciation is less on more expensive vans, of course as you say it is far more. Comparing vans of equal cost though you are better buying as good a make and quality as you can. If I had to buy a van conversion completed by Joe the plumber or for the same money could get a slightly older but respected make I know which I would buy and which I suspect will resell better.
Actually, I think we agree!

If you're in effect saying depreciation reduces as vehicles age yes agree. So it will deprecate less if a posh one a few years older than a new basic one. Which costs less overall as a new one should need less repairs and which offers the best overall value who knows!

 

[Ivory55]

If you have to ask how much you should be paying, you cannot afford it. Only you know how much spending/pocket money you have. No point spending it all on a van and having nothing left to go anywhere.

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[Pausim]

Premium brand motorhomes cost more than budget brands, naturally. Dethleffs cost more than Sunlight, Rapido cost more than Itineo, Hymer cost more... and so on. Some folk see value in premium brands, others don't.

I have had a number of motorhomes, some would be regarded as budget and my more recent ones as premium. My personal view is that if you can afford a premium one it is well worth spending the extra. However, if this would stretch your finances painfully then you will probably get more enjoyment out of the budget one you can afford without worrying about money all the time. You may have a few more problems with a budget one but they probably won’t worry you as much as being broke.

 

[marchie]

Premium brand motorhomes cost more than budget brands, naturally. Dethleffs cost more than Sunlight, Rapido cost more than Itineo, Hymer cost more... and so on. Some folk see value in premium brands, others don't.

How do we objectively measure quality and allocate it a value? A glance at price lists shows us premium sells for more, but how much more is it worth paying for something we cannot quantify?

If you bought a premium brand, how did you determine what precisely was better about it compared with its budget alternative and how much extra you thought it worth it paying (5%, 10%, 15%, 20%)?

I guess resale values and prestiege might come in to some people's reckoning, but I'm particularly interested in what else makes us pay more for essentially the same product.

Any thoughts?

Brand Value is a complex topic and companies spend significant sums on developing, maintaining and protecting it. At the customer level we may lust after Brand X because of its perceived quality and the brand will sell to the emotions such as aspirations, sexiness, safety/security needs [for the young, aspiring parent looking for a product or service that emphasises protection for their loved ones etc]. But this 'froth'is underpinned by successful R&D to produce tangible products and services of high quality, durability, lightness etc; in short, the thing that makes you say, 'And that is what marks Brand X quality, the attention to detail' etc etc

In turn, the R&D has to then be translated into quality production processes so that we see the finished example of the quality product that makes the Brand so desirable. But this costs a huge amount for the motorhome industry with low volumes and high labour intensive processes. VAG is the largest car producer in the world and defrays its cost over a wide variety of brands to enable economies of scale to be achievd and shared components across its brands [common chassis for Passat & Skoda Octavia; Ford & PSA sharing engine technology development etc].

A range of products enables market segmentation to be used to pitch the true premium product with all the bells & whistles at the top of the range [produced in small numbers for exclusivity at a high premium price to cover the higher costs of the niche product, and to yield higher unit profits]; the mid range model to have some of the [major cost/size] components from the premium range [e.g. VW Passat/Skoda common chassis] but with slightly lower quality or fewer bells & whistles, with the mid-range products aimed at a higher volume customer base at a lower price than the premium range, but still with high profit margins; and thenon to the true Budget product that has the Brand badge, some top quality elements such as engine to support the Brand reputation for reliability and durability, but a decent number of the budget 'rigid, scratch prone plastic cab dashboard, less impressive than the higher specced Model X' etc to provide a model that enjoys the Brand reputation, attracts aspiring customers who can afford to get on the ladder. Prices will be very attractive to enable the aspirers to afford the purchase, with the quality high enough to retain loyalty and to encourage the aspirers to want to upgrade.

Spreading development costs across a range of products achieves economies of scale in production. Spreading the model range across several different market segments increases the customer base, and means that an economic downturn damaging one are of the customer base can be offset by the other, unaffected segments.

And all of this, and a lot of other factors, produce the quality product that cements the Brand reputation, that drives the sales, that produces the revenues and enables lower cost volume production, maximising cashflow and profitability to support leading R&D to start the 'virtuous circle all over again', ideally at a higher level, so that the Brand stays ahead of the opposition and creates high cost barriers to new competitiors, rather than resting on laurels and starting the spiral of failure. Thor owns Hymer owns Dethleffs, Burstners, Elddis etc to give a multi level range of perceived value for money/desirability at the particular price point that people wish to buy into and tade up within. The Brand Value is both perceptual and tangible, the latter evidenced by the increased business value derived from profitable trading. The 'Marketing Hype' has to be underpinned by quality products to makeus want to pay varying levels of premium to buy into the reputation and the actual product.

Our intended Sunlight M/Home purchase places us in the 'less well heeled' customer grouping according to the Practical Motorhome Review, i.e. aspirational cheapskates!

Steve & Elaine, your friendly neighbourhood paupers

 

[Burgo]

What marchie said. I think that nails it well - think also of the way Porsche pitched the Boxster in to get aspirational owners on the hook. And the way Toyota use Lexus. Quite a lot in common with the base range to keep the reliability and build quality up, but with the premium range you just get more attention to detail and finer tolerances in more areas.

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[The Wino]

Brand Value is a complex topic and companies spend significant sums on developing, maintaining and protecting it. At the customer level we may lust after Brand X because of its perceived quality and the brand will sell to the emotions such as aspirations, sexiness, safety/security needs [for the young, aspiring parent looking for a product or service that emphasises protection for their loved ones etc]. But this 'froth'is underpinned by successful R&D to produce tangible products and services of high quality, durability, lightness etc; in short, the thing that makes you say, 'And that is what marks Brand X quality, the attention to detail' etc etc

In turn, the R&D has to then be translated into quality production processes so that we see the finished example of the quality product that makes the Brand so desirable. But this costs a huge amount for the motorhome industry with low volumes and high labour intensive processes. VAG is the largest car producer in the world and defrays its cost over a wide variety of brands to enable economies of scale to be achievd and shared components across its brands [common chassis for Passat & Skoda Octavia; Ford & PSA sharing engine technology development etc].

A range of products enables market segmentation to be used to pitch the true premium product with all the bells & whistles at the top of the range [produced in small numbers for exclusivity at a high premium price to cover the higher costs of the niche product, and to yield higher unit profits]; the mid range model to have some of the [major cost/size] components from the premium range [e.g. VW Passat/Skoda common chassis] but with slightly lower quality or fewer bells & whistles, with the mid-range products aimed at a higher volume customer base at a lower price than the premium range, but still with high profit margins; and thenon to the true Budget product that has the Brand badge, some top quality elements such as engine to support the Brand reputation for reliability and durability, but a decent number of the budget 'rigid, scratch prone plastic cab dashboard, less impressive than the higher specced Model X' etc to provide a model that enjoys the Brand reputation, attracts aspiring customers who can afford to get on the ladder. Prices will be very attractive to enable the aspirers to afford the purchase, with the quality high enough to retain loyalty and to encourage the aspirers to want to upgrade.

Spreading development costs across a range of products achieves economies of scale in production. Spreading the model range across several different market segments increases the customer base, and means that an economic downturn damaging one are of the customer base can be offset by the other, unaffected segments.

And all of this, and a lot of other factors, produce the quality product that cements the Brand reputation, that drives the sales, that produces the revenues and enables lower cost volume production, maximising cashflow and profitability to support leading R&D to start the 'virtuous circle all over again', ideally at a higher level, so that the Brand stays ahead of the opposition and creates high cost barriers to new competitiors, rather than resting on laurels and starting the spiral of failure. Thor owns Hymer owns Dethleffs, Burstners, Elddis etc to give a multi level range of perceived value for money/desirability at the particular price point that people wish to buy into and tade up within. The Brand Value is both perceptual and tangible, the latter evidenced by the increased business value derived from profitable trading. The 'Marketing Hype' has to be underpinned by quality products to makeus want to pay varying levels of premium to buy into the reputation and the actual product.

Our intended Sunlight M/Home purchase places us in the 'less well heeled' customer grouping according to the Practical Motorhome Review, i.e. aspirational cheapskates!

Steve & Elaine, your friendly neighbourhood paupers

In car terms you're in the same place as us with a Skoda and a Seat wanting a bit of the brand's components without the price!. I would say careful with our money some would say tight others dilluded and the cars are nowhere near the same as the brand they're owned by.
I think the other thing though is the brand's often rely on marketing hype to retain their position and snobbishness by consumers. Are designer clothes or watches really worth the money? I don't know because I've never owned any

 

[Lucky]

If you have to ask how much you should be paying, you cannot afford it. Only you know how much spending/pocket money you have. No point spending it all on a van and having nothing left to go anywhere.

I'm currently looking at Itineo and Dethleffs, the latter costs abut 10% more. For me it isn't just a question of affordability, its whether the extra cost makes sense to me because I could spend that extra money on something else (a motorcycle, electric cycles, a cruise, a tummy tuck ).

My decision is a balancing act. Resale value (cost of lifetime ownership to be precise) comes into my reckoning, as does pride and my perception of quality (for example when opening / closing a door) .

I'm swaying towards getting the Dethleffs as I think its 'better' but honestly don't know why. I do however believe the adage 'buy cheap, buy twice' and 'quality is remembered long after the price is forgotten'.

I need to mull over whether Dethleffs is better than Itineo, and if so why. Any thoughts on those two brands?

 

[funflair]

I'm currently looking at Itineo and Dethleffs, the latter costs abut 10% more. For me it isn't just a question of affordability, its whether the extra cost makes sense to me because I could spend that extra money on something else (a motorcycle, electric cycles, a cruise, a tummy tuck ).

My decision is a balancing act. Resale value (cost of lifetime ownership to be precise) comes into my reckoning, as does pride and my perception of quality (for example when opening / closing a door) .

I'm swaying towards getting the Dethleffs as I think its 'better' but honestly don't know why. I do however believe the adage 'buy cheap, buy twice' and 'quality is remembered long after the price is forgotten'.

I need to mull over whether Dethleffs is better than Itineo, and if so why. Any thoughts on those two brands?

I know nothing about the brands really other than in my perception Dethleffs have a lot more history, you obviously "like" the Dethleffs more and that could be something you can actually see or feel or it might just be the name/brand if you like it better there is a fair chance that somebody else will like it better down the line when you come to sell so that will translate into a higher value so you get to own the van you really want and at the end of the day it won't really cost you any more and might even be better value in the long run, why buy a van you are not sure about right from the start.

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[Pausim]

Our intended Sunlight M/Home purchase places us in the 'less well heeled' customer grouping according to the Practical Motorhome Review, i.e. aspirational cheapskates!

Steve & Elaine, your friendly neighbourhood paupers

Your intended Sunlight purchase places you in the ‘sensible category’, you appear to be purchasing something you can afford to enjoy. Premium products and prices are only a good purchase if you don’t have to sacrifice everything else to buy it. Better to be a friendly neighbourhood pauper and happy than the troubled owner of an expensive product.

 

[The Wino]

I'm currently looking at Itineo and Dethleffs, the latter costs abut 10% more. For me it isn't just a question of affordability, its whether the extra cost makes sense to me because I could spend that extra money on something else (a motorcycle, electric cycles, a cruise, a tummy tuck ).

My decision is a balancing act. Resale value (cost of lifetime ownership to be precise) comes into my reckoning, as does pride and my perception of quality (for example when opening / closing a door) .

I'm swaying towards getting the Dethleffs as I think its 'better' but honestly don't know why. I do however believe the adage 'buy cheap, buy twice' and 'quality is remembered long after the price is forgotten'.

I need to mull over whether Dethleffs is better than Itineo, and if so why. Any thoughts on those two brands?

If there was a"right" answer either everyone would pay the extra or no-one. It sounds like you fancy the more expensive one but want to justify it to yourself (or maybe your partner!). I'm afraid it's just make your own mind up just like when you decide what car or house to buy or where you shop or if you fancy new clothes or whatever. There always going to be a reason to justify the decision either way. It's the same deciding when to replace an existing motorhome the wallet says no the heart often says yes . You can list all the upcoming costs of continued ownership and convince yourself it's saving money to replace it forgetting ( conveniently) the knowledge that you will lose way more in depreciation the moment you drive it away from the dealers or man up and just say it's my money to spend and I think I'll enjoy it. I just stick with the same one because I'm tight!

 

[marchie]

If there was a"right" answer either everyone would pay the extra or no-one. It sounds like you fancy the more expensive one but want to justify it to yourself (or maybe your partner!). I'm afraid it's just make your own mind up just like when you decide what car or house to buy or where you shop or if you fancy new clothes or whatever. There always going to be a reason to justify the decision either way. It's the same deciding when to replace an existing motorhome the wallet says no the heart often says yes . You can list all the upcoming costs of continued ownership and convince yourself it's saving money to replace it forgetting ( conveniently) the knowledge that you will lose way more in depreciation the moment you drive it away from the dealers or man up and just say it's my money to spend and I think I'll enjoy it. I just stick with the same one because I'm tight!

If I had £5 for every time I have traveled the justification route [for me and with Elaine] over the 3-4 weeks since we decided to buy a m/home and a further £5 for each time I said or thought 'That is a hell of a lot of money to commit, is this sensible?', I could almost have paid for the Sunlight in cash!

Interestingly enough, we decided to lookfor a m/home after we had priced up CAMC Guided M/Home Tours to Canada [2022 & 2024] and South Africa [2023], and I remarked casually, 'We could buy our own m/home for what we'll need to save ...'

You can do all the hard nosed, detached analysis that you wish for the purchase cost, depreciation, running costs etc, but the final decision comes from the heart. It's why I use Tig to tug Gobby the Gobur and Swifty, our venerable old lady of a 17 year old Touring Caravan

Steve