Tow cars, fitting, best type, countries and law surrounding the A-FRAME

[Gazza100]

Hi, I am looking to buy a tow car, can anyone advise on which to buy for a tag axle kon Tiki 5t. The rules around using a tow frame abroad and best place to have the work done on the car, thanks in advance

 

[pappajohn]

Most, if not all, European countries forbid A frames especially Spain.
In the UK DVLA class an A framed car as a trailer providing it meets all trailer regs including being able to reverse without undue drag...... Unless fitted with electric brakes very difficult to meet that reg.
You also need to know your combined towing limit, some van converters lower or delete the train weight altogether.
Others use chassis extensions which aren't suitable for a towbar and cost more to have the chassis modified.

 

[Realist]

A frames over seas is a no go needs to be on a trailer.
A frames here in the U.K. is a salty subject for some and I wait for the replies but to start I would first look at what car you want to pull and go from their.

Then look at weights then look for the frame.

 

[Geo]

Whats an A frame?

 

[Geo]

These are the best of the best
Trying to get a price from Daimler Mercedes
They dont seem to be taking me seriously despite telling em there might be a couple more interested on here

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[Realist]

Serious question the OP needed answers to and already the funny comments have started.

Sorry Gazza100.

 

[Gazza100]

Thank you all, will look for a trailer for the car as planning to go abroad,

 

[Brains]

Thank you all, will look for a trailer for the car as planning to go abroad,

Check your train weight plate on your van
This will tell you upper limit of the combined weight of the car and trailer.

It might mean you are looking for a Smart Car rather than stretch limo

 

[donnkim]

We are on our 4th. Kia Picanto all on Kia’s PCP. We have changed the car every 2 to 3 years.
We now have the Picanto GTLine which has everything one needs in a small car. It even has heated steering wheel. So when this PCP comes to an end next year we will just pay it off and keep the car.

 

[Geo]

Serious question the OP needed answers to and already the funny comments have started.

Sorry Gazza100.

You see Gaza read the first post
strange as you confirmed it in post two

Can we please have confirmation that A frames are ok in the uk but not abroad

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[Realist]

A frame Police are about be careful.

 

[Lenny HB]

Serious question the OP needed answers to and already the funny comments have started.

Sorry Gazza100.

What do you expect A Frames Threads are like a Toilet thread.

 

[Realist]

lol yeh agreed magnets even.

What do you expect A Frames Threads are like a Toilet thread.

 

[Geo]

Can we have a sense of humour transplant reqd, button please I'll pay
Was thinking of going to Venice is it ok to tow a Gondola on a A frame please

 

[Manic]

At the cost of A frame set-ups go up, if trailer storage and van towing weights not an issue then a trailer makes more sense now.

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[busby]

What do you expect A Frames Threads are like a Toilet thread.

Or Gassing,,not had one for ages.BUSBY

 

[Charlie9038]

Hi Gaza, I just had lnb towbars @ Bristol convert my Abarth, they did an excellent job and am very happy with it, the other company I looked at were towbars2towcars in Grimsby both use electronic braking which both companies claim is legal in Europe but there is a whole debate on this.

if any funsters have been fined using lnb or tb2tc a frame systems abroad I would like to know.

I did look at trailer options but as there is no more room on my drive and sites decided on the a frame route.

I expect the a frame haters will challenge this but I am really happy with what we have and will probably not use it abroad anyway as prefer the ok at the moment

 

[pappajohn]

I looked at were towbars2towcars in Grimsby both use electronic braking which both companies claim is legal in Europe

Electric braking is permissible in Europe..... But A frames still aren't.
It's even written into Spanish motoring law..... No self propelled vehicle shall tow another self propelled vehicle.
This even applies to official breakdown companies.
One manufacturer went as far as giving a document in numorous languages claiming as they were 'legal' in the UK therefore legal anywhere with a UK registered vehicle.
Not worth the paper it was printed on.

 

[Charlie9038]

Electric braking is permissible in Europe..... But A frames still aren't.
It's even written into Spanish motoring law..... No self propelled vehicle shall tow another self propelled vehicle.
This even applies to official breakdown companies.

Ok but the loophole is it’s classed as a trailer.

Won’t be going to Spain anyway but would be interested in anyone that has been pulled and fined for using lnb a frame.

 

[PeteH]

Marmite anyone?.

Spanish plod has epic fit?.

To be serious:-
I have posted this before, and is my personal experience of the use of a perfectly good "tool".:-

"The use or not of the "A" frame on the European mainland has been well documented over many years. Those of us who have indeed done both trailing and framing, are well aware that since about 2000 the Spanish and Portuguese Constabularies have indeed been clamping down, and I am advised by those who I am still in contact with that it has got more prevalent since the "bust" of 2007-8.

I would no longer consider an "A" frame in Europe, largely because they are congenitally stupid in their legal system, which is based on the ravings of the "little man" (Napoleon). The Vienna convention or whatever is not the legal basis of of the EU. The fundamental document is the Rome Treaty. Part of which acknowledges that for the convenience of all. something which is permitted in a member country should be tolerated in ALL the EU states when used by a VISITOR. (note not a resident), and was originally aimed at not making Tourist travel so inconvenient that tourism would be affected. The UK for years accepted over-width German Caravans even though domestically they where illegal. So TECHNICALLY the Sales men are correct, However. The Spanish and Portuguese (in particular but not exclusively) are adept at ignoring that which they do not like, hence their regular fishing up to the UK beaches! with under-size nets.

Technically, an "A" frame IS a better tool for the job, and only fails in that they are difficult (but not impossible) to reverse more than a few feet. Has an insignificant accident record, far less than Trailer Wreck's. And is proven by the large numbers that are successfully, and safely, used in the USA, where their use outnumbers trailer use by large margin.

This "discussion" will run and run, but unfortunately "A" frame use on the European mainland will eventually die completely. And that saddens me, another bit of freedom gone, whittled away by overzealous bureaucrats.

AND:-
As someone who started caravanning circa 1970. And went to a R-V, when they told my wife she should no longer travel long distances without regular breaks, May I say:- I have "Toaded" all over the USA, 15000+miles in fact. Where the practice is universally accepted. I have never been able to understand the "European Phobia" against the practice. But then, That`s Europe!. (Stupidity personified IMHO). The pro`s and cons are well known, and as (allegedly) free persons we can make educated choices according to our will. There are known arguments for and against the practice. Having recently returned to the use of a Motor-home, after a 3 year break during which we had a Caravan, that which we discarded largely because neither myself nor my (disabled) wife could sit comfortably in the Seating, whereas now we have a "Captains" chair each with a leg-rest (side bench). I tow an old Punto on "A" frame. AND IT WORKS FOR US!. It is however a Grey area. having (unlike "Dolly" Frames) never been tested in the law courts. BTW, I Know from experience that my (now) rig is far quicker to set -up than a Caravan!. Unless or until they are the subject of a "test" case (as happened with "Dolly" frames) then the legality is not an issue. Any debate as to the "technical" aspect of use is just that, a debate!.

BTW. US Style "tow dollys" are completely reversible!. I know, I brought a Rental car from Florida to Texas on a "U-Haul" one, Behind the R-V when we Bought It!, It is also IMHO an even better device than an "A" frame but has been judged as "legal only for the recovery of disabled vehicles" by the Courts Circa 1975ish.

IF, I decide in the future to go back to Spain, as we did for many years prior to choosing the USA. I would likely buy a Smart and Trailer it, JUST to avoid the hassle of being "pulled" by Spanish "plod" (3 times). Someone makes (made) a trailer with a folding Draw bar, and that would take up the least space on site. ( one guy I know, put plywood base on the trailer and used it for a Gazebo, to Barbecue in / on!).

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[pappajohn]

Ok but the loophole is it’s classed as a trailer.

No, isn't.
That classification is only the opinion of DVLA in the UK and it has no standing in law anyway.
Until there is a court precedent it will never be law.
It's still a self ptopelled vehicle whichever way you paint it.

 

[Charlie9038]

No, isn't.
That classification is only the opinion of DVLA in the UK and it has no standing in law anyway.
Until there is a court precedent it will never be law.
It's still a self ptopelled vehicle whichever way you paint it.

Yes but as a visitor to Europe from the uk the loophole allows me to use the legal uk system, guess I will only be convinced when someone with lnb system gets fined for using their a frame in Europe, is that yourself?

 

[Just smiffy]

Not sure on what your need is for a toad, but have you thought of e-bikes..? Easy to handle and transport, cheaper then a toad and can do an average of 30-50 miles.... and if you need to go further then you might as well go in the motorhome and park there to explore the area....

on the occasions you need a car you could hire one for the short time...

 

[gus-lopez]

Won’t be going to Spain anyway but would be interested in anyone that has been pulled and fined for using lnb a frame.

Do you not read the various threads where people have stated that they have been fined & made to unhitch?

Yes but as a visitor to Europe from the uk the loophole allows me to use the legal uk system, guess I will only be convinced when someone with lnb system gets fined for using their a frame in Europe, is that yourself?

No it doesn't .It isn't a legal loophole just an untested rule in the UK. here as pappajohn pointed out you cannot legally tow another vehicle. except a short distance to a place of safety if necessary.
Even if the trafico accept it is a trailer whilst connected the instant you disconnect it you are admitting that it is a self propelled vehicle?

 

[pappajohn]

Yes but as a visitor to Europe from the uk the loophole allows me to use the legal uk system, guess I will only be convinced when someone with lnb system gets fined for using their a frame in Europe, is that yourself?

No, it isn't legal, nor illegal, in the UK as nobody has been prosecuted for using one so no court precedent as been set.
It's ACCEPTED by DVLA but that has no legal footing. . Its only their opinion.
The old chestnut about legal in home country so legal everywhere has no standing either.
What your implying is you can drive on the left in Europe because we drive on the left in the UK.
If you search the threads here you will find quite a few have been made to unhitch or face prosecution particularly in Spain
If you want to risk it that's your choice but many have in the past and now don't for these very reasons.

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[Pelirocco]

We were originally going for an A frame for our Aygo,but decided on a trailer as we want to travel into Europe at some time .We found a single axle trailer just the right size for the car ,easy to load and pull .Storage isn't a problem which helps of course and he has hgv so that helps

 

[Realist]

Sorry OP i did say the A Frame Police would comment.

 

[PeteH]

There are plenty of ways to gain independence when the motorhome is not available. From walking, bikes, e bikes, car rental, public transport. All have their place but not all can be accessed by those with mobility issues.
Over the year I tried car rental, worked better in the USA than Europe. But in the end framing a car in the uk and America was the the most suitable option. IF, and it's a big if, I get to go to Europe again. I will be looking at a small car and suitable trailer. Saves the haste of being pulled which happened twice the last time out circa 2007.

 

[busby]

Yes but as a visitor to Europe from the uk the loophole allows me to use the legal uk system, guess I will only be convinced when someone with lnb system gets fined for using their a frame in Europe, is that yourself?

Think some salesman has been trying to sell you an A Frame and is telling porkies.BUSBY.

 

[Reallyretired]

Many tag axle motorhomes have next to no towing capacity. Check the weight plate as the second axle increases the gvw but the train weight remains the same so towing weight reduced.

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