Seat belts in France. (1 Viewer)

[TMFTM]

I currently own a 4 berth Motorhome registered in 2007 before compulsory seat belts were fitted in the rear seating area. I have been told that fitting retrospective anchor points was extremely difficult if not nigh on impossible.
I understood that as there were no belts fitted prior to compulsory regulation, I could not face prosecution if passengers were not wearing seat belts.
We are planning to go to France this summer, with passengers but I was advised by a Motorhome specialist this morning that it is illegal to carry passengers without seat belts regardless of the age of the vehicle. Is this the case?
I have tried searching for an answer on the Internet but the rules appear to be fairly vague.
Please can someone advise and confirm the current situation for me?

 

[Boringfrog]

https://www.ukmotorhomes.net/motorhome-faqs/motorhome-seatbelts

 

[TMFTM]

Thanks for that. The question still remains;
Is there the same assumption in French law?
Can seat belts be retrospectively fitted safely regardless of the vehicle?

 

[Deleted member 29692]

Forget the law. Are you really happy to risk carrying unbelted passengers?

 

[TMFTM]

Forget the law. Are you really happy to risk carrying unbelted passengers?

No, but I was informed that the retrospective fitting of seat belts in older vehicles was ineffective. Is that the case?

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[Deleted member 29692]

No, but I was informed that the retrospective fitting of seat belts in older vehicles was ineffective. Is that the case?

Unless proper anchor points are available, which they probably won’t be, it’s impossible. Anchor point means fixing to structural metalwork, i.e. chassis. Anything that’s part of the habitation conversion will not be suitable as a fixing point.

Even then it might not be relevant. Look on your V5 and somewhere near the top the number of travelling seats will be specified. You can’t carry more people than that no matter what. It doesn’t matter if you have seat belts, 8 point race harnesses or ejector seats. It would probably be easier to buy a new van than get the DVLA to change that number.

 

[Chockswahay]

It's not what you want to hear, but Nick is giving you the brutal truth

I also agree, why would you want to put anyone at risk without safety belts It's just not worth it.....

 

[Reallyretired]

The official seat belts in the back of our mh, which are used only for the dogs, have quite a substantial metal frame to which they are attached. I'm not convinced that seat belts add much safety to a vehicle where in a sudden stop such as a head on collision you could get a stuffed fridge hit you in the back of the head. The general construction of motorhomes is not terribly strong.

 

[TMFTM]

Thanks everyone, that is exactly what I needed to know, even the brutal honesty!
Naively, I thought 4 berth meant 4 people could legally travel. I even mentioned what our intentions were to the main dealer we bought the vehicle from and did not think that passengers would be an issue.
This is our first Motorhome so I suppose you live and learn. We were intending to keep it for 5 years or so but that plan may have to be re-assessed!

 

[Macca1954]

We have 2 grankids and our main priority when looking for our van was seat belts and safety. When the grankids grow out of our company then we can get what we want. Do feel better when they are strapped in

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[tonka]

Look on your V5 and somewhere near the top the number of travelling seats will be specified. You can’t carry more people than that no matter what. It doesn’t matter if you have seat belts, 8 point race harnesses or ejector seats. It would probably be easier to buy a new van than get the DVLA to change that number.

Just for info.. Not all V5 show this, it's a later change and may well tie in with the legalisation that came in 2007 ?..
Think it was October 2007...

 

[Just smiffy]

Thanks everyone, that is exactly what I needed to know, even the brutal honesty!
Naively, I thought 4 berth meant 4 people could legally travel. I even mentioned what our intentions were to the main dealer we bought the vehicle from and did not think that passengers would be an issue.
This is our first Motorhome so I suppose you live and learn. We were intending to keep it for 5 years or so but that plan may have to be re-assessed!

The dealer was wrong... he told you what you wanted to hear for a sale....

 

[pappajohn]

You won't be prosecuted for passengers over 18 not wearing a belt, the passenger will be though.
It's the passengers responsibility not yours. .

 

[TMFTM]

The dealer was wrong... he told you what you wanted to hear for a sale....

I know that now.......... Isn't hindsight great!

 

[Just smiffy]

I know that now.......... Isn't hindsight great!

Trust me I learnt the hard way too....

Look on the bright side, sometimes you’ll be glad you can’t take passengers....

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[WESTY66]

Unless proper anchor points are available, which they probably won’t be, it’s impossible. Anchor point means fixing to structural metalwork, i.e. chassis. Anything that’s part of the habitation conversion will not be suitable as a fixing point.

Even then it might not be relevant. Look on your V5 and somewhere near the top the number of travelling seats will be specified. You can’t carry more people than that no matter what. It doesn’t matter if you have seat belts, 8 point race harnesses or ejector seats. It would probably be easier to buy a new van than get the DVLA to change that number.

Not so, I own a 2015 Elddis Encore with the "legal" pop up seats with 3 point seat belt under the bench seats and yes they fasten round the chassis underneath but on my V5 it says 2 travelling seats including driver.

Ady

 

[Deleted member 29692]

Not so, I own a 2015 Elddis Encore with the "legal" pop up seats with 3 point seat belt under the bench seats and yes they fasten round the chassis underneath but on my V5 it says 2 travelling seats including driver.

Ady

If they aren’t on the V5 they aren’t travelling seats

If they are retrofit and haven’t been inspected and signed off with the relevant paperwork completed they aren’t legal.

I don’t care what anyone has told you or sold you.

 

[scotzsue]

Just as important is insurance, all the insurances we have had state that we are only insured to carry the number of people stipulated on the V5.

 

[Jimbohorlicks]

You would also need to check with your insurers. If you had an accident you may well be personally liable and your insurance null and void

 

[yodeli]

In France , you have a number on the "carte grise" french official paper , called S1 which is the number of "sitting places" which means number of people allowed to sit in the van while on the road.

Mine says 4

I have only 2 seats belts. Mine and my cabin passenger's:
Law: I can take 4 people
Decision: Up to me and mainly to my 2 extra passengers. Easy !
Insurance here has nothing to say.

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[WESTY66]

If they aren’t on the V5 they aren’t travelling seats

If they are retrofit and haven’t been inspected and signed off with the relevant paperwork completed they aren’t legal.

I don’t care what anyone has told you or sold you.

Factory fitted from brand new by Elddis,

http://www.elddis.co.uk/why-choose-elddis/motorhome-safety

I thought that was pretty conclusive, if not (and I am no expert), who's dropped the clanger?? elddis or the dvla for not putting 4 seats on the V5. So I will have to investigate further as I bought it to carry 3 of us??
@NickNic I do value your opinions, as you might be right and I could have just wasted 40k.

Ady

 

[Deleted member 29692]

Factory fitted from brand new by Elddis,

http://www.elddis.co.uk/why-choose-elddis/motorhome-safety

I thought that was pretty conclusive, if not (and I am no expert), who's dropped the clanger?? elddis or the dvla for not putting 4 seats on the V5. So I will have to investigate further as I bought it to carry 3 of us??
@NickNic I do value your opinions, as you might be right and I could have just wasted 40k.

Ady

If you think it’s the DVLA’s mistake ask them to change it. If you’re right you won’t have an issue.

Regarding Eldiss if they told me the sky is blue I’d assume they were lying. Their marketing literature is on the same level of credibility as the Daily Star.

My guess is that they’ve fitted these “seatbelts” in the full knowledge that they aren’t legal so haven’t even tried to get them registered as travelling seats.

They then rely on their victims customers not knowing any better to con them into believing the sales patter.

 

[tonka]

Factory fitted from brand new by Elddis,

http://www.elddis.co.uk/why-choose-elddis/motorhome-safety

I thought that was pretty conclusive, if not (and I am no expert), who's dropped the clanger?? elddis or the dvla for not putting 4 seats on the V5. So I will have to investigate further as I bought it to carry 3 of us??
@NickNic I do value your opinions, as you might be right and I could have just wasted 40k.

Ady

Do you not have a certificate of conformity ( you should with a new van) I think it's stated on there. If it is then maybe a mistake made by the dealer when they did the registration.

 

[WESTY66]

Do you not have a certificate of conformity ( you should with a new van) I think it's stated on there. If it is then maybe a mistake made by the dealer when they did the registration.

I didn't buy it new!

CoC says 4 including driver??

@NickNic I don't think Elddis are alone using seats like this, do Chausson not offer something similar?

Ady

 

[Ridgeway]

We have 6 belts in ours from the factory but our V5 equivalent says 5, this is because to have the 6th seat eligible we need to upgrade to 3650kgs so we only use 5 seats.

This is why my Mother-in-Law has to travel in the shower

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[gus-lopez]

In France , you have a number on the "carte grise" french official paper , called S1 which is the number of "sitting places" which means number of people allowed to sit in the van while on the road.

Mine says 4

I have only 2 seats belts. Mine and my cabin passenger's:
Law: I can take 4 people
Decision: Up to me and mainly to my 2 extra passengers. Easy !
Insurance here has nothing to say.

Same in Spain. Mine is the same, 4 but only 2belts

 

[tonka]

I didn't buy it new!

CoC says 4 including driver??

@NickNic I don't think Elddis are alone using seats like this, do Chausson not offer something similar?

Ady

If it was me then i would get it changed on the V5 to match
On the V5 is a section for changes, including one for number of seats.. I would put "4" in the needed box. copy of the C of C and an explanation letter that it may have been registered wrong. Keep a copy of the V5 as well before you send it..
https://www.gov.uk/change-vehicle-details-registration-certificate

 

[WESTY66]

Do you not have a certificate of conformity ( you should with a new van) I think it's stated on there. If it is then maybe a mistake made by the dealer when they did the registration.

Letter, V5 and copy of CoC sent off to DVLA, I'll keep you posted, All copies retained

Ady

 

[WESTY66]

If you think it’s the DVLA’s mistake ask them to change it. If you’re right you won’t have an issue.

If it was me then i would get it changed on the V5 to match
On the V5 is a section for changes, including one for number of seats.. I would put "4" in the needed box. copy of the C of C and an explanation letter that it may have been registered wrong. Keep a copy of the V5 as well before you send it..
https://www.gov.uk/change-vehicle-details-registration-certificate

Well log book (V5) back today and its been amended from 2 to 4 travel seats

 

[GAVLAD]

I appreciate the importance of wearing a seat belt and in my line of work, I’ve been at the front end of witnessing the difference between a passenger who had and a passenger who hadn’t been wearing one at collision.
That said, if we have to be brutally honest, a side impact into a Motorhome with point of impact being behind the cab section (doors and B post) - it ain’t going to make much of a difference.
The side is like a Caravan build, not a car build, the window provides zero protection and would probably pop in or out. The seats are not tested for impacts like a car seat and the cushions in most cases are loose fit and held in place by velcro so they can be converted to a bed.
The only positive would be from a front end impact whereby the belt stops the passenger flying forward.

I retro fit seat belts in my previous camper van - A 1974 VW Bay window.
But this had factor fit anchor points already fitted whereas some older Motorhomes don’t.
You could be doing more harm creating your anchor point and retro fitting than not bothering.

It would be interesting to learn of those who have commented whether they do carry passengers in the rear? Or if they travel as a couple.

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